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Will Subban be as good as Karlsson?

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Old
02-23-2012, 10:50 AM
  #51
TheBuriedHab
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Wow... Guys... Come on. I appreciate that there are a few of you who seem to be able to discuss this and be rational, but who would pick Subban over Karlsson at this point. Karlsson has emerged as one of the most electrifying players in the league this year.

For those of you going with the popular belief of "Oh he's a huge defensive liability" bullsh*t, I invite you to watch a game. You clearly haven't. I know RDS only covers the Canadiens or francophone players, but you gotta know what you're talking about before making comments like that. FYI, Mike Green wasn't a defensive liability either.
Actually RDS shows quite a few sens games.

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02-23-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
What a bunch of homers! Subban isn't even close Karlsson.
Try putting this on the main board and see what happens.
Cool. We will keep Subban, Sens fans can keep Karlsson. This is the Habs board..pretty sure every team is biased on their own forum...especially with your top players.

I really don't have an issue with that.

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02-23-2012, 10:55 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Wow... Guys... Come on. I appreciate that there are a few of you who seem to be able to discuss this and be rational, but who would pick Subban over Karlsson at this point. Karlsson has emerged as one of the most electrifying players in the league this year.

For those of you going with the popular belief of "Oh he's a huge defensive liability" bullsh*t, I invite you to watch a game. You clearly haven't. I know RDS only covers the Canadiens or francophone players, but you gotta know what you're talking about before making comments like that. FYI, Mike Green wasn't a defensive liability either.
yeah it's a loaded question: now, would you like karlsson or subban.... duuuuh....

in the future, this is where the results would be closer and where is see subban's game fitting what we need more.

again, nobody is saying subban is better now. merely preference in style of game and extrapolating future progression.

RDS 2 shows a lot of sens games and dude, green is a cluster**** defensively

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02-23-2012, 10:57 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
On this I have to disagree. Mike Green IS most definitely a liability. And he played the worst playoff series I've ever seen an NHL player put together when he played against us a few years back. You are way wrong on this one.
Come on, 76 points and finished +39. You can't base your opinion on one series who happened to be against who again? Case in point. Watch him more. Now, in the 62 games he's played since last year, he has struggled, I'll give you that, but why are you guys (not you specifically) defending Subban's poor season and still think he'll better than Karlsson but there's no excuse for Green and he's a bust at this point? Subban can regain his form but Green can't? That's homerism.

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Actually RDS shows quite a few sens games.
Ya a few. Have you watched them?

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02-23-2012, 10:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post

Ya a few. Have you watched them?
Yup, on sportsnet as well whenever they are on.

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02-23-2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
yeah it's a loaded question: now, would you like karlsson or subban.... duuuuh....

in the future, this is where the results would be closer and where is see subban's game fitting what we need more.

again, nobody is saying subban is better now. merely preference in style of game and extrapolating future progression.

RDS 2 shows a lot of sens games and dude, green is a cluster**** defensively
Fair enough point, however, there hasn't been much from Subban this season to suggest he's progressing in the right direction. His overall play is down, he's had a few issues with teammates and his PIM are up. I'm sure you will try to sugar coat that into his "agitator side", but we're talking about a guy who was your number 1 D-man last year. Surely you dont want your #1 guy spending that much time in the box. Meanwhile, Karlsson has taken huge strides in his progress, so all things are pointing, as of now, towards Karlsson being in a different class now and in the future. As for skillset, I won't argue with you, the Canadiens would be better off with a Shea Weber type player than a Karlsson, but it's like saying Nathan Beaulieu could become this and that and therefore you would rather keep him than have Karlsson instead.

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02-23-2012, 11:05 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
Yup, on sportsnet as well whenever they are on.
And in your opinion, Karlsson is a poor defensive player?

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02-23-2012, 11:08 AM
  #58
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Give it a rest Sens fans.

You're not going to be convincing anyone in this thread.

