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Old
02-21-2012, 03:50 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by master4071 View Post
It's for 13/14, not 12/13...Fowler will have three full years of experience...Sbisa too and hopefully Schultz and Vatnen will see some NHL action in 12/13...Stuart and Beauch as a veteran guys...
Even if Schultz and Vatanen end up as good NHL players, I don't know that those combinations of players would be able to handle a playoff atmosphere. That's a blue line that I could see getting manhandled. Sure, when they have the puck they'll be dangerous, but that doesn't seem like a blue line that can handle the boardwork.

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02-22-2012, 10:21 AM
  #52
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looking good and already has equalled his pt total from last year with 10 games to go

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02-22-2012, 10:56 AM
  #53
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Obvious Cumiskey doesn't belong in our D-corps, just poking fun with the two undersized Offensive d-men on the same pairing lol.

But Fowler, Schultz, Sbisa, Vatanen, Beauchemin, (Trouba, Dumba, Clark, Stuart, whoever) is a pretty solid D-corps in two years. If Schultz and Vatanen pan out obviously

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02-22-2012, 11:08 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ShadowDuck View Post
Obvious Cumiskey doesn't belong in our D-corps, just poking fun with the two undersized Offensive d-men on the same pairing lol.

But Fowler, Schultz, Sbisa, Vatanen, Beauchemin, (Trouba, Dumba, Clark, Stuart, whoever) is a pretty solid D-corps in two years. If Schultz and Vatanen pan out obviously
Yeah, I like the possibility of having puck-moving defender in every pair. I would also like to see a defensive defender as a 7th defenceman so if they are playing against a offensive team, one of the puck-moving defenceman could be switch places with a defensive one for the game. Clark or Brookbank or Guenin could do this job. I like the possible combinations that could be used on PP units. Fowler might even be put on 2nd unit, atleast Vatanen and Schultz should challenge him for top unit minutes.

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02-22-2012, 12:57 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...aa_defensemen/

He's also been hailed as the best defenseman not playing in the NHL. Even if the praise is a bit off base, if he's any where close, that's still a hell of a player.
Yes Schultz is having a great season. Probably the best college defenseman. Not denying that.

As to best defenseman not in the NHL, who said that? Is it someone credible? I have seen a Ducks blog and a person covering college prospects say that, but there's the worry of bias. I'd like to know if there are unbiased sources saying it, because that would change my thinking some.

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Schultz is overrated? How often have you watched him play? very perplexing statement, he's by far the best defensemen I have seen in college hockey the last two years
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Schultz will be on the team next year, no doubt in my mind, he is that good. He will blow alot of people away once they see him. Vatanen will need a year to adjust but he's a stud in in his own right. He's so competitive, that I think he'll make it and reach his potential.
I already said it, but I have not seen Schultz at all. So yes I could be totally off.

When I say overrated I mean less in overall potential, where I do think Schultz is deservedly rated high. I mean more in terms of NHL readiness, and I'm mostly going off of the quality of the leagues. I also think Vatanen is underrated compared to Schultz. College is just not an easy league to jump directly into the NHL. It really prepares kids physically and defensively, but I think it is a bigger jump than the top European leagues.

Just for comparison, here's the past Hobey finalist defensmen and how long it took them to make the NHL. I started from the lockout.
  1. 2005 Reid Cashman. Never made the NHL.
  2. 2006 Matt Carle. Rookie D scoring leader in first year.
  3. 2006 Andy Greene. 23 NHL games in first year.
  4. 2007 Drew Bagnell. 3 years before his first NHL game, still not in NHL.
  5. 2009 Matt Gilroy. NHL first year.
  6. 2009 Jamie McBain. 14 NHL games first year. Had a pretty good "Calder eligible year" next season.
  7. 2010 Brendan Smith. 3 NHL games his second year. Still 2nd year, back in the AHL.

Going back further, look at other standouts. Liles played 5 AHL games, but made NHL first season and did quite well. Rookie D scoring leader and 16 min a game. Rafalski played in Europe for 4 years. Leopold made the league his first year, 20 minutes. Mottau played 18 NHL games his first year.

So I guess it's possible to come in and do well from college. Maybe 40%?

