Josh Yohe knows about as much about Shero's intentions as anyone else. He's ignoring the fact Shero has come out and said he wants add a forward.
We're cap neutral next season moving TK and Nisky for Brown and Stoll being a UFA.
Two things . . .
1. THIS
2. When has Shero's being in on a big hockey deal EVER been known publicly? Hossa? We were mentioned as sniffing around early, but that was it. The Whitney or Gogo deals? In hindsight, there may have been some breadcrumbs, but both deals were surprises in terms of the trade partner and the return.
One more consideration: You're Sid. You took less to allow the Pens to get you a winger. The Pens botched your medical diagnosis. It's one thing to not get Brown. That happens. But, to not step up with a really aggressive offer when you're talking about a winger who's the perfect fit for Sid and the cap? Man, if I'm Sid and I caught wind ever that the Pens never really pursued Brown, then I wouldn't be a happy camper.
Toronto should just stick with what they have and stay the course unless they can get a center. This applies in general not just the deadline. My opinion.
My thing with Stewart is that I think the idea of getting him has more to do with this thread spinning out of control than us actually being able to land him. Seem like people are just getting their hopes up way too high.
The Blues aren't giving him up for scraps. Even though he's had a rough season I think it's safe to say we're seeing the exception not the rule. The Blues might be willing to deal him for a nice price but otherwise they'll be happy to hang on to him for playoff depth at the very least. I'm sure they plan on him more or less getting back to form next year too. They're not going to take Bennett as a centerpiece for him IMO. They'd basically be downgrading a team that's planning on competing for Cups. Makes no sense. Anyone want to give up Despres or Morrow? Didn't think so. I know there isn't much to talk about but I think we'd be better served talking about the likes of Bryan Allen or even AK46, as less appealing as it may be.
I'm more along the lines of this post. It's nice to talk about, but it really seems like people are convincing themselves these deals have a good chance of happening. It's great to discuss, but I just don't see the pieces that are being proposed as valuable to those teams now. St. Louis wants to win now. They don't have any trouble keeping goals out of their net. If anything, they could use a high end scoring forward. We can't offer them what they want IMO. I may be way off base here, I just don't get the optimism.
I'm more along the lines of this post. It's nice to talk about, but it really seems like people are convincing themselves these deals have a good chance of happening. It's great to discuss, but I just don't see the pieces that are being proposed as valuable to those teams now. St. Louis wants to win now. They don't have any trouble keeping goals out of their net. If anything, they could use a high end scoring forward. We can't offer them what they want IMO. I may be way off base here, I just don't get the optimism.
You're not off. Some are trying to cultivate something because the Pens are absent from ANY talk.
With the news of Buffalo in the running for Brown. I bet he ends up there or Toronto. Schenn going back with Grabovski or Kulemin. Not sure what Buffalo would give up but theres alot of overpaid talent there.
Toronto are sending guys to waivers today so a move is probably coming there.
I don't think LA wants to add salary, so a lot of the things being discussed involve that.
Very well could be that he ends up in Toronto or Buffalo, but I think Toronto is the more natural trade partner. That said, I don't see them giving up Kulemin and Schenn for Brown. They wouldn't have given that for Richards. As for Grabovski, he'd be a rental, and he plays center. Buffalo could work, but I don't think they really have a defenseman who ideally fits the bill. It's either not young, more money, or not experienced enough to bolster things with JJ gone.
I believe Martin, Orpik, Niskanen and TK have real value around the league. We shall see what happens.
Why would we trade Orpik? I don't think "Mr. throw in" Matt Niskanen has very much trade value (at least not in the sense of a significant piece for a Brown or Stewart). I still believe he's a great number 5 dman with potential, but not sure what you mean by "real value". TK is still injured so that hurts his value to any team making a playoff push.
I'm more along the lines of this post. It's nice to talk about, but it really seems like people are convincing themselves these deals have a good chance of happening. It's great to discuss, but I just don't see the pieces that are being proposed as valuable to those teams now. St. Louis wants to win now. They don't have any trouble keeping goals out of their net. If anything, they could use a high end scoring forward. We can't offer them what they want IMO. I may be way off base here, I just don't get the optimism.
The Pens have pieces the Blues want as I said yesterday, but I don't see Shero giving them up.
