How do you explain Blues fans saying they'd move Stewart for JJ and a roster forward. Martin/Orpik is a better fit on their top pairing and the Blues wanted TK in the offseason. Sending Colaiacovo the other way means they add very little salary and likely are neutral next year.
I appreciate the fact it's unlikely, but it's not out of left field.
Using 'Yohe logic', everything for me points to Ray Shero trying to pull off a hockey trade. Doesn't mean that he'll succeed. But, the unique absence of any chatter about the rental market. The scouting of STL. The public chatter that Brown is in play. I could see Shero actively trying to pry Stewart or Brown and, depending upon the circumstances, the Pens potentially having a very appealing package. Again, doesn't mean it will happen. I'm sure with Shero for the three big hockey trades he's pulled off, there may be 15-20, maybe more, aggressive pursuits that didn't lead to a deal.
BTW, I'm not 100% buying that Brown now isn't in play because of the Friedman tweet. First of all, if McKenzie yesterday said Brown was in play, then that means Lombardi has been talking with other GM's for a week, maybe longer. Second of all, saying what he said to Friedman gives him the perfect out: He subsequently deals Brown, he can say 'I wasn't shopping him, but someone approached me with the perfect offer, and I always listen'. He doesn't deal him but tries in the next few days, it's a lot easier to deal with it if he's made a public denial than if he lets this Brown chatter go on for another 72 hours and then gets the 'why didn't you trade him' in the first post-deadline pressure. Just logic, as the saying goes . . .
So, maybe fans don't know what's best and then you say that Martin would still be a better fit for them?
Just saying ...
Johnson is a train wreck in his own end and his best qualities are filled by Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo. Martin and Orpik are a better fit. Not seeing how that's not a valid position.
What I'm saying is that maybe it's not such a terrible deal as you and others are making it out to be. Jiggy and CW see it, and I wouldn't call them moronic posters.
I can explain it ... Their FANS, just like us. They look at NUMBERS, just like us. JJ looks flashy ... Martin/Orpik do not.
Just like when I say Jones, Ott, and Kostitsyn, who have been absent from these threads for a couple of days due to Stewart and Brown, who we were never linked to in any way.
I can't for the life of me figure out why some people on here are entertaining the idea of Ott on the Pens. He's Matt Cooke, but making over a mil per more than Matt Cooke makes, and for the next 2 years.
A 3 mil per 3rd line grinder. Because that's what this team needs.
I can explain it ... Their FANS, just like us. They look at NUMBERS, just like us. JJ looks flashy ... Martin/Orpik do not.
Just like when I say Jones, Ott, and Kostitsyn, who have been absent from these threads for a couple of days due to Stewart and Brown, who we were never linked to in any way.
We haven't been linked to Ott. We really haven't been linked to Jones or AK46 beyond idle speculation.
That said, I still put any mention of Stewart and Brown into the hockey trade category. Did you have any inkling of the Whitney trade? Did you expect the Gogo trade? I never saw a Neal for Gogo 'rumor'. I saw people here noting the teams were scouting one another and then just speculating about names based on each team's needs.
People here aren't speculating about Stewart because there's a rumor. They're speculating because of the recent scouting and because Stewart is the only name there that makes sense from a Pens perspective.
People here aren't speculating about Brown because there's a rumor. They're speculating because Brown is the perfect fit for Sid and on a cap friendly deal, and it would be inconceivable that Shero wouldn't aggressively pursue it, even if nothing happened.
That said, why would you expect to hear a rumor about Stewart or Brown? That's not how Shero rolls. And, if you doubt that, look at his three big hockey trades as GM of the Pens.
Johnson is a train wreck in his own end and his best qualities are filled by Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo. Martin and Orpik are a better fit. Not seeing how that's not a valid position.
What I'm saying is that maybe it's not such a terrible deal as you and others are making it out to be. Jiggy and CW see it, and I wouldn't call them moronic posters.
That makes far too much sense from a logical standpoint. Please edit your reply.
I can't for the life of me figure out why some people on here are entertaining the idea of Ott on the Pens. He's Matt Cooke, but making over a mil per more than Matt Cooke makes, and for the next 2 years.
