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Will Subban be as good as Karlsson?

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02-23-2012, 11:43 AM
  #76
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Fair enough point, however, there hasn't been much from Subban this season to suggest he's progressing in the right direction. His overall play is down, he's had a few issues with teammates and his PIM are up. I'm sure you will try to sugar coat that into his "agitator side", but we're talking about a guy who was your number 1 D-man last year. Surely you dont want your #1 guy spending that much time in the box. Meanwhile, Karlsson has taken huge strides in his progress, so all things are pointing, as of now, towards Karlsson being in a different class now and in the future. As for skillset, I won't argue with you, the Canadiens would be better off with a Shea Weber type player than a Karlsson, but it's like saying Nathan Beaulieu could become this and that and therefore you would rather keep him than have Karlsson instead.
no, i won't try to sugar coat his lazy hooking, holding and tripping penalties into his 'agitator side'. he does agitate, but he also takes loads of stupid minor penalties YET is on pace for less than last year, not sure why you say there's been more of them. so a minor improvement there.

i think you are misreading subban's role. he never was our #1 last year, this year, you could argue he is now (along with gorges) but his so-called 'slump' (because i don't buy the conventional wisdom) is a lot due to the fact that he is facing tough minutes night-in and night-out on a ****** team (let's be honest) and maybe he just wasn't ready to be the top guy yet. and he's still +3 in an almost dead last team. -8 last year in a 6th place team.

his lower point production? 30th powerplay. he's a shooter with nobody to pass him the puck. lately, he's been QB'ing the powerplay - something he's not traditionally used to, with mixed results.

he is progressing in the right direction, not as fast as everybody would have hoped but it happens when young defensemen are thrown in roles they are not 100% ready for yet. if karlsson slumps next year (however you want to define it), it's not going to negate what he did this year.

and i might be one of the rare posters here that don't see beaulieu becoming anything special, especially not at karlsson's level. like, ever.

to the op's question: yes, i believe subban could become as good as karlsson but they are, and will always be, two very different kinds of players and as a habs fan i believe he can and am happy keeping him

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Old
02-23-2012, 11:44 AM
  #77
Et le But
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
If you have a buddy who's a Sens fan and you want to get under his skin just call Karlsson a defensive liability and proceed to watch him lose his mind..
It reminds me of what happens if you say anything negative about Kessel on the general board. 20 Leafs fans will immediately attack you if you don't say think Kessel is flawless.

The funny thing about all this is most of us seem to respect Karlsson as a great offensive defenseman. But that doesn't make him a great defender, at least right now.

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02-23-2012, 11:45 AM
  #78
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Wouldnt think so. Karlsson has already done more, and hes a year younger.

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02-23-2012, 11:47 AM
  #79
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To Sens fans saying Karlsson is on the same level/better than Subban defensively: please start watching more Habs games, you have no clue what you're talking about.

The way I see it, Karlsson's upside is Coffey (or Housley if you're not feeling generous). Subban's is Chelios. I guess it becomes a matter of preference, but to me it's quite clear who I prefer.

One thing is for sure though, I don't see Subban ever surpassing Karlsson's production in a single season. Karlsson is MUCH more intelligent & poised in terms of generating offence.


Last edited by hototogisu: 02-23-2012 at 12:06 PM. Reason: OT
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02-23-2012, 12:07 PM
  #80
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Sens fans in this thread are on a short leash. If you don't like Hab fans picking a Habs player in a poll, you shouldn't be on this board.

If you'd like to discuss the topic rationally, you're welcome to do so by all means.

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02-23-2012, 12:22 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by dany View Post
Wouldnt think so. Karlsson has already done more, and hes a year younger.
Development curves are not linear. This argument was applied in the Subban vs Doughty thread last year, and people were considered mentally challenged for thinking that it was even close. This argument was the most commonly posted one.

Suddenly, the comparison is not so outlandish when you have to pay 7 million dollars for that kind of hype.

I think that the comparison of a Subban's Chelios, to Karlsson's Coffey is accurate, and not even close to being as absurd as some people make it out to be.

IMO, what Subban will be is a ~50 point, physical dman, who can depended upon to shut down the oppositions top lines, who can use his athletic ability, and *******ry to literally take over a game. There aren't too many dmen better than that in the league.

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02-23-2012, 12:23 PM
  #82
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Obviously not, Subban is the Jim O'brien of Defenseman. Come on people.

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02-23-2012, 12:53 PM
  #83
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Obviously not, Subban is the Jim O'brien of Defenseman. Come on people.

