I agree with this totally, Subban has on AND off ice maturing to do that is for sure.
If he gets his ego in check he will become a fine player, if he does not he will be traded for less than market value. Team chemistry is far more important than any single player.
Can you give an example of something that PK as done off the ice that suggests he needs more maturing?
Can you give an example of something that PK as done off the ice that suggests he needs more maturing?
It doesn't have to be off the ice. The slew foots, not making higher percentage plays, hanging onto the puck too long, bad passes to nobody. Those are things that will go away with time. He needs to mature as a player and he will. Great skillset, will improve, but he's not there yet.
Subban will try and get physical with Lucic, playing to his strength.
EK will play sound positional d and then intercept a pass leading to a odd man rush the other way.
Fine but I'd still rather have Subban in the situation I brought up.. Also it's not like Subban doesn't have the ability to intercept a pass leading to a odd man rush the other way since he does..
I don't mind that Sens fans think Karlsson is better defensively than PK.. That's their opinion and I'll respect that.. I just won't agree with them so we'll just have to agree to disagree..
Not a bash here as I believe Subban is a remarkable talent.
One glaring difference I see is that Karlsson is a player that Ottawa will build their future around, Subban simply doesn't have those leadership abilities (right now). There is a much higher probability that Subban becomes a locker room cancer and tears a team apart, this is due to his ego and sense of entitlement.
Based on that alone, Subban is the higher risk prospect and GM's around the league would likely agree. He needs a mentor and the Habs just traded his away.
What in god's great green **** are you talking about?
Subban doesn't have leadership qualities? Yikes, buddy.
Can you give an example of something that PK as done off the ice that suggests he needs more maturing?
How about PK and Randy Ladouceur? Off ice also includes practice time...Plekanec? It's not like Plekanec is a long time vet putting the kid in his place, I believe PK was the aggressor.
EDIT: Leadership is earned, not demanded to the poster asking about leadership abilities.
Well - Subban will have to get over his injury woes, since returning from his groin injury he's been lousy in nets for Belleville. Will he be as good as Karlsson? Maybe..he won't ever be as tall obviously, but I think he has better athletic ability. Subban has the potential to be a number one goalie - I don't think Karlsson will ever achieve that.
this must be what you mean right? surely you're not asking if a player will ever be as good as a player drafted AFTER him, and is only 21 years old??
But Karlson is more mature (he has one more year than PK at NHL level), and has a touch more hockey sense. + He got teamates who can turn his passes into goals.
You did not answer my question. In what way does PK not have leadership qualities?
Attitude towards others and authority, stupid penalties, leading by example. Any of these, especially the first one is a sign of much more maturing required.
I am done here...
If it makes all those with rose coloured glasses happy, Subban is a picture of perfection in every way. A strong leader both on and off the ice and a mentor for young hockey players to look up to.
Subban is better than Karlson on D ainec. Karlson has Spezza, Alfredson, Michalek and other offensive dynamos to pass to, if Subban had those guys his numbers would be a lot closer to Karlson's.
I am not saying Karlson is not a great player, and he is better than PK offensively, but would I trade them 1 for 1, hell no. Ottawa is going to overpay for his skillset and will regret it one day, seen this play out a million times.
Fans will say we are homers but we watch PK play and know what his upside is. I have seen a lot of Karlson play and yeah he has the offensive goods but I am absolutely not impressed with his defensive play, so as someone said before would I rather have a Coffee type or a Chelios type , I take the Chelios, pure preference.
Subban is better than Karlson on D ainec. Karlson has Spezza, Alfredson, Michalek and other offensive dynamos to pass to, if Subban had those guys his numbers would be a lot closer to Karlson's.
I am not saying Karlson is not a great player, and he is better than PK offensively, but would I trade them 1 for 1, hell no. Ottawa is going to overpay for his skillset and will regret it one day, seen this play out a million times.
Fans will say we are homers but we watch PK play and know what his upside is. I have seen a lot of Karlson play and yeah he has the offensive goods but I am absolutely not impressed with his defensive play, so as someone said before would I rather have a Coffee type or a Chelios type , I take the Chelios, pure preference.