A 3 mil per 3rd line grinder. Because that's what this team needs.
People seem to have thrown their lot in on the idea of "Staalsby" happening, even though it seems as likely as not that Sid isn't coming back.
I'm not willing to ship our best prospects out just to get yet another Cooke or Dupuis (or worse yet, another Letestu, since we could have just held on to the one we already had if that's what we wanted so badly) to replace Staal when we still need Staal to play the same role he always had.
Our forward prospects are pretty dismal outside of Bennett, so letting him go to bring in yet another grinder would make my head explode.
As far as the Stewart talk, we broke down the circumstances in St.Loo and the fact that our scouts were actually in attendance for multiple Blues games despite the fact that they're not on the schedule, then used process of elimination to try and figure out who the Pens might target.
I know its hard to use your brain to try and figure things out instead of making an argument from authority, but it's a lot more interesting than just parroting what the talking heads tell you.
People seem to have thrown their lot in on the idea of "Staalsby" happening, even though it seems as likely as not that Sid isn't coming back.
I'm not willing to ship our best prospects out just to get yet another Cooke or Dupuis (or worse yet, another Letestu, since we could have just held on to the one we already had if that's what we wanted so badly) to replace Staal when we still need Staal to play the same role he always had.
Our forward prospects are pretty dismal outside of Bennett, so letting him go to bring in yet another grinder would make my head explode.
We won't be giving up any of our best prospects for a Dupuis or Cooke type, so I wouldn't worry about it. Shero's never done anything like that and I don't see why he'd start now.
Johnson is a train wreck in his own end and his best qualities are filled by Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo. Martin and Orpik are a better fit. Not seeing how that's not a valid position.
What I'm saying is that maybe it's not such a terrible deal as you and others are making it out to be. Jiggy and CW see it, and I wouldn't call them moronic posters.
The flaw there is that one of them most likely won't be moved, and the other is way too much salary going back in a move where they're trying to, apparently, shed salary.
He is actually a pretty big kid... he bulked up this Summer and last time I checked he was playing at 205.... He is around 6'1.
Wow. I didn't realize he was at that level. I figured him more at about 185-190 lbs. 6'1 205 is pretty damn solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan
I don't think I've ever felt worse for a player than I do JJ right now.
You go from being a millionaire athlete with a home in LA on an almost decade long deal, to Columbus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk
I don't get the whole "feel sorry for a guy" because of where he's been traded. ..
Besides, I'd be surprised if Columbus still has a team by the time his contract is up, as sad as that is to say.
IMO JJ will dog it until he gets traded. I predict he won't be there two full seasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjb141
I would much, MUCH rather have Brown than Stewart. I just can't see us being able to compete w/ what some other teams are able to give up for him.
I would be completely fine with us not doing anything drastic at the deadline and then trying to trade up at the draft to try to get an impact winger.
Agree on both counts but looking like not, unless Lombardi is just trying to drive up the offers by now saying he's not available. Wouldn't be the first time a GM said he wasn't close to trading a guy then ends up trading him a day later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Frasier Crane
Whoever trades a big piece for JVR will end up very disappointed, IMO. Not impressed with him at all.
Yah he's not developed as advertised. I guess comparisons to Tangradi might've been warranted after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Birth Control
The trade board has become the "Brian Burke is interested in every player in the NHL" board. As it does every year.
Are you suggesting Brian Burke is not interest in every player in the NHL? He's got a master watch-list you know... very organized that guy.
I was thinking this myself. That was some odd logic.
My opinion is that Martin/Orpik > JJ in a defensive role on the top pairing. Would you like to address that or further comment on why I think blues fans don't like Martin for the same reasons the main board thinks he's a salary dump.
My opinion is that Martin/Orpik > JJ in a defensive role on the top pairing. Would you like to address that or further comment on why I think blues fans don't like Martin for the same reasons the main board thinks he's a salary dump.
Being better than Johnson in a defensive role isn't exactly an exclusive club.
Blues fans don't want Martin because he's too expensive.
