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Old
02-24-2012, 01:54 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
...am I reading that wrong, or did Elliot Friedman just try to say that he "can't wait" until the trade deadline craziness is over?

If so, I call shenanigans.

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Old
02-24-2012, 02:02 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Lol. Brown has consistently put up BETTER numbers than Hartnell throughout his career, and this one season, playing with arguably the best playmaker in the league and putting up similar numbers to what Brown has put up in the past makes him better? I'd be willing to bet that Brown on that line is putting up at least the same amount of points as Hartnell. And once again, what Brown "lacks" in offensive output he makes up plenty in the rest of his game. Are you going to put Hartnell out there with under two minutes left in the game for a defensive zone draw? Unlikely.
Hartnell and Brown have pretty much had the exact same career

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Old
02-24-2012, 02:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah, that's a good point. No team captain has ever been traded and that is proof positive that he is a bad leader. The US Olympic team is still kicking itself for giving him an A in the last Winter Games.



Once again, I wouldn't really put much stock in the fact that he is on the block to take away from his leadership abilities. Especially considering the recent addition of Jeff Carter and the moves from the offseason.



I'm sorry but that statement is just a bit much. Simmonds is a good player, no doubt. One of my favorites. But I'd be surprised if he ever reaches the 55-60 point season consistently, along with the rest of the skills Brown possesses.



Lol. Brown has consistently put up BETTER numbers than Hartnell throughout his career, and this one season, playing with arguably the best playmaker in the league and putting up similar numbers to what Brown has put up in the past makes him better? I'd be willing to bet that Brown on that line is putting up at least the same amount of points as Hartnell. And once again, what Brown "lacks" in offensive output he makes up plenty in the rest of his game. Are you going to put Hartnell out there with under two minutes left in the game for a defensive zone draw? Unlikely.



Fair enough, but again, a lackluster performance this year and the Kings may not be making this call next year. Now you have potentially a player with the same offensive output as Brown without the defense and intangibles or Brown for a million more dollars.



Dealing JvR for Brown is not mortgaging the future. Brown is still young and is one of the best at what he does. Yes JvR might turn out better than Brown, but I wouldn't make it out like it's a done deal. It isn't like the Flyers would be trading JvR for an over the hill veteran with a big cap hit. It's an unproven (at this point) young kid with a high ceiling for an under 30s 55-60 point player with a manageable cap hit and defensive upside to boot. Since when is that mortgaging the future?
Actually, it's quite rare for a team in the middle of a playoff push or coming off a playoff season to deal their captain.

Do bottom dwellers like CBJ deal their captains? Sure they do. Do teams like the Kings and Flyers? Almost never.

This should be a red flag. I didn't say it means he should be avoided at all costs, but it should make you do a little more digging. When a team gives someone the C, it takes a lot for them to be willing to trade that player. Let alone in the middle of a playoff push.

Beyond that, we just disagree about Brown's abilities. Simmonds is 23 and getting better. I see him being every bit as a equal or better than Brown going forward. He is already on pace for a 30-25-55 season in his first year w/ the Flyers.

And Hartnell is on pace for over 75 points this season. Yes, I doubt that Brown could ever put up 75 points.

And even if you disagree about those two players being better or equal to Brown, you have to agree that they fill a similar role on the team.

Unless one of those two guys are going the other way, Brown becomes redundant on this team.

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02-24-2012, 02:25 PM
  #54
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The pieces talked about in this thread to acquire Brown I'd rather keep, or use to try and acquire Weber. Brown isn't a need.

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02-24-2012, 02:30 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
The pieces talked about in this thread to acquire Brown I'd rather keep, or use to try and acquire Weber. Brown isn't a need.
No matter what everyone says about possible trades we are not the GM so if homer trades JVR for brown so be it i'll be glad when to deadline passes...

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02-24-2012, 02:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Hartnell and Brown have pretty much had the exact same career
You're joking right? Hartnell has passed 50 points twice in his ten year career, Brown has done it every year except once in his six year career. And that is just comparing stats, not looking at the defensive part of the game.

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Originally Posted by RetiredFlyer View Post
Actually, it's quite rare for a team in the middle of a playoff push or coming off a playoff season to deal their captain.

Do bottom dwellers like CBJ deal their captains? Sure they do. Do teams like the Kings and Flyers? Almost never.