The way I look at it is they're both tearing up their own leagues. I just think Finland's top league is better. Being the youngest player to win the best defenseman award is pretty nice too. And I think Vatanen has been outperforming his league a little more than Schultz. But then it's not taking so much account as their actual abilities since I can't see them. So I'm ready to be wrong.


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Originally Posted by JabbaJabba View Post
Yeah, I like the possibility of having puck-moving defender in every pair. I would also like to see a defensive defender as a 7th defenceman so if they are playing against a offensive team, one of the puck-moving defenceman could be switch places with a defensive one for the game. Clark or Brookbank or Guenin could do this job. I like the possible combinations that could be used on PP units. Fowler might even be put on 2nd unit, atleast Vatanen and Schultz should challenge him for top unit minutes.
Personal taste, but I prefer to have 4 defensive and/or 2-way types and 2 offensive guys. I just think it's more important to have depth for PK pairings than PP pairings.

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02-22-2012, 01:07 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
I already said it, but I have not seen Schultz at all. So yes I could be totally off.
Why are you arguing about Schultz if you have never seen him play? And I think someone on TSN said Schultz is the best hockey player not in the NHL.

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02-22-2012, 01:09 PM
  #57
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Pretty sure it was Craig Button.

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02-22-2012, 01:24 PM
  #58
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Craig Button lists Justin Schultz as the Ducks best prospect:

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9811

And here are a few quotes related to Justin Schultz:

Quote:
One important thing to point out before we get to some of the potential answers for this question is that, while it appears there’s a lack of elite teams, there’s no shortage of elite players in college hockey right now.

Wisconsin’s Justin Schultz might be one of the best players not in the NHL right now. First rounders like Boston College’s Chris Kreider, Colorado College’s Jaden Schwartz and Minnesota’s Nick Bjugstad are still doing big things.
http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2012...e-elites-gone/

Quote:
Schultz's coach at the University of Wisconsin says the West Kelowna native is at least amongst the top 5 players in the NCAA.

"He is a dominant player on the ice," said coach Mike Eaves. "He's one of those guys that can and does control the pace of the game. Our coaching staff believes he is definitely in the top five for sure."

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Old
02-22-2012, 04:25 PM
  #59
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Kinda funny, I just watched some highlight reels of this Schultz guy, and I noticed some similarities with Vatanen. Schultz just seems to use his wrist shot more often, while Vatanen depends more heavily on his slap shot. Obviously it is hard to get any broader picture of Schultz when relying only on those clips, but yeah, jolly good job Justin.

I'm pretty lousy at writing it all down in the first time, or the second, so I might be hanging around here commenting every now and then. Anyways, and what I initially wanted to write, was, that there has been some doubts in Finnish hockey forums about how well Vatanen can adapt to more physical game in NHL, and some see that a minor issue. Hitherto (I just read some good ol' Hobbes and this word sounded so cool... ok, this sounded pretty gay but anywho) no one has crushed him on ice, due to his pretty well-balanced skating he usually just jumps up a bit or just avoids the hit. But on open ice that might be pretty different.

All this said... If I were the coach, anyhow, I wouldn't put more than two of this kind in the same lineup. Vatanen still makes some weird mistakes in the d-zone, although rarely, and needs a solid defensive d-man on his side.

E: Oh yeah, and what the statistics don't show is that Sami creates loads of penalties for the opponent, too. So it's not only the points that should be noticed.


Last edited by Sigismund: 02-22-2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Never learn...
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02-23-2012, 05:17 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigismund View Post
Kinda funny, I just watched some highlight reels of this Schultz guy, and I noticed some similarities with Vatanen. Schultz just seems to use his wrist shot more often, while Vatanen depends more heavily on his slap shot. Obviously it is hard to get any broader picture of Schultz when relying only on those clips, but yeah, jolly good job Justin.

I'm pretty lousy at writing it all down in the first time, or the second, so I might be hanging around here commenting every now and then. Anyways, and what I initially wanted to write, was, that there has been some doubts in Finnish hockey forums about how well Vatanen can adapt to more physical game in NHL, and some see that a minor issue. Hitherto (I just read some good ol' Hobbes and this word sounded so cool... ok, this sounded pretty gay but anywho) no one has crushed him on ice, due to his pretty well-balanced skating he usually just jumps up a bit or just avoids the hit. But on open ice that might be pretty different.