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02-23-2012, 11:08 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Fair enough point, however, there hasn't been much from Subban this season to suggest he's progressing in the right direction. His overall play is down, he's had a few issues with teammates and his PIM are up. I'm sure you will try to sugar coat that into his "agitator side", but we're talking about a guy who was your number 1 D-man last year. Surely you dont want your #1 guy spending that much time in the box. Meanwhile, Karlsson has taken huge strides in his progress, so all things are pointing, as of now, towards Karlsson being in a different class now and in the future. As for skillset, I won't argue with you, the Canadiens would be better off with a Shea Weber type player than a Karlsson, but it's like saying Nathan Beaulieu could become this and that and therefore you would rather keep him than have Karlsson instead.
Contrary to popular belief development is not always a linear rise upwards. There are bumps in the road. I think most sane habs fans realize this. Remember Price's bad year? How everyone on hf boards was telling us the likes of steve mason was better than he was and how his career was going down the drain? Yea been there done that. I don't take anything anyone sais on hf boards about our players seriously and neither should you. Karlsson is having a great year, I don't know why you feel the need to come on the habs board and thump your chest proclaiming how good he is. We like subban going forward, thats all.

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02-23-2012, 11:10 AM
  #60
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Two young defensemen with one playing insane and one in a slump..the amount of players I could name that slumped early in their career and went on to incredible careers is quite a long list.

It's an opinion. For guys like me, I've followed PK since he was 14-15..so yes of course I have bias towards him. Regardless, he fits our stylistic needs by being physical and in my opinion, a better potential at being more complete.

No one in here is saying Karlsson hasn't been better this year. Both these kids are young, and for all we know Karlsson slumps next year and PK scores 30 goals. There's really no need to insult a fanbase on an opinion though, especially on their own board where you have to expect biased answers.


Last edited by hototogisu: 02-23-2012 at 12:05 PM. Reason: qdp
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02-23-2012, 11:10 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
And in your opinion, Karlsson is a poor defensive player?
His warts in his defensive play are exaggerated. But its not at the level I'd want my number one defense to be. Now that doesn't mean he can't improve it of course.

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02-23-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
Contrary to popular belief development is not always a linear rise upwards. There are bumps in the road. I think most sane habs fans realize this. Remember Price's bad year? How everyone on hf boards was telling us the likes of steve mason was better than he was and how his career was going down the drain? Yea been there done that. I don't take anything anyone sais on hf boards about our players seriously and neither should you. Karlsson is having a great year, I don't know why you feel the need to come on the habs board and thump your chest proclaiming how good he is. We like subban going forward, thats all.
I think the point we are trying to get across to everyone is that Karlsson ISN'T a defensive liability. And if you really watched some sens game, you would be able to see the same thing.

Sure he has turnovers, but I'd say 95% of the time he is easily able to recover because he's really fast. I've seen him shut down teams top line almost every game. If he really was a defensive liability, he wouldn't be playing 25+ minutes every night.

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02-23-2012, 11:15 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by mat_sens View Post
I think the point we are trying to get across to everyone is that Karlsson ISN'T a defensive liability. And if you really watched some sens game, you would be able to see the same thing.

Sure he has turnovers, but I'd say 95% of the time he is easily able to recover because he's really fast. I've seen him shut down teams top line almost every game. If he really was a defensive liability, he wouldn't be playing 25+ minutes every night.
Thats great, you don't have to convince me that Karlsson isn't a defensive liability. And turnovers are not a big deal for players like Karlsson and Subban since they have the puck on their stick the majority of the game, its bound to happen.

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02-23-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
His warts in his defensive play are exaggerated. But its not at the level I'd want my number one defense to be. Now that doesn't mean he can't improve it of course.
Sure, of course, but he's only 21. But you still see Subban's potential higher? I'll give him the physical play, for sure, but I think so far, Karlsson looks like the better defenseman both offensively and defensively. I do think though that Subban will regain form and be much better than he's shown this year.