I'm a Habs homer, but Ottawa will never ever regret whatever they will end up paying Karlsson. He's elite offensively whether you want to admit it or not.
My main issue with Ottawa fans is their evaluation of his overall D game. It's really not that bad, but hearing them you'd think he's above and beyond most D-men in this league, which is absolutely false. The guy has insane vision though, he definitely could turn to be really good in his own zone despite his size, a la Enstrom.
How about PK and Randy Ladouceur? Off ice also includes practice time...Plekanec? It's not like Plekanec is a long time vet putting the kid in his place, I believe PK was the aggressor.
EDIT: Leadership is earned, not demanded to the poster asking about leadership abilities.
So a coach screams at him telling him to wake the **** up and he's been in a couple of altercations while being competitive in practice.. This **** happens and if he wasn't playing in Montreal no one would even hear about it. These things probably happen to all teams during practices it's just that no one hears about it.
I think they are very different, but personally I doubt eitrher Subban or Karlsson ever have as good a year as Karlsson is having this year in the future....
No, he will not be as good offensively. Karlsson is a 50-60pt Dman. Subban 35-45pts. Not bad but not as good. Karlsson is having a dream year and is clicking massively on the PP. If MTL PP was any good Subban could easily have 10-20 pts more already this season.
Yes, he will be much better defensively, as he already is and is continuing to improve there. Subban also adds a physical and phsycological aspect that Karlsson doesn't have.
Basically I see Subban as more complete. But Karlsson being the flashier, more offensively talented Dman.
I think it's extremely unfair to label Subban as a 35-45 point defenseman. He put up 38 points as a rookie. This year has been an off year for the entire team. Subban will be a 45+ point defenseman for almost every season for the next 10-12 years. He's still developing.
"There have been giveaways off Subban's stick this season, to the tune of a team-leading 62." While having 23 points? Is this true? Karlsson, I am pretty sure plays more minutes and has almost triple the points with less giveaways. PK Subban being "worlds" ahead of Karlsson defensively.
I also love his comments about being as good as Lidstrom on and off the ice. Didn't know Lids talks a bunch of ***** on a regular basis off the ice.
"There have been giveaways off Subban's stick this season, to the tune of a team-leading 62." While having 23 points? Is this true? Karlsson, I am pretty sure plays more minutes and has almost triple the points with less giveaways. PK Subban being "worlds" ahead of Karlsson defensively.
I also love his comments about being as good as Lidstrom on and off the ice. Didn't know Lids talks a bunch of ***** on a regular basis off the ice.
Like LyricalLyricist said read that part again since you misunderstood what he said about Lidstrom.. Also when as PK said anything disrespectful off the ice about anyone?
Difficult question to answer, but what I can tell you is that I'd take Subban on my team over Karlsson 9 times out of 10. As much as I can't stand him, Karlsson is a wildly talented offensive defensemen, although it seems like 50% of his points are secondary assists on the PP. But Karlsson is an absolute pylon, we're talking like Letang/Gonchar style pylon-ary, and he's small. So if Karlsson ends up being a consistent 60 point defenseman, and Subban ends up being a consistent 45 point defenseman, I'd take Subban based on physicality and defensive prowess.
Well i certainly won't say that Subban isn't talented and doesn't have the ability to become a one or two spot defencemen on any team but overall i think Karlsson has a better skillset.
Sure you can argue that Subban is better physically but physicality isn't the only thing you need to play good defense. Even though Karlsson isn't imposing, his speed certainly makes up for most situations on the ice. For example,if Karlsson pinched in the attacking zone he has the ability to catch up and tie the forward in his own end (it happened alot last year, not so much this year but it occasionally occurs) since his speed allows him to catch up.
But! If a power forward such as Nash or even Louie Ericksson leans on Karlsson he is at a disadvantage compared to Subban.
Overall, even with this disadvantage i think Karlsson has the edge and will for a longtime but Subban certainly come close (if the team can turn it around) in time.