They would have a lot of interest in Orpik and even Engelland. Engelland is a guy who would have a good amount of value in a trade because of his vastly improved defensive play, his physicality, his role as an enforcer and most attractive of all is that 556k cap hit for the next two seasons after this.
If Shero wants Stewart, he has the pieces. But as I said he will have to give up pieces that will hurt; not pieces we want to give up and mismash together into a deal.
So you gotta ask yourself... would the addition of Stewart and the subtraction of an Orpik/Engelland makes this a better team?
Why would we trade Orpik? I don't think "Mr. throw in" Matt Niskanen has very much trade value (at least not in the sense of a significant piece for a Brown or Stewart). I still believe he's a great number 5 dman with potential, but not sure what you mean by "real value". TK is still injured so that hurts his value to any team making a playoff push.
Here's why I think Niskanen COULD have value:
1. His cap hit is low. I'm not sure that LA wants to add dollars in a deal (although they could and just waive Penner if this is their last deal and Bernier stays).
2. LA is relying on Martinez, a defenseman of Niskanen's style but on whom Niskanen would be a big upgrade, as their #6 and the recalled Slava Voynov to fill JJ's role. That's a big gamble, which is why they're insisting on a young defenseman. For me, that reads as a young defenseman who can be an upgrade on Martinez and play a top four role right NOW and has proven that he can do it. Niskanen fits that bill and still is only 25 with upside. Someone like Jonathan Blum from Nashville may have more upside but is more of a risk when you consider Lombari needs to win now.
As for TK, he'll be back in mid March. If that's not soon enough, I'd offer Dupuis or Sullivan. Thing is with all three of these guys, they produce NOW like the higher upside forwards do, perhaps better in some cases. They help Lombardi win now, and they've shown, with all the Pens injuries, that they can play a top six role in a pinch in a playoff race and in the playoffs.
I'd actually argue that IF LA wants a deal that's a cap wash, then a TK/Sully/Dupuis + Nisky return does more to address both needs for secondary scoring and defense NOW. What the deal lacks is the upside, which is why you add Beau Bennett, a RW who's upside might be better than Brown's.
NOW, if LA is willing to take back salary, then it's a different story.
The Pens have pieces the Blues want as I said yesterday, but I don't see Shero giving them up.
They would have a lot of interest in Orpik and even Engelland. Engelland is a guy who would have a good amount of value in a trade because of his vastly improved defensive play, his physicality, his role as an enforcer and most attractive of all is that 556k cap hit for the next two seasons after this.
If Shero wants Stewart, he has the pieces. But as I said he will have to give up pieces that will hurt; not pieces we want to give up and mismash together into a deal.
So you gotta ask yourself... would the addition of Stewart and the subtraction of an Orpik/Engelland makes this a better team?
If it were Orpik and I were getting Colaiacovo (and his expiring contract) and something back, then I might bite. I think it makes you better. You lose the free candy, but you're not exactly getting chicken**** with Colaiacovo.
BTW, Jiggy, what are your thoughts on Dustin Brown? What do you think they want? Do the Pens have the pieces? You can see my read above . . . I think Lombardi wants to move Brown and to save his job. He sees getting back secondary scoring and a young defenseman as bolstering his third line and suddenly very lean looking defensive core. Those two guys have to be able to help now. Not sure if they're willing to take back salary (they could, but I think they're holding the waiving of Penner for a Bernier for a forward/lesser backup deal).
The Pens have pieces the Blues want as I said yesterday, but I don't see Shero giving them up.
They would have a lot of interest in Orpik and even Engelland. Engelland is a guy who would have a good amount of value in a trade because of his vastly improved defensive play, his physicality, his role as an enforcer and most attractive of all is that 556k cap hit for the next two seasons after this.
If Shero wants Stewart, he has the pieces. But as I said he will have to give up pieces that will hurt; not pieces we want to give up and mismash together into a deal.
So you gotta ask yourself... would the addition of Stewart and the subtraction of an Orpik/Engelland makes this a better team?
1. His cap hit is low. I'm not sure that LA wants to add dollars in a deal (although they could and just waive Penner if this is their last deal and Bernier stays).
