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Making sense of All Star Defense voting 1931-1943

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02-23-2012, 01:16 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Making sense of All Star Defense voting 1931-1943

It's really hard to know what to make of defenseman voting from 1931-1943. The data presented in the stickied thread lists total votes for first and second team LD and RD but doesn't try to add them up. I think I figured out the method used to calculate All Star Teams during the period.

Assumption 1: The LD/RD split doesn't actually matter, except as a tie break.

Examples:

1933-34
"Eddie Shore (suspended 16 games for nearly killing Ace Bailey) still earned a spot on the 2nd all-star team, narrowly beating Earl Seibert. Both players had 10 first-place votes and 8 second-place votes. Shore was given the spot on the second team because of the breakdown of left/right defense positions."

1938-39

DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Eddie Shore, Bos 26; Dit Clapper, Bos 3; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Walt Buswell, Mtl 1; Earl Seibert, Chi 1; Jack Crawford, Bos 1
LEFT D: Dit Clapper, Bos 7; Art Coulter, NYR 6; Eddie Shore, Bos 4; Earl Seibert, Chi 3; Babe Siebert, Mtl 2; Ott Heller, NYR 2; Muzz Patrick, NYR 1; Jack Portland, Bos 1; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 1; Red Horner, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1 (29)
ALTERNATE TEAM: RIGHT D: Art Coulter, NYR 12; Earl Seibert, Chi 11; Eddie Shore, Bos 2; Walt Buswell, Mtl 2; Jack Portland, Bos 2 (29)
LEFT D: Dit Clapper, Bos 6; Jack Portland, Bos 6; Babe Siebert, Mtl 3; Ralph Bowman, Det 3; Earl Seibert, Chi 3; Stewart Evans, Mtl 2; Jack Crawford, Bos 2; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 2; Red Horner, Tor 2; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Ott Heller, NYR 1; Walt Buswell, Mtl 1; Art Wiebe, Chi 1

Assumption 2: There was no points system used. The 1st Team All Stars were the two players who received the most Total 1st Team Votes. The 2nd Team All Stars were the two players who received the most total 1st+2nd Team votes. The players were officially slotted at LD and RD based on where they received the most votes.

Examples (listed are total 1st team, total 2nd team votes)
1938-39
1. Eddie Shore (30, 2)
2. Dit Clapper (10, 6)
3. Art Coulter (8, 14)
4. Earl Seibert (4, 14)
5. Babe Siebert (2, 3)

If there were 2 points for 1st, 1 point for second, Coulter would have been a 1st Team All Star with 30 points vs 26 for Clapper. Even at 3 points for 1st, 1 point for 2nd, it would still be 38 points for Coulter vs 36 points for Clapper.

1941-42
1. Earl Seibert (18, 6)
2. Tom Anderson (13, 12)
3. Pat Egan (6, 4)
4. Bucko McDonald (3, 7)
5. Jack Crawford (6, 3)

Any possible points system would give Crawford the 2nd Team All Star over McDonald. With a 1st place vote worth 2 points = 15 Crawford, 13 McDonald. With a 1st place vote worth 3 points = 19 points Crawford, 16 points McDonald. If the 1942 data is correct, the only reasonable explanation is that there was no distinction made between votes for 1st Team and 2nd Team when selecting Second Team All Stars


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02-23-2012, 01:23 PM
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Attempting to rank defensemen based on All Star Totals

After playing around with things, this is the method I settled in using to determine placements in the Defenseman project that has just been completed.

1) I left 1st and 2nd Team All Stars fixed. An official 1st Team All Star will always rank 1st or 2nd. An official 2nd Team All Star will always rank 3rd or 4th.

2) I created my own points system. A "1st Team" vote is worth 2 points, a "2nd Team" vote is worth 1 point. Please keep in mind that this is not the method used to actually pick the All Star Teams. It is strictly a tool used to help us see how these defensemen were viewed by the hockey writers at the time and shouldn't be viewed as an official count.

Here are the rankings by my method

Numbers in paranthesis indicated total 1st and total 2nd team votes

1931
1. Eddie Shore (34, 3)
2. King Clancy (22, 8)
3. Sylvio Mantha (8, 17)
4. Ching Johnson (3, 13)
5T. Red Dutton (2, 8)
5T. Lionel Hitchman (2, 8)
7. Ted Graham (2, 2)
8. Hap Day (1, 3)
9. George Owen (0, 3)
10T. Cy Wentworth (0, 2)
10T. Tafft Abel (0, 2)
Jack McVicar (0, 1)
*4 alternative votes missing

1932
1T. Edde Shore (23, 6)
1T. Ching Johnson (22, 8)
3. King Clancy (6, 14)
4. Sylvio Mantha (4, 9)
5. Marty Burke (3, 6)
6. Red Dutton (3, 4)
7. Earl Seibert (1, 5)
8. Cy Wentworth (0, 6)
9. Taffy Abel (0, 2)
George Owen (1, 0)
Reg Noble (1, 0)
Lionel Conacher (0, 1)
Lionel Hitchman (0, 1)
Doug Young (0, 1)
Hap Day (0, 1)

1933
1. Eddie Shore (31, 0)
2. Ching Johnson (19, 11)
3. King Clancy (4, 17)
4. Lionel Conacher (3, 15)
5. Hap Day (4, 1)
6. Bill Brydge (3, 1)
7T. Ted Graham (0, 3)
7T. Taffy Abel (0, 3)
7T. Doug Young (0, 3)
10T. Earl Seibert (0, 2)
10T. Lionel Hitchman (0, 2)
10T. Al Shields (0, 2)
Red Horner (0, 1)
Red Dutton (0, 1)
Sylvio Mantha (0, 1)


1934
1T. King Clancy (21, 8)
1T. Lionel Conacher (20, 10)
3. Ching Johnson (7, 20)
4. Eddie Shore (10, 8)
5. Earl Seibert (10, 8)
6. Hap Day (2, 2)
7. Red Horner (0, 4)
8T. Red Dutton (0, 3)
8T. Sylvio Mantha (0, 3)
10. Ebbie Goodfellow (0, 2)
Al Shields (0, 1)
Gerry Carson (0, 1)
Earl Seibert missed the all-star team via tiebreaker. He tied Shore in first team votes, and 2nd team votes, but trailed