This should be a red flag. I didn't say it means he should be avoided at all costs, but it should make you do a little more digging. When a team gives someone the C, it takes a lot for them to be willing to trade that player. Let alone in the middle of a playoff push.
It's true it doesn't often happen in the middle of a season, but it the Kings have a unique team, with Mike Richards waiting in the wings and apparently next in line for that C. Even if that wasn't the case, it wouldn't be (at least not IMO) related to his leadership abilities. By all accounts, Brown is in excellent captain. I've never seen or read anything anywhere that would suggest otherwise. Doesn't mean it isn't true, I know, but I'm not going to base my opinion on an unprovable theory. In other words, until someone within the Kings or elsewhere comes out and questions his leadership for reasons other than he is on the trading block, I'm not going to be concerned with that aspect of his game.

Quote:
Beyond that, we just disagree about Brown's abilities. Simmonds is 23 and getting better. I see him being every bit as a equal or better than Brown going forward. He is already on pace for a 30-25-55 season in his first year w/ the Flyers.

And Hartnell is on pace for over 75 points this season. Yes, I doubt that Brown could ever put up 75 points.
I guess we really do disagree here. Let me ask you this, before this season did you think Scott Hartnell could ever put up 75 points? I know the general consensus around here that his lone 60 point season (which also happened to be his lone 50 point season until this one) was an aberration and he was essentially a scrub.

Quote:
And even if you disagree about those two players being better or equal to Brown, you have to agree that they fill a similar role on the team.

Unless one of those two guys are going the other way, Brown becomes redundant on this team.
I agree that they are filling similar roles, but I'd also agree that if we want that role filled, I'd prefer Brown to be filling it. And there is nothing wrong with having three or even four players of this ilk on the team. Not every player is going to be a PPG player. Adding another 60 point player who is far superior on defense and most other aspects of the game in exchange for another 60 point player (and that is being generous to JvR at this point considering he hasn't sniffed 60 points yet) who is not exactly a defensive stuff does not seem like a crazy idea.

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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
The pieces talked about in this thread to acquire Brown I'd rather keep, or use to try and acquire Weber. Brown isn't a need.
I agree with you there, but if Weber isn't an option (which at this point he doesn't seem to be) I'd take a defensive forward like Brown. That being said, it looks like LA put the kibosh on this whole Dustin Brown rumor anyway.

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02-24-2012, 02:45 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by RetiredFlyer View Post
Actually, it's quite rare for a team in the middle of a playoff push or coming off a playoff season to deal their captain.

Do bottom dwellers like CBJ deal their captains? Sure they do. Do teams like the Kings and Flyers? Almost never.

This should be a red flag. I didn't say it means he should be avoided at all costs, but it should make you do a little more digging. When a team gives someone the C, it takes a lot for them to be willing to trade that player. Let alone in the middle of a playoff push.

Beyond that, we just disagree about Brown's abilities. Simmonds is 23 and getting better. I see him being every bit as a equal or better than Brown going forward. He is already on pace for a 30-25-55 season in his first year w/ the Flyers.

And Hartnell is on pace for over 75 points this season. Yes, I doubt that Brown could ever put up 75 points.

And even if you disagree about those two players being better or equal to Brown, you have to agree that they fill a similar role on the team.

Unless one of those two guys are going the other way, Brown becomes redundant on this team.
This is what I was talking about.

Whether or not Brown is better than Hartnell or Simmonds is irrelevant, its the fact that they're the same type of player that makes Brown redundant.

You can say he would put up 75 points with Giroux if you want, but it doesn't matter because the point is he'd be providing the same role as Hartnell.

We'd wind up with another 2nd line grinder/power forward, when what we need is a replacement for Jagr. There's no guarantee that JvR is that, but he's our best shot.

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02-24-2012, 02:46 PM
  #58
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can we do Jagr and Read for brown? LA would say yes to that right? :-p

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02-24-2012, 02:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You're joking right? Hartnell has passed 50 points twice in his ten year career, Brown has done it every year except once in his six year career. And that is just comparing stats, not looking at the defensive part of the game.
Technically, you're right.

On other hand:

Brown:
574 GP-
156G
181A
337P (.58 PPG)

Hartnell
820 GP
213 G
250 A
463 P (.56PPG)

It really isn't that out of line to suggest that they have had similar kinds of careers to date, is it?

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02-24-2012, 02:57 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
...am I reading that wrong, or did Elliot Friedman just try to say that he "can't wait" until the trade deadline craziness is over?

If so, I call shenanigans.
This is hell for writers. They're constantly annoying sources, which annoy GM's, and they have do work on the bull crap fake rumors started by anonymous hockey bloggers and/or tweeters

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02-24-2012, 03:01 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
This is hell for writers. They're constantly annoying sources, which annoy GM's, and they have do work on the bull crap fake rumors started by anonymous hockey bloggers and/or tweeters
Fair enough...