I can't for the life of me figure out why some people on here are entertaining the idea of Ott on the Pens. He's Matt Cooke, but making over a mil per more than Matt Cooke makes, and for the next 2 years.
A 3 mil per 3rd line grinder. Because that's what this team needs.
I'm pretty convinced that, more than anything, some people just want something to happen. Anything. I swear there are people on here that would be happier to make a bad trade than no trade at all. This team could go undefeated and win the cup and there would still those people clamoring for roster moves.
The flaw there is that one of them most likely won't be moved, and the other is way too much salary going back in a move where they're trying to, apparently, shed salary.
Be been through this. They take on a mil at most next year with Colaiacvo likely making 3+ and Stewart at 3.5.
Solidifying their top pairing for a small increase in salary isn't a reason not to do it.
Being better than Johnson in a defensive role isn't exactly an exclusive club.
Blues fans don't want Martin because he's too expensive.
He makes roughly half a mil per more than JJ. If Martin's price was definitively prohibitive, I'm not sure how anyone could argue that Johnson was an ideal target.
Martin's contract isn't the albatross many here seem to think.
Jack Johnson's career +- (sometimes it is a good indicator and this is one of them):
Season 1
5GP -5
Season 2
74GP -19
Season 3
41GP -18
Season 4
80GP -15
Season 5
82GP -21
This Season
61GP -12
(and likely to get a lot worse in Columbus...)
"Defensively irresponsible" seems like not a stretch comment at this point. You shouldn't need 5 seasons to dramatically improve your +- no matter your age / experience.
He makes roughly half a mil per more than JJ. If Martin's price was definitively prohibitive, I'm not sure how anyone could argue that Johnson was an ideal target.
Martin's contract isn't the albatross many here seem to think.
I think you're confusing teams/deals. JJ left LA, he's talking about sending Martin to STL.
I can't for the life of me figure out why some people on here are entertaining the idea of Ott on the Pens. He's Matt Cooke, but making over a mil per more than Matt Cooke makes, and for the next 2 years.
A 3 mil per 3rd line grinder. Because that's what this team needs.
That 3M "grinder" has had time in the top six of another team ... That's why.
Agree on both counts but looking like not, unless Lombardi is just trying to drive up the offers by now saying he's not available. Wouldn't be the first time a GM said he wasn't close to trading a guy then ends up trading him a day later.
IMO, Lombardi is saying he's not available, not to drive up the price per se, but in case he doesn't deal him.
If McKenzie yesterday said Brown is in play, then how long do you think Lombardi has been talking to teams about Brown?
So, you get 24 hours of the 'Brown is in play' frenzy. If Lombardi lets it go and doesn't deal him, it makes for a tough situation in the locker room (and for Brown's morale if he stays) and his first question at a post-deadline presser and all questions after that about why he didn't move Brown and the offers he got. If Lombardi issues a public denial but keeps 'listening', then it's no harm if he doesn't deal Brown. If he does, he says 'I didn't shop him; I got a call and heard an offer I couldn't refuse'. It's bull****, but it's no different than Ray Shero saying 'I like my team now'. He makes a deal, and he says 'I found a way to make it better and I hate to lose player X or prospect Y'. He doesn't make a deal, and he'll just talk about how it was a seller's market and how didn't see an upgrade and likes his team now.
Last edited by Chancellor Vitale: 02-24-2012 at 02:11 PM.
Reason: shortened my own quoted info since it ref multiple posts.
Be been through this. They take on a mil at most next year with Colaiacvo likely making 3+ and Stewart at 3.5.
Solidifying their top pairing for a small increase in salary isn't a reason not to do it.
And they've got a team budget they need to work with where Oshie and Perron are RFA's and lifer Jackman is a UFA this summer, then it's Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, and Berglund as RFA's the following summer.
I think you're confusing teams/deals. JJ left LA, he's talking about sending Martin to STL.
No, I got it.
Many Blues fans were entertaining the idea of JJ for Stewart before he got dealt, but turning their nose up at the prospect of Martin. Classic case of a fanbase being dazzled by youth and numbers, IMHO.
