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"Aww, that's Nash-ty." Nash Rumors Part V: McKenzie says down to Rangers/Sharks

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Old
02-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
That was part of the problem when the Rangers gave Holik 9 million.

The fans expected him to be more than what he was.
At $9m, you had the right to expect him to be more than a 3rd line center. At $9m, he was not the player he needed to be.
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There are reasons that Columbus gave him that contract, he was the face of their franchise and they bought 6 of his UFA seasons. that all plays into the amount of money he got.
And that is exatly what he is getting paid here. At $7.8, he had better be one of the very best in the league. Not a top-20, but a top-10. If he is not, then he is not worth that money. And it becomes a deadly mistake with a hard cap.
Quote:
The fact is, he's not coming in here to be the leader of this team We have that in place already. He's coming in to address a significant shortfall that the Rangers have and that's legit talent on the top 6, another sniper on the PP and to score goals. He's not coming here to be the face of the New York Rangers. That seat is filled with Henrik and Callahan.
His salary demands that he be the top player on the team (henke aside) and amongst the elite of the elite of the league. Kind of hard to blend into the crowd that way.
Quote:
You can disagree with that all you want. We don't need someone to come in and be THAT guy. We have them in place already
PLD,do you truly believe that Nash is coming here to be just a complimentary player? At $7.8, if something goes wrong, HE is one of the first people the press go to to see what is wrong. He is not blending into the background.

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02-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #727
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not quite that simple. You are talking about moving a major locker room presence and importing someone who is a franchise player. Or supposed to be one. That greatly changes the dynamic. Do you see Nash following Callahan & co? Also, and this cannot be stated enough, EVERY single player falls in line. They ALL play the way
that Torts wants them to play.
There is no deviation at all. If they
deviate, they are gone. Look at
Wolski. They are ALL held 100%
accountable and there is not one
player that escapes Torts. Now
import a $7.8m Nash. Is he willing
to play "defense-first" and
subjugate his offense? Is he
willing to be like every one else
and battle for every square inch?
Or is he hanging at the blue line,
and not back checking?
Brad Richards is no Defensive Dynamo . just saying

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02-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #728
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You guys have the pieces necessary to win a cup. You don't need Rick Nash. Couple reinforcements maybe, particularly on D (not too up-to-date on Sauer's condition and Staal's play.)

Sather should not be talking about Nash right now.

Now, say they fail to win the cup this season, maybe revisit the talks if Nash is still available. But even then, shouldn't be a priority.

Around this time 3 years ago, there were some people calling for the Bruins to acquire Lecavalier during their magical regular season. Bruins didn't win the cup that year, or even the next year, but they got one and they did it without Lecavalier's monster contract. I think this is the same type of situation.

It's hard to believe in a team when they haven't won anything yet, but the Rangers are for real. They shouldn't play it like a video game where you have to be loaded with stars to win the cup.

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02-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by egelband View Post
I appreciate Nash's skills, but more and more it's obvious to me that team chemistry can overcome a bit of a skill gap.
E
Skill also beats chemistry, guess it depends on which game you're watching...We were beaten by skill last outing, we can blue collar teams like the Piles, Ottawa is a skill team we seem to struggle against, just to name one..

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02-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #730
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And, if Brooks is correct on what the Rangers have offered, that's not exactly the offer from someone bidding against himself.
You start going anything more than Dubi, Thomas and a pick, and he is bidding against himself. Cap relief has to play a part of the equation.

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02-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #731
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I could probably go through this entire thread to get my answer but that seems rather daunting

What are Rangers fans opinion on your GM/organization trying to get Nash on the roster?

I can't help but think it's a terrible idea and for the life of me can't figure out why you guys would be pursuing him when it will cost so much to get him.. especially when your team is so damn good as it is. Are you guys willing to mess with the psyche of the locker room and losing key/hardworking guys to get a big name player like him?