All this said... If I were the coach, anyhow, I wouldn't put more than two of this kind in the same lineup. Vatanen still makes some weird mistakes in the d-zone, although rarely, and needs a solid defensive d-man on his side.

E: Oh yeah, and what the statistics don't show is that Sami creates loads of penalties for the opponent, too. So it's not only the points that should be noticed.
Very true. Often opponents can't keep up with him and they have to hook him down resulting in a penalty.

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02-23-2012, 06:44 AM
  #61
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I'm a little worried about our future D as we only seem to have ofd's.I think we need more Dfd's like Trouba,Luke schenn and jared tinordi.

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02-23-2012, 07:10 AM
  #62
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I'm a little worried about our future D as we only seem to have ofd's.I think we need more Dfd's like Trouba,Luke schenn and jared tinordi.
nothing to worry about. We have Clark who will enter his first games at the big club next season IMHO. We have Welinski who is a great two way prospect. We have Kevin Lind, a player I'm really high on. We have Josh Manson. We also have Hegart, who could be a stay at home defender one day.

So a lot of our D. prospects are defense first type of players. We really have a good core there.

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02-23-2012, 07:46 AM
  #63
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nothing to worry about. We have Clark who will enter his first games at the big club next season IMHO. We have Welinski who is a great two way prospect. We have Kevin Lind, a player I'm really high on. We have Josh Manson. We also have Hegart, who could be a stay at home defender one day.

So a lot of our D. prospects are defense first type of players. We really have a good core there.
Yeah, but the offensive D have the biggest potential when the defensive Dmen aren't so hyped. I would like to see the Ducks draft a defensive minded defender in the upcoming draft during the 1st round. On the other hand, Ducks need a 2nd line center and getting Grigorenko etc. would be good too. Although the defence is pretty much set for next year IMO but 2nd line center spot is questionable.

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02-23-2012, 08:02 AM
  #64
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nothing to worry about. We have Clark who will enter his first games at the big club next season IMHO. We have Welinski who is a great two way prospect. We have Kevin Lind, a player I'm really high on. We have Josh Manson. We also have Hegart, who could be a stay at home defender one day.

So a lot of our D. prospects are defense first type of players. We really have a good core there.
In a perfect world when every single prospect drafted pans out.

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02-23-2012, 08:09 AM
  #65
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He's second in defenseman scoring with 30 points. He is five points behind the lead but has played 12 games less. Tied for the lead in goals by D with 11. Averages 23.55 TOI. Likely wins the Pekka Rautakallio trophy for defenseman of the year IMO.

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02-23-2012, 08:15 AM
  #66
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In a perfect world when every single prospect drafted pans out.
How much have to? Beauchemin and Sbisa are both great two way guys. Fowler is on the way to become it. Clark is not so far away and improoved a lot and will be a 7th defensman next year and a third pairing player the year after. Plus we still can sign a defensive defenseman at FA. Overall we will have some spots openend on D and one or two out of my list above will be enough. The depth is there.

And to be honest, I see Justin Schultz as a Duncan Keith type of player not as Mike Green 2.0

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02-23-2012, 08:28 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
Yes Schultz is having a great season. Probably the best college defenseman. Not denying that.

As to best defenseman not in the NHL, who said that? Is it someone credible? I have seen a Ducks blog and a person covering college prospects say that, but there's the worry of bias. I'd like to know if there are unbiased sources saying it, because that would change my thinking some.



I already said it, but I have not seen Schultz at all. So yes I could be totally off.

When I say overrated I mean less in overall potential, where I do think Schultz is deservedly rated high. I mean more in terms of NHL readiness, and I'm mostly going off of the quality of the leagues. I also think Vatanen is underrated compared to Schultz. College is just not an easy league to jump directly into the NHL. It really prepares kids physically and defensively, but I think it is a bigger jump than the top European leagues.