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02-23-2012, 01:01 PM
  #84
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I suppose Subban could. Not a good year to gauge where he ends up. I always saw him as a more physical Karlsson prior to this season. With Karlsson's breakout season I am wondering if Subban has his high end talent. Still to early to say.

I'll say this, Karlsson plays 25+ minutes a game. For him to be a plus player, his defensive game can't be , as many here have put it, bad. Keep in mind that his defensive partner Lazarus, err Filiup Kuba, has risen, or re-emerged from hockeyhell and is playing as Kuba usually plays which is a big factor to EK's season this year. That can't be underestimated as Phillips/Cowen's play has turned around as Gonchar has regained his form.

The lot of you sound jealous...don't be. Subban will be a No.1 pairing defenceman someday. He just needs to skate more instead of playing a safe game, be allowed to make mistakes and have fun. A lot of it is mental.

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02-23-2012, 01:06 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by coladin View Post
I suppose Subban could. Not a good year to gauge where he ends up. I always saw him as a more physical Karlsson prior to this season. With Karlsson's breakout season I am wondering if Subban has his high end talent. Still to early to say.

I'll say this, Karlsson plays 25+ minutes a game. For him to be a plus player, his defensive game can't be , as many here have put it, bad. Keep in mind that his defensive partner Lazarus, err Filiup Kuba, has risen, or re-emerged from hockeyhell and is playing as Kuba usually plays which is a big factor to EK's season this year. That can't be underestimated as Phillips/Cowen's play has turned around as Gonchar has regained his form.

The lot of you sound jealous...don't be. Subban will be a No.1 pairing defenceman someday. He just needs to skate more instead of playing a safe game, be allowed to make mistakes and have fun. A lot of it is mental.
Not jealous at all. Honestly this would have been a very calm thread if the Ottawa fans didn't come in here all offended and then go make 3 mock threads on the sens board because of it. Again we are projecting towards the future, and we are fans. We always see light at the end of the tunnel, theres no reason to be pessimistic about Subban's future. Some people found it unreasonable and made it a lot more heated than it ever should have been.

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02-23-2012, 01:10 PM
  #86
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P.K. Is what I would call on of the best one-on-one defenseman in the league. As a coach, when you want to shutdown ONE player, you want a player like Subban. I don't think Maclean's think like this with Karlsson. As a coach you need a goal, you want Karlsson on the ice. Yet, P.K. is also this kind of player. As a coach if thing's get rough and chippy, you expect Subban to be in his game, Karlsson not much.
Karlsson benefit's from the player's he play's with (I.E. Big phisical player) Subban's benefit's from himself.

Is Karlsson the best Offensive dman in the league ? Debatable...
Is P.K. the best offensive Dman in the league? Not at all.

I think it's dumb to compare Subban to Karlsson has their purpose are not the same. One is expected to be the one who drive's your offense. The other one is expected to drive the team.

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02-23-2012, 01:27 PM
  #87
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Not a bash here as I believe Subban is a remarkable talent.

One glaring difference I see is that Karlsson is a player that Ottawa will build their future around, Subban simply doesn't have those leadership abilities (right now). There is a much higher probability that Subban becomes a locker room cancer and tears a team apart, this is due to his ego and sense of entitlement.

Based on that alone, Subban is the higher risk prospect and GM's around the league would likely agree. He needs a mentor and the Habs just traded his away.

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02-23-2012, 01:31 PM
  #88
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Karlsson is better. If karlsson keeps this up subban may never reach him. Subban's game is a lot more complete, but karlsson is a game breaker right now. Subban isn't yet. One is more proven.

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02-23-2012, 01:34 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Karlsson benefit's from the player's he play's with (I.E. Big phisical player)
That Filip Kuba's a real physical beast.

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02-23-2012, 01:36 PM
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The last thing I'll say about this is Karlsson is way ahead of Subban in the offensive side of things and that's not even debatable.. On the defensive side though I'd rather have Subban out there battling in the final minutes against the likes of Lucic and Horton protecting a 1 goal lead than have Karlsson out there..

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02-23-2012, 01:38 PM
  #91
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Karlson has 20 points ahead of the closest defenseman, that's insane!

Give him the Norris already.

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02-23-2012, 01:44 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by harrisb View Post
Not a bash here as I believe Subban is a remarkable talent.

One glaring difference I see is that Karlsson is a player that Ottawa will build their future around, Subban simply doesn't have those leadership abilities (right now). There is a much higher probability that Subban becomes a locker room cancer and tears a team apart, this is due to his ego and sense of entitlement.

Based on that alone, Subban is the higher risk prospect and GM's around the league would likely agree. He needs a mentor and the Habs just traded his away.
Looks like you've been buying into the media and HF hate towards PK since as far as I know none of that as been proven. As it been confirmed anywhere that PK is a cancer in the room and not liked by teammates?