No doubt Nash would be an exciting player to have but again.. I just can't fathom why the Rangers would risk so much just to have him in a Ranger sweater when your team is primed for a Cup run as it is. Wouldn't it make more sense to just get some depth?

Anyway, hope I didn't come off as a wet blanket or anything! I'm genuinely curious is all to what you, the fans think about this.

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Old
02-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #732
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Brad Richards is no Defensive Dynamo . just saying
No, but he has changed his game to be the way that Torts demands that all of his players play.

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02-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #733
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You guys have the pieces necessary to win a cup. You don't need Rick Nash. Couple reinforcements maybe, particularly on D (not too up-to-date on Sauer's condition and Staal's play.)

Sather should not be talking about Nash right now.

Now, say they fail to win the cup this season, maybe revisit the talks if Nash is still available. But even then, shouldn't be a priority.

Around this time 3 years ago, there were some people calling for the Bruins to acquire Lecavalier during their magical regular season. Bruins didn't win the cup that year, or even the next year, but they got one and they did it without Lecavalier's monster contract. I think this is the same type of situation.

It's hard to believe in a team when they haven't won anything yet, but the Rangers are for real. They shouldn't play it like a video game where you have to be loaded with stars to win the cup.
I think I love this man.

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02-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
I'm taking a different angle from the discussion of assets to trade for Nash, and fitting him into the salary cap, to ask a much more fundamental question:

Why do we need Rick Nash?

Regardless of the teams standing as it relates to overall scoring, the team as a whole is deficient in that area. We have been for a while and this year is no different. Rick Nash fills a gaping hole as a scoring LW'er that we currently do not have

To me the guy is a really good player...but he's not Evgeny Malkin, a healthy Sydney Crosby, Steven Stamkos, or Ovechkin when he was playing well. Those guys are worth talking about rearranging your team for.

No, Nash is none of those players mentioned, but he is veyr much in line with that next tier of scoring forwards. Very much on par with a Marian Gaborik and is paid about the same amount (to me when you are talking 7+ million, 300K is nominal

Do people REALLY think Nash is going to make that much of a difference to a team like the Rangers, who are already leading the league in winning percentage?

Yes, I absolutely believe that Nash will make a major differene for the Rangers at even strength and on the PP. Regardless of our current standings you can't turn a blind eye towards a weakness and if you can improve that to the degree that a Rick Nash does, assuming the price is not astronomical, you make that trade.

I mean, in prior years when we were fighting for a playoff spot, I at least understood why discussions like these were taking place. I didn't always agree with them, but I understood them.

I would prefer to deal from a position of being on top of the league to ensure that we reamin there than make a trade out of desperation in a lame attempt to secure a final playoff spot. It's nice to be where we are, but again, we are very vulnerable in the scoring dept and Nash provides this team another weapon we don't have.

Now...I just don't see Nash being good enough to be THAT much of a difference maker. Having a $7.8 million cap hit per year does not make you an elite player. I do not see Nash as elite.

I see Nash as being on par with Marian Gaborik and as such his 7.8 is more than justified.

Tell me why I'm wrong. Please.

In my opinion, you are wrong about what Rick Nash on this Rangers team can and will do.
Answers are in bold.

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02-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #735
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So based on your expectations, Gaborik should be considered a massive bust then?
don't tempt me

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02-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #736
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Skill also beats chemistry, guess it depends on which game you're watching...We were beaten by skill last outing, we can blue collar teams like the Piles, Ottawa is a skill team we seem to struggle against, just to name one..
Flyers are a skill team we do really well against

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02-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
I'm taking a different angle from the discussion of assets to trade for Nash, and fitting him into the salary cap, to ask a much more fundamental question:

Why do we need Rick Nash?

To me the guy is a really good player...but he's not Evgeny Malkin, a healthy Sydney Crosby, Steven Stamkos, or Ovechkin when he was playing well. Those guys are worth talking about rearranging your team for.

Do people REALLY think Nash is going to make that much of a difference to a team like the Rangers, who are already leading the league in winning percentage?