Just for comparison, here's the past Hobey finalist defensmen and how long it took them to make the NHL. I started from the lockout.
  1. 2005 Reid Cashman. Never made the NHL.
  2. 2006 Matt Carle. Rookie D scoring leader in first year.
  3. 2006 Andy Greene. 23 NHL games in first year.
  4. 2007 Drew Bagnell. 3 years before his first NHL game, still not in NHL.
  5. 2009 Matt Gilroy. NHL first year.
  6. 2009 Jamie McBain. 14 NHL games first year. Had a pretty good "Calder eligible year" next season.
  7. 2010 Brendan Smith. 3 NHL games his second year. Still 2nd year, back in the AHL.
You have to put the list in context. Some of them have specific deficiencies as to why they have not translated to the NHL, Be it size, talent level or being older than everyone at the time. Your point is well taken but it's not like its just us duck fans hyping him....almost everyone who posts on HF that has watched him play thinks he's really good and "pundits" do to

Schultz has been dominating since he was a sophmore, he won his conference defensive player of the year last season, in his 2nd year. Matt Carle many people thought was going to be a big time player, but he's settled into being a solid top 4 guy.

McBain and Smith are both highly thought of, and come from the same program
Schultz has all the tools, he has good size, great skating and offensive abilities but also has the IQ necessary to succeed. Everyone raves about Gardiner, well Schultz outperformed him last year with less college experience

As for defensive defensemen, I don't like using high picks on them, more often than not alot of guys taken after them end up being better. 2008 is a great example, Schenn and Tuebert for instance went ahead of MUCH better players taken later because they were "safe" or were seen as more easily projectable. Schenn has had his moments but hasn't been good this year, and many think Tuebert at best is a 3rd pair guy. We will find some stay at home guys eventually, I would much rather take chances on guys with clearly more talent and it could pay off. Schultz/Vatanen are great prospects, Sbisa and Fowler will be tremendous foundations and Welinski is a very interesting player going forward, he's had a monster year and taken a big step forward, I hope to see some of him soon


Last edited by KEEROLE Vatanen: 02-23-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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02-23-2012, 10:29 AM
  #68
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  1. *]2009 Jamie McBain. 14 NHL games first year. Had a pretty good "Calder eligible year" next season.
  2. 2010 Brendan Smith. 3 NHL games his second year. Still 2nd year, back in the AHL.
I personally think Justin is above those 2. Hockey sense aside, he is superior in skating, passing and shooting. I think he is also smarter than those two. In his prime I def. see him as a top pairing defenseman. Right now I would play him on the 3rd and next season with Sbisa from time to time. I know Gardiner has made a jump this season but Justin is the better player and I think he will make the same kind of contribution to the Ducks. I will not put him on the same level as Cam but I believe that both have tremendous upsides.

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02-23-2012, 11:01 AM
  #69
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You're far better off having too many PMD prospects than too many defensive D prospects. They won't all pan out regardless and a PMD will typically gain much larger return in a trade.

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02-23-2012, 11:02 AM
  #70
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How much have to? Beauchemin and Sbisa are both great two way guys. Fowler is on the way to become it. Clark is not so far away and improoved a lot and will be a 7th defensman next year and a third pairing player the year after. Plus we still can sign a defensive defenseman at FA. Overall we will have some spots openend on D and one or two out of my list above will be enough. The depth is there.

And to be honest, I see Justin Schultz as a Duncan Keith type of player not as Mike Green 2.0
Clark can be #1 or #12 but he certainly wont be #7 in next few years imo. He`s still young and he have to play, not sit on the bench. It`s AHL for next couple of years for him imo.

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02-23-2012, 11:11 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JohnnyDuck93 View Post
I'm a little worried about our future D as we only seem to have ofd's.I think we need more Dfd's like Trouba,Luke schenn and jared tinordi.
Please not Schenn. The way they hail him in Toronto. He'll be expecting a 5+

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02-23-2012, 11:27 AM
  #72
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Clark can be #1 or #12 but he certainly wont be #7 in next few years imo. He`s still young and he have to play, not sit on the bench. It`s AHL for next couple of years for him imo.
Ok, I ment 7th in the sense of first callup!

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02-23-2012, 11:39 AM
  #73
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That's why we should draft Reinhart or Maatta and sign Brad Stuart via FA (after trading Lydman)

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02-23-2012, 12:23 PM
  #74
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That's why we should draft Reinhart or Maatta and sign Brad Stuart via FA (after trading Lydman)
Yeah, I doubt the latter will happen. Unless we trade Visnovsky, our top-4 will be set for next season, and Brad Stuart will most likely make too much for a bottom-pairing role here.

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02-25-2012, 12:37 PM
  #75
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Vatanen had a goal when his team won today 3-1. Now he has 12 for this season which is a new record for him. Now he has 31 points which is his record for points per season.

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