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02-23-2012, 01:46 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Sure, of course, but he's only 21. But you still see Subban's potential higher? I'll give him the physical play, for sure, but I think so far, Karlsson looks like the better defenseman both offensively and defensively. I do think though that Subban will regain form and be much better than he's shown this year.

I just don't see the need some of you guys seem to have to compare Subban to the better young d-men in this league. Last year it was Doughty, now Karlsson...
I really don't see what the problem is with comparing them. Karlsson is having a spectacular year and be he and Doughty are the standard of excellence for young rearguards. It makes sense to use them as a measuring stick when you're comparing other young players.

As I said, Subban has the skills to be an elite level player and I beleive he will develop into a Norris calibre defenseman. I didn't always believe this but he's shown enough to convince me otherwise. He's got a great skillset and has all the tools.

Maybe I'll be wrong on this and maybe he won't become the Norris cabibre guy that I thought has the ability to become. I was wrong when I thought the same thing about Dion Phaneuf. He had some fantastic early seasons but never seemed to take that next step that I thought he would. And if I'm wrong on Subban, that's fine. But I don't think it's a silly question to ask. Given what I've seen with Subban, I think he'll be among the best blueliners in the league and many analysts including Mike Keenan agree with me.

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02-23-2012, 01:47 PM
  #94
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Karlsson plays the most minutes on a team that is 26th in the league at defending and 5th best in scoring. PK plays on a team that is 11th best in defending and 17th in offence. I don't understand why they would even be compared unless they are both playing a similar role on two similar teams. Seems like Karlsson should be compared to a Mike Green of seasons past instead of PK who plays a shutdown role.

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02-23-2012, 01:47 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Looks like you've been buying into the media and HF hate towards PK since as far as I know none of that as been proven. As it been confirmed anywhere that PK is a cancer in the room and not liked by teammates?
Just answer this, does a remarkable young talent and arguably your best defensemen get healthy scratched if there is not an issue?

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02-23-2012, 01:50 PM
  #96
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Just answer this, does a remarkable young talent and arguably your best defensemen get healthy scratched if there is not an issue?
I think it's part of the learning curve. Some players take longer than others to develop and the makeup of every player is different. Nobody is saying that Subban couldn't use some maturity to his game, I think that's fair enough. The same thing could be said about Chelios when he was coming up.

At the end of the day though, it doesn't matter. He's been thrust (unfairly) into a situation where he's logging huge minutes with nobody behind him other than Josh Gorges. He's faced his struggles but he's developing and he'll be better for it in the long run.

At the end of the day though, he's got amazing talent and I full expect him to realize this and become a premier talent in the league.

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02-23-2012, 01:55 PM
  #97
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I think it's part of the learning curve. Some players take longer than others to develop and the makeup of every player is different. Nobody is saying that Subban couldn't use some maturity to his game, I think that's fair enough. The same thing could be said about Chelios when he was coming up.

At the end of the day though, it doesn't matter. He's been thrust (unfairly) into a situation where he's logging huge minutes with nobody behind him other than Josh Gorges. He's faced his struggles but he's developing and he'll be better for it in the long run.

At the end of the day though, he's got amazing talent and I full expect him to realize this and become a premier talent in the league.
I agree with this totally, Subban has on AND off ice maturing to do that is for sure.
If he gets his ego in check he will become a fine player, if he does not he will be traded for less than market value. Team chemistry is far more important than any single player.

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02-23-2012, 01:56 PM
  #98
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The last thing I'll say about this is Karlsson is way ahead of Subban in the offensive side of things and that's not even debatable.. On the defensive side though I'd rather have Subban out there battling in the final minutes against the likes of Lucic and Horton protecting a 1 goal lead than have Karlsson out there..
Subban will try and get physical with Lucic, playing to his strength.

EK will play sound positional d and then intercept a pass leading to a odd man rush the other way.

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02-23-2012, 01:57 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by SergeConstantin74 View Post
What's embarassing is Sens fans starting 2-3 threads on their own board because they're offended.

For God's sake... it's just a question people! Will Subban be as good as Karlsson? It's a debatable question.
We're praising Karlssons play right now, and they are offended. We're saying we'd like to have a player like Karlsson. The question is, Does subban, the actual best D with the habs, can reach Karlssons potential?

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02-23-2012, 01:58 PM
  #100
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this IS subban's second full season. karlsson second season? -30. oh dear god, will P.K. ever improve from his atrocious +3 sophomore slump? think of the children...


Last edited by hototogisu: 02-23-2012 at 02:15 PM. Reason: qdp
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