I mean, in prior years when we were fighting for a playoff spot, I at least understood why discussions like these were taking place. I didn't always agree with them, but I understood them.

Now...I just don't see Nash being good enough to be THAT much of a difference maker. Having a $7.8 million cap hit per year does not make you an elite player. I do not see Nash as elite.

Tell me why I'm wrong. Please.
Boom.

People are really overrating the impact/value of one player, especially a one trick pony in Nash.

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02-23-2012, 12:17 PM
  #738
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The Rangers may not be the Yankees and NY is not Canada, but you are fooling yoruself if you think that there is no pressure or a spotlight. This is NY, you are not hiding from anyone. Look at all of the names that have been imported here, just to fail. Playing for the Rangers brings a pressure and a spotlight all on it's own. You are under more lights as a complimentary player in NY, than as a Captain in Columbus.
Tell me how many articles do the Rangers have in todays Post or Daily News, then tell me how many the Knicks, Yankees and Mets have, I'll bet the Jets and Giants have as many articles in today's papers as the Rangers do.

This NY spotlight/pressure for the Rangers is a myth.

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Old
02-23-2012, 12:17 PM
  #739
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You start going anything more than Dubi, Thomas and a pick, and he is bidding against himself. Cap relief has to play a part of the equation.

Really, adding McIlrath is bidding against yourself?

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Old
02-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #740
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I could probably go through this entire thread to get my answer but that seems rather daunting

What are Rangers fans opinion on your GM/organization trying to get Nash on the roster?

I can't help but think it's a terrible idea and for the life of me can't figure out why you guys would be pursuing him when it will cost so much to get him.. especially when your team is so damn good as it is. Are you guys willing to mess with the psyche of the locker room and losing key/hardworking guys to get a big name player like him?

No doubt Nash would be an exciting player to have but again.. I just can't fathom why the Rangers would risk so much just to have him in a Ranger sweater when your team is primed for a Cup run as it is. Wouldn't it make more sense to just get some depth?

Anyway, hope I didn't come off as a wet blanket or anything! I'm genuinely curious is all to what you, the fans think about this.
It seems 50/50 here.

I am FULLY against trading for him. I do not want anymore big long term contracts.

Stay the course and if the offense doesn't come to play in the playoffs, then explore a trade in the offseason. Bobby Ryan possibly.

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02-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #741
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Skill also beats chemistry, guess it depends on which game you're watching...We were beaten by skill last outing, we can blue collar teams like the Piles, Ottawa is a skill team we seem to struggle against, just to name one..
Not always. Look at the Devils teams that won. Also, remember that it was the very skilled Ottawa team that got run out of the playoffs by Toronto.

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Old
02-23-2012, 12:20 PM
  #742
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Rick Nash was BORN to play New York Rangers hockey in the offensive zone. He gets 95% of his goals within 3 ft of the net. Can skate, is a big body, and has what would easily become the best set of hands on the team by a country mile.

If we get Nash, imho, this team goes from ~#10 offensive team to top 3 overnight.

Nash gets no love because of where he has played and who he plays with night in and night out.

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02-23-2012, 12:20 PM
  #743
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Really, adding McIlrath is bidding against yourself?
It is adding, when there is no need to add. And frankly, for an fanbase that bemoans the lack of a Beuk since he retired, we are very quick to jettison off a player that was just specifically drafted to be in that role.

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02-23-2012, 12:20 PM
  #744
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Nash isn't coming here to be "The Man"

Nash isn't coming to the Rangers to play the same role he was playing in Columbus.

We have Callahan, Gaborik, Richards and Lundqvist to play THAT role.

Nash is coming ot the Rangers to do what he does best, score goals.

There's no pressure to be the man here in NY because that's not the role he is being asked to fill.
I just can't resist. People already giving the guy cover and he's not in the colors yet. Amazing.

Every thing I've ever seen from Rangers fans refutes what you just stated here.

This is an ELITE player we are discussing, IMO.