I just don't see the need some of you guys seem to have to compare Subban to the better young d-men in this league. Last year it was Doughty, now Karlsson...

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02-23-2012, 11:17 AM
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If your just talking about offensively that's for sure Karlsson is and will be better he has an amazing vision. Karlsson is a lidstromesque guy offensively.

Even defensively the guy has come a long way, it's clears that the guys that says he is a liability doesn't look at him enough he is becoming steady, especially considering the minutes he is playing and he even add some mean streak and grit in his game. Right now, I think Subban is better defensively thought, but that could change even is I see Subban becoming one hell of a two-way guy.

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02-23-2012, 11:19 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by mat_sens View Post
I think the point we are trying to get across to everyone is that Karlsson ISN'T a defensive liability. And if you really watched some sens game, you would be able to see the same thing.

Sure he has turnovers, but I'd say 95% of the time he is easily able to recover because he's really fast. I've seen him shut down teams top line almost every game. If he really was a defensive liability, he wouldn't be playing 25+ minutes every night.

At this present time do you think Karlsson is a better defensive player than Subban is? Everyone knows who the better offensive player is right now and there's no debating that but how would you rate both defensively at this time?

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02-23-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Sure, of course, but he's only 21. But you still see Subban's potential higher? I'll give him the physical play, for sure, but I think so far, Karlsson looks like the better defenseman both offensively and defensively. I do think though that Subban will regain form and be much better than he's shown this year.

I just don't see the need some of you guys seem to have to compare Subban to the better young d-men in this league. Last year it was Doughty, now Karlsson...
We compare them because we feel Subban is every bit as talented as them. I think Subban's offensive game has always been a bit overrated, I think people thought he would be Karlsson good on offense. While I see him more in the mold of 50 pts a year. His defensive game however has come miles from what the general belief was. Once he calms down his game more I believe he can dominate games. In the northeast division I want my number 1 defenseman to be able to match up physically against Boston's big line. Thats why im biased for Subban. Just my opinion. Karlsson is a treat to watch though.

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02-23-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
At this present time do you think Karlsson is a better defensive player than Subban is? Everyone knows who the better offensive player is right now and there's no debating that but how would you rate both defensively at this time?
I would still give Karlsson the edge defensively, he's just a smarter player (just not use "hockey sense"). I wouldn't say he has an overwhelming lead in defensive capabilities though. Thing with Karlsson, and this thread is a perfect example, is the popular belief that he's nothing to write home about defensively, based on nothing but his offensive numbers and perhaps last season, so more reputation than on ice play.

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02-23-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
At this present time do you think Karlsson is a better defensive player than Subban is? Everyone knows who the better offensive player is right now and there's no debating that but how would you rate both defensively at this time?
I'd say they are about on the same level defensively as of NOW. And FYI, I do watch about 50-60 habs games a year.

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02-23-2012, 11:27 AM
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Nope. Karlsson is younger and clearly on another level.

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02-23-2012, 11:29 AM
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Karlsson is miles ahead of Subban offensively. It's not close and it never will be close.

Subban is easily the better defensive player though. Karlsson has improved, he's already better than say, Kaberle in his own end, but I'd still call him a below average defender. He's weak and his decision making, while making strides, still is flawed. He's in Mike Green territory where his offense is so good that not being 100% inept in his own end is forgiveable, but I'd still take a two way defender. Karlsson is nowhere close to being great at both ends right now. He's an exciting talent - guys like Lidstrom and Markov have shown how you can be a good defender if you are a smart player without being overtly physical, but Karlsson has yet to show half the defensive aptitude that Lidstrom has.

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02-23-2012, 11:30 AM
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Come on, 76 points and finished +39. You can't base your opinion on one series who happened to be against who again?
First, the 76 points doesn't mean anything when we're talking about defense.