On the other hand, he gets paid to cover hockey. I'm not overly sympathetic.

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02-24-2012, 03:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Technically, you're right.

On other hand:

Brown:
574 GP-
156G
181A
337P (.58 PPG)

Hartnell
820 GP
213 G
250 A
463 P (.56PPG)

It really isn't that out of line to suggest that they have had similar kinds of careers to date, is it?
I suppose if you want to look only at PPG, then yes obviously they are similar. That is a misleading stat, however. If you look at point totals of the seasons, Hartnell's are between the mid 30s and mid 40s with a couple higher. Brown's, on a smaller timeline are mainly in the 50s. Not to mention the fact that Brown brings a whole lot more tot he table than just points. Hartnell brings some grit and plays hard every night. But he is an awful skater and not exactly a Selke trophy candidate.

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02-24-2012, 03:07 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I suppose if you want to look only at PPG, then yes obviously they are similar. That is a misleading stat, however. If you look at point totals of the seasons, Hartnell's are between the mid 30s and mid 40s with a couple higher. Brown's, on a smaller timeline are mainly in the 50s. Not to mention the fact that Brown brings a whole lot more tot he table than just points. Hartnell brings some grit and plays hard every night. But he is an awful skater and not exactly a Selke trophy candidate.
Player GP GPG APG
Brown 574 0.271777003 0.31533101
Hartnell 820 0.259756098 0.304878049

a slightly better Hartnell

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02-24-2012, 03:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I suppose if you want to look only at PPG, then yes obviously they are similar. That is a misleading stat, however. If you look at point totals of the seasons, Hartnell's are between the mid 30s and mid 40s with a couple higher. Brown's, on a smaller timeline are mainly in the 50s. Not to mention the fact that Brown brings a whole lot more tot he table than just points. Hartnell brings some grit and plays hard every night. But he is an awful skater and not exactly a Selke trophy candidate.

...Ok... I'll skip the stuff at the end (I think you're underrating Hartnell's defense and exagerating Brown's), but please tell me how the rest of that makes any sense.

How can one player regularly finish in the 50s for points, playing fewer games over his career, and have essentially the same career PPG? It's because two of Hartnell's lowest-scoring season (2003-2004 and 2006-2007) he missed significant time (nearly 1/4 of his team's games). If you project those two seasons out, he's easily over 50 in both cases.

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02-24-2012, 03:15 PM
  #65
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Forget Brown, we need to concentrate on completely re-building our defence. There are too many mediocre players receiving wages that they don't deserve. I'd be entirely happy trading Meszaros and Coburn whilst letting Carle walk. The two new guys have a little time to prove they deserve a new deal.

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02-24-2012, 03:23 PM
  #66
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Wow, DFF, I havent seen you so passionate about a player in such a long time lol. Even when defending Homer you werent this passionate.

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02-24-2012, 03:31 PM
  #67
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i think the flyers need a center more than a winger, i dont know who, but the flyers really a good faceoff pk center, not a top piece but someone thats good, big and can hit, briere and giroux are more wingers than centers.

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02-24-2012, 03:50 PM
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I would love Brown on the Flyers but I wouldn't want him in any deal that involved JVR, Schenn, or Couturier.

Brown is like a Hartnell or a Simmonds, not a natural top line player, talent wise is a 2nd line player. Average on defense not always positioned well, not a great shot an average finisher, not much of a playmaker ether, pretty bad fighter.

He is great as far as forechecking, hitting, effort, leadership qualities... but I wouldn't want to give up a star potential prospect for him.

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02-24-2012, 04:22 PM
  #69
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In the minority here, but I'd trade JVR straight up for Brown this very second.

Yes, JVR is young and has "potential." He'll be a very good player. But Brown is a very complete player, and a durable player, who would bring a good two way game and a lot of stability. This team has a ton of excellent young guys, and if anything, they're more redundant than Brown would be. Brown's 27, he has at least 7 years left in him. For the 15 less points he'll score a year than JVR will someday, he more than makes up for it.

Besides, what team could even try to match up against this top 6:
Hartnell/Giroux/Brown
Jagr/Briere/Voracek

It would be a very smart move.

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02-24-2012, 04:37 PM
  #70
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In the minority here, but I'd trade JVR straight up for Brown this very second.