At that price, and all the hype about him he damn well better be "THE MAN". If not, I can almost guarantee he'll have problems with fans. Rangers fans better see solid 30 - 30 production, and a guy that plays at least as hard in not harder than Dubi does. You don't pay $7.8 million for decent production & performance. IMO, with the talent he has around him, a strong argument could be made that he should exceed career averages and climb into the elite category. I know I would not be alone in that opinion.

If decent or better than average production and play is all we can expect than why the hell would we do it?

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02-23-2012, 12:23 PM
  #745
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At $9m, you had the right to expect him to be more than a 3rd line center. At $9m, he was not the player he needed to be.

And that is exatly what he is getting paid here. At $7.8, he had better be one of the very best in the league. Not a top-20, but a top-10. If he is not, then he is not worth that money. And it becomes a deadly mistake with a hard cap.

His salary demands that he be the top player on the team (henke aside) and amongst the elite of the elite of the league. Kind of hard to blend into the crowd that way.

PLD,do you truly believe that Nash is coming here to be just a complimentary player? At $7.8, if something goes wrong, HE is one of the first people the press go to to see what is wrong. He is not blending into the background.
Here's where we disagree.

Holik was never going to be more than what he was when he signed here. The fact that he didn't live up to UNREASONABLE expectations is not his fault. The Rangers needed a player like Holik, they went out and paid a premium for Holik. To expect him to be more than who he was is not realistic.

Gaborik is not a top 20 player and he's getting a measly 300K less on average. Nash need to do one thing and one thing only. Come in and score goals. Continue his 35-40 goal pace, and get his assist totals up to the 35-40 assist pace and he's MORE than worth the 7.8 he's getting.

His salary (again, JUST 300K more than Gaborik) was the result of Columbus buying 5-6 years of his UFA time. We all know that when a team does that they pay a bit more of a premium to get a deal done. For the level of talent he has played with in Columbus, he's lived up to that contract in my opinion.

Yes, I believe that Nash is going to come here and be as much a complimentary player that Gaborik is. Nash is going to be no more or less important to this team than Richards or Gaborik or Callahan is. The fact is he's not coming in to be the face of the Rangers. He's not coming in with nearly the same amount of pressure to carry a franchise than he has had to deal with while in Columbus.

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02-23-2012, 12:24 PM
  #746
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It is adding, when there is no need to add. And frankly, for an fanbase that bemoans the lack of a Beuk since he retired, we are very quick to jettison off a player that was just specifically drafted to be in that role.
TB, you realize 90% of the people looking at that proposed offer for Nash in Brooks' article are thinking that Sather is trying to steal Nash. I know your hatred for Sather is still palpable, but that offer is not bidding against himself. It's an offer slightly below historical returns for trades for star players.

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02-23-2012, 12:24 PM
  #747
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Hey guys, constant reader, very very rare poster.

Thought I'd chime in with the new information presented by Larry Brookes in his article today:

@NYP_Brooksie: To Nash or Not to Nash? That is the question as Slats' patient plan faces 27 hour test. Today's Column. http://t.co/jAQ2Ab5Q

A couple snippets:

"Sources familiar with the parameters of the discussions between Sather and Columbus counterpart Scott Howson have told The Post the Rangers have designated Ryan McDonagh, Michael Del Zotto, 2009 first-rounder Chris Kreider and 2011 first-rounder J.T. Miller as untouchables"

Have to say that list of untouchables puts me very much at ease. I do NOT want to see any of our roster blue liners go for Nash. Definitely would like to see what Miller, and especially Kreider can bring to the Rangers in the future.

"[Sather] is prepared to send Brandon Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, and perhaps 2010 first-rounder Dylan McIlrath plus a first round pick to Columbus in order to bring the 6-foot-4, 220-pound, nine-year veteran to Broadway."

Sounds like this is the package Sather is dangling/hoping Howson will come down to.

"Sather has been unwilling to include promising 20-year-old defenseman Tim Erixon .... though Howson has expressed interest"

Unwilling doesnt quite translate to untouchable. Slats will surely have to sweeten his offer to land Nash. With the players labeled untouchable, wouldn't surprise me if Erixon replacing McIlrath is the sweetener.