2. LA is relying on Martinez, a defenseman of Niskanen's style but on whom Niskanen would be a big upgrade, as their #6 and the recalled Slava Voynov to fill JJ's role. That's a big gamble, which is why they're insisting on a young defenseman. For me, that reads as a young defenseman who can be an upgrade on Martinez and play a top four role right NOW and has proven that he can do it. Niskanen fits that bill and still is only 25 with upside. Someone like Jonathan Blum from Nashville may have more upside but is more of a risk when you consider Lombari needs to win now.
As for TK, he'll be back in mid March. If that's not soon enough, I'd offer Dupuis or Sullivan. Thing is with all three of these guys, they produce NOW like the higher upside forwards do, perhaps better in some cases. They help Lombardi win now, and they've shown, with all the Pens injuries, that they can play a top six role in a pinch in a playoff race and in the playoffs.
I'd actually argue that IF LA wants a deal that's a cap wash, then a TK/Sully/Dupuis + Nisky return does more to address both needs for secondary scoring and defense NOW. What the deal lacks is the upside, which is why you add Beau Bennett, a RW who's upside might be better than Brown's.
NOW, if LA is willing to take back salary, then it's a different story.
I have to hand it to you, you paint a pretty good picture, I'm just not seeing it the same way. We are talking about acquiring their captain. A consistent 55+ point, 25 goal scorer that can play a two way game and hit with the best forwards in the league and he's on a cap friendly deal.
And you are offering a former 1st round project forward prospect that COULD possibly (by project I mean he's far from a sure thing) maybe have a higher offensive ceiling than their captain, a versatile 2nd/3rd line tweener that has some upside but is injured likely for a few more weeks during a critical time in their season where they are battling for a playoff spot. And a defenseman that last year was a throw in cap dump but has proven to be a good number 5 dman in an up tempo north south system.
I know I was critical in my analysis of our players in that statement, but that's how Lombardi has to look at the situation. If he's dealing his captain, it better make his team better now or he gets canned. I don't see how Nisky and Kennedy make his team better now while subtracting their captain. Unless of course, as you mentioned earlier, he has a master plan to really upgrade the forward vacancy Brown leaves with a Bernier deal.
The Pens have pieces the Blues want as I said yesterday, but I don't see Shero giving them up.
They would have a lot of interest in Orpik and even Engelland. Engelland is a guy who would have a good amount of value in a trade because of his vastly improved defensive play, his physicality, his role as an enforcer and most attractive of all is that 556k cap hit for the next two seasons after this.
If Shero wants Stewart, he has the pieces. But as I said he will have to give up pieces that will hurt; not pieces we want to give up and mismash together into a deal.
So you gotta ask yourself... would the addition of Stewart and the subtraction of an Orpik/Engelland makes this a better team?
I think either Martin or Orpik brings something they need. Someone who can play big minutes and take pressure off Pietrangelo. Jackman is their Orpik. If salaries equal out then Martin is an option.
The trade board has become the "Brian Burke is interested in every player in the NHL" board. As it does every year.
That's why there's a big difference between Brian Burke and Ray Shero. Burke will bluster about needing a top six guy or something like that. Someone will leak **** to the media. And, everyone will get their panties in a twist. But, when it comes time to **** or get off the pot, nothing happens.
Ray Shero will tell you 'I like my team now' every single time. He'll operate in the shadows, let the Pittsburgh media guess, and then all of a sudden make that big hockey deal that makes you say 'holy ****'.
If you want to tell me that the Pens aren't going to get Dustin Brown, then I'll say you're probably right.
If you want to tell me that Shero wouldn't aggressively pursue Dustin Brown, then I'll say you're full of it.
BTW, Jiggy, what are your thoughts on Dustin Brown? What do you think they want? Do the Pens have the pieces? You can see my read above . . . I think Lombardi wants to move Brown and to save his job. He sees getting back secondary scoring and a young defenseman as bolstering his third line and suddenly very lean looking defensive core. Those two guys have to be able to help now. Not sure if they're willing to take back salary (they could, but I think they're holding the waiving of Penner for a Bernier for a forward/lesser backup deal).
Don't want Brown at what the cost will be.
I've watched enough LA games to feel quite strongly about it.
He is a N-S player and will bring a Kunitz type element, but despite his numbers, he isn't a skill player. He will flub a lot of Crosby's setups and frustrate many of us.