Yes, JVR is young and has "potential." He'll be a very good player. But Brown is a very complete player, and a durable player, who would bring a good two way game and a lot of stability. This team has a ton of excellent young guys, and if anything, they're more redundant than Brown would be. Brown's 27, he has at least 7 years left in him. For the 15 less points he'll score a year than JVR will someday, he more than makes up for it.

Besides, what team could even try to match up against this top 6:
Hartnell/Giroux/Brown
Jagr/Briere/Voracek

It would be a very smart move.
That's exactly why I wouldn't trade for Brown. That is an average top 6.

None of our young wingers have real top line potential except JvR, and Voracek may not be here next year.

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02-24-2012, 04:39 PM
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That's exactly why I wouldn't trade for Brown. That is an average top 6.

None of our young wingers have real top line potential except JvR, and Voracek may not be here next year.
BROWN PRODUCES MORE POINTS NOW THAN JVR DOES.

They don't have an average top 6 now.

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02-24-2012, 04:45 PM
  #72
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In the minority here, but I'd trade JVR straight up for Brown this very second.

Yes, JVR is young and has "potential." He'll be a very good player. But Brown is a very complete player, and a durable player, who would bring a good two way game and a lot of stability. This team has a ton of excellent young guys, and if anything, they're more redundant than Brown would be. Brown's 27, he has at least 7 years left in him. For the 15 less points he'll score a year than JVR will someday, he more than makes up for it.

Besides, what team could even try to match up against this top 6:
Hartnell/Giroux/Brown
Jagr/Briere/Voracek

It would be a very smart move.
What I don't get is I feel people who say this don't account for the different roles. For example if you put Crosby, Giroux, Ovechkin, Toews, the Sedins, Nash, Kesler, Iginla, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, etc. all on the same NHL team. Common sense would say though this would be a very dangerous team many of those players would see a big decline in numbers because they would have less ice time or different roles. Same deal when looking at Brown.

Brown is on pace for 20 goals this season on 224 shots while playing 20:21 minutes a game. This is similar for his past seasons, last year 28 goals on 228 shots playing 19:22 a game. 24 goals, 248 shots, on 19:15 before that. 24 goals, 292 shots, on 19:24 before that.

On the Flyers as far as forwards go this season only Giroux averages more ice time at 21:40 a game. The 2nd place player is Briere who averages 17:48. As far as shots go had Giroux played 82 games this season he would be on pace for 261, and Hartnell would be on pace for 228 (4 more shots). Those are the only 2 Flyers who are on a higher shot pace.

In other words Dustin Brown's production requires a lot of ice time and a lot of the offense. If he is added to the Flyers ether his production will decline or someone else's will decline. About 25 goals a year and 55 points for a player who is eating up 1st line star minutes and taking that many shots just isn't efficient in my eyes.

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02-24-2012, 04:48 PM
  #73
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BROWN PRODUCES MORE POINTS NOW THAN JVR DOES.

They don't have an average top 6 now.
JVR has played fewer games. His production is actually higher then Browns. If you look at the 82 game pace Brown would have 20 goals, 23 assists, for 43 points. JVR would have 23 goals, 27 assists, for 49 points. JVR doing this averaging 15:14 minutes a game while Brown averages 20:21 minutes a game.

So JVR's production is actually higher.

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02-24-2012, 04:55 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Science View Post
BROWN PRODUCES MORE POINTS NOW THAN JVR DOES.

They don't have an average top 6 now.
There are at least 4 second line players in that top 6. Probably 5 unless one of Jagr/Hartnell can perform like this again next year.

Jagr may not be here next year, and may have a regression in scoring. Hartnell is having a career year, and if he plays with Giroux he'll probably have another good year next year but like this? I'm not so sure.

Also, a line of Hartnell-Giroux-Brown makes no sense. You have your best player with two 2nd line grinder/power forwards. You also have Jagr with Briere, and that's a recipe for defensive magic. Even ignoring your line combos, we still do not have a legitimate 1st line winger.

Furthermore, our top 6 is average. Aside from the beginning of the year when the first line was tearing it up, we've had an average top 6. We've scored so many goals because we get goal scoring from all 4 lines.

You can't have a team made up of all the same player. We'd have all grinders and playmakers, and no goal scorers.

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02-24-2012, 04:57 PM
  #75
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We shouldnt be trading important parts of our young core of forwards for anything but young defensive prospects with top pairing potential or for already established top pairing defenseman.

Brown is a nice piece, but we need to start revamping our defense for the future.

I'd pass unless they want to take something like voracek and carle, BC I'm not sure that the flyers will resign either of them.

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