Brookes goes on to point out the obvious, how Slats current offer probably will need sweetening for CBJ not to hold off til the draft, and how the Rangers next two games will determine whether or not Slats sweetens the deal.

My guess for our highest offer before the deadline (not saying this gets it done) would be:

Dubinsky + Erixon + Thomas + 2012 First

That would be a deal I could live with. Biggest worry after acquiring Nash is how we'll give guys like Stepan, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Hagelin their raises when the time comes, and stay under the cap.

Sorry if the quotes arent in boxes, posting from phone using the quick reply.

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02-23-2012, 12:24 PM
  #748
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How many games this year has Richards been our best player? How many games has Gaborik been our best player?

Now how many games have Callahan, Hagelin, Girardi, and McD been our best player?

So just because Nash puts up points and is a big name player we want to add him as another shiny ornament. Money should go to the foundation of the team. If you aren't a foundation player you aren't worth the money. Hank is the definition of foundation. Callahan, Girardi, McD, and a healthy Staal are foundation pieces. Gaborik is an expensive ornament and to his credit he is shining in the goal scoring department. Richards so far is an expensive ornament who isn't even shining in the facet that we all assumed was a given (the PP).

All indications I've gotten are that Nash is another ornament. Someone convince me otherwise.

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02-23-2012, 12:25 PM
  #749
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Tell me how many articles do the Rangers have in todays Post or Daily News, then tell me how many the Knicks, Yankees and Mets have, I'll bet the Jets and Giants have as many articles in today's papers as the Rangers do.

This NY spotlight/pressure for the Rangers is a myth.
This is ludicrous. If you think that there is no difference in playing for the Rangers than Columbus, I have no idea of what to say. Every player to have plaid here has discussed being always on display and the added pressure that comes from playing in the MSG. That by itself is a pressure cooker. Playing in an empty Columbus arena and playing at the garden infront of NY fans is night and day.

You always hear "unreasonable expectations". How do the players find out about them if it is such a quite, easy place to play in? The Rangers are not the Yankees, but that does not mean that they somehow escape the NY scrutiny.

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02-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
I could probably go through this entire thread to get my answer but that seems rather daunting

What are Rangers fans opinion on your GM/organization trying to get Nash on the roster?

I can't help but think it's a terrible idea and for the life of me can't figure out why you guys would be pursuing him when it will cost so much to get him.. especially when your team is so damn good as it is. Are you guys willing to mess with the psyche of the locker room and losing key/hardworking guys to get a big name player like him?

No doubt Nash would be an exciting player to have but again.. I just can't fathom why the Rangers would risk so much just to have him in a Ranger sweater when your team is primed for a Cup run as it is. Wouldn't it make more sense to just get some depth?

Anyway, hope I didn't come off as a wet blanket or anything! I'm genuinely curious is all to what you, the fans think about this.
I think the answer is pretty simple: We're not pursuing him at a cost that is uncomfortable for our organization. Brooks reported that our offer is Dubinsky, Thomas, McIlrath, and a 1st round pick. Nash is a definitive upgrade on Dubinsky. Thomas is a promising player, but is probably two years away from the NHL, if he makes it at all. McIlrath is likely to be an NHLer in some capacity, but is probably 3 years away from realizing his potential at the pro level. The 1st rounder likely won't have any impact on this team for 4+ years.

So when you look at it in terms of the "big picture" we're getting an immediate improvement over a guy who has been disappointing this year and dealing away assets that may or may not have an impact on this team down the line.

This team's issue isn't depth or role players. We have those in abundance. What we lack is offensive prowess up front. The market is thin for top-six upgrades, so why not bring in a guy who not only fills that void, but excels in that role?

Aside from the long-term cap implications, which we really know very little about, there isn't much "risk" involved here at all. People act as if we're gutting the team for Nash. We're not.

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