He also has a bad habit of trying to make too many moves and losing the puck. That isn't his game, but he thinks it is... get what I'm saying?
Josh Yohe knows about as much about Shero's intentions as anyone else. He's ignoring the fact Shero has come out and said he wants add a forward.
We're cap neutral next season moving TK and Nisky for Brown and Stoll being a UFA.
Why are you getting mad at Josh Yohe for using logic? There has not been one good rumor from a credible source saying the Pens are in on Brown or Stewart. People need to jump off this fantasy & not get mad at people who are living in the real world.
I still think Shero will try to get Moen when he is healthy & that's about it.
I have to hand it to you, you paint a pretty good picture, I'm just not seeing it the same way. We are talking about acquiring their captain. A consistent 55+ point, 25 goal scorer that can play a two way game and hit with the best forwards in the league and he's on a cap friendly deal.
And you are offering a former 1st round project forward prospect that COULD possibly (by project I mean he's far from a sure thing) maybe have a higher offensive ceiling than their captain, a versatile 2nd/3rd line tweener that has some upside but is injured likely for a few more weeks during a critical time in their season where they are battling for a playoff spot. And a defenseman that last year was a throw in cap dump but has proven to be a good number 5 dman in an up tempo north south system.
I know I was critical in my analysis of our players in that statement, but that's how Lombardi has to look at the situation. If he's dealing his captain, it better make his team better now or he gets canned. I don't see how Nisky and Kennedy make his team better now while subtracting their captain. Unless of course, as you mentioned earlier, he has a master plan to really upgrade the forward vacancy Brown leaves with a Bernier deal.
1. I'd never trade Brown if I were LA. I thought I'd been clear about that. Something is going on there. I think it's the Philly West thing, and he wants to wipe the last vestige of their old young core that he counted on the 'lead' the team. I think what he's doing is beyond dumb to be perfectly blunt.
2. My comments are based on the assumptions (a) that McKenzie is accurate that LA wants secondary scoring and a young defenseman, (b) that the state of their defensive core requires that the defenseman be an upgrade right away on Martinez, especially with them also risking a lot with Voynov, (c) that Lombardi is managing for his job (ergo, he needs BOTH the secondary scorer and the defenseman right away, not a guy with 10 games NHL experience on defense), and (d) that LA wants to take back little, if any, cap space and perhaps wants to shed it. In that scenario, I think Niskanen fits the bill better than just about anyone UNLESS Toronto offers Schenn (but then you don't get the secondary scorer and Schenn's defensive issues are a lot like JJ's) or Franson (a more physical guy than Nisky but also a guy who hasn't played as prominent a role in Toronto), NY offers Del Zotto (which would be nuts), OR Lombardi decides to accept an older defenseman.
3. That's why I mentioned Buffalo being the front runner earlier. It works if the offer is like Ennis + Leopold, but Leopold doesn't exactly fit the bill as a younger guy (the alternative might be Weber, but I'd much rather have Niskanen's relative experience) and, for as flashy as Ennis is, he's got 10 points on the year.
4. That said, I agree with your assessment of our players. TK (or Dupuis or Sully) are tweeners. Thing is, they fit better than say a Matt Frattin from Toronto as a third liner/secondary scorer now. Nisky is a #5 who has shown, due to all of the Pens injuries, that he can step up into a top three or four role. He can do that right now. He's an upgrade on Alec Martinez right now. He's a safety net in case Voynov falters right now. And, he's only 25. What those two pieces from the Pens lack is a ton of upside. Ergo, I suggested adding Bennett. If you prefer, you could add Tangradi + 1st. The point there was to use that chip as an 'upside equalizer' while giving LA pieces that right now can do more for them than the return they'd get for the same cap hit from any other team.
Why are you getting mad at Josh Yohe for using logic? There has not been one good rumor from a credible source saying the Pens are in on Brown or Stewart. People need to jump off this fantasy & not get mad at people who are living in the real world.
I still think Shero will try to get Moen when he is healthy & that's about it.
I'm basing my views on what the team needs and what we could potentially be looking at. We have the pieces to get both Brown or Stewart. It's a matter of if we want to pull the trigger. Salary concerns are BS. Wed be cap neutral.