Secondly, there's a reason that guy didn't win any Norris trophies despite dominating offensively, he didnt' deserve it. Great scorer but poor defensively. That's not a one off postseason series either. It's a flaw in his game that has been there for his entire career.

Third, I couldn't care less who it was against, the guy was terrible. Worst playoff performance by any player I've ever seen. That includes 3rd and 4th liners. I've watched three+ decades of hockey and the guy put on the single worst performance I've ever seen.

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Case in point. Watch him more. Now, in the 62 games he's played since last year, he has struggled, I'll give you that, but why are you guys (not you specifically) defending Subban's poor season and still think he'll better than Karlsson but there's no excuse for Green and he's a bust at this point? Subban can regain his form but Green can't? That's homerism.
Where did I say Green was a 'bust'? I said he was poor defensively. You're jumping all over the place with your arguments here. Mike Green is fantastic for offense and nobody would disagree. But that's not what I challenged you on.

None of this has anything to do with Karlsson btw. As I stated earlier, I haven't seen enough of him to really know what he's like in his own end. Assuming he's average defensively, he's probably deserving of the Norris this year despite Webber's excellent all around play. When you dominate the way Karlsson has, you have to be pretty weak to not deserve to win. But I haven't seen enough of him to be able to judge.

Mike Green on the other hand I have seen enough of to know that he's a liability in his own end. That playoff series is not the only reason but it was a stark showing of just how bad he can play and I'd have serious reservations on putting him on the ice late in the game with a lead. He just flat out makes poor defensive decisions and unlike Karlsson or Subban, this guy is a vet who's been around for a while.

If you're telling me that Green was good defensively though, it gives me reason to doubt your ability to evaluate Karlsson's defensive play. Because if you think Green is good in his own end, you really don't know what you're talking about.

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02-23-2012, 11:30 AM
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if I had to choose between the two, I'd take Subban... but either way both are going to have stellar careers.

This season, Karlsson has emerged as the most dynamic offensive force from the back end in the league, and as Sens fans point out, his defensive liability is much exaggerated.

that said, Subban's play late last season & in the playoffs gave a hint of just how good he can be... and when he's playing at that level, he's a better overall dman than Karlsson imo, granted I'm biased not just by being a habs fan, but by being a sports fan who puts a lot of emphasis on defensive excellence.

Karlsson may very well prove me wrong, and continue improving his defensive play to the point that he is elite in that regard as well, in which case he'd put himself in a position to be one of the greatest Dmen we've seen in a long long time... but if he goes more the route of a Gonchar or Ozolinsh, then it won't be long before Subban firmly establishes himself as the superior overall player.

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02-23-2012, 11:36 AM
  #74
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I'd say they are about on the same level defensively as of NOW. And FYI, I do watch about 50-60 habs games a year.
evidently not enough...

Subban plays a shutdown role on a 14th place team and has still managed to lead his team in scoring for dmen, plays a huge role on the #1 PK unit, he's managed to keep a more than decent +3 rating despite seeing the 6th most shifts amongst ALL NHL players.

Karlsson doesn't carry near the responsibility defensively as Subban does, let's also not forget that Karlsson in his 2nd year last year finished a woeful -30 rating on a 13th place Sens team.

I don't think Subban will ever put up the points Karlsson will, but I don't ever think Karlsson will be as good as Subban is defensively either...

Karlsson gets a ton of rope from McLean who really puts an emphasis on his defense provinding offense.

Subban doesn't have the luxury at even strength and the Habs PP has been brutal this year.

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02-23-2012, 11:37 AM
  #75
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I'd say they are about on the same level defensively as of NOW. And FYI, I do watch about 50-60 habs games a year.
I also watch quite a few Sens games and at this time IMO Subban is the better defensive dman.. He plays a more physical game and a in your face type of defense when playing against the other teams top forwards on a nightly basis. The guy just seems like an absolute pain in the *** to play against as we've seen in his treatment of Crosby.. Anyway that's my 2 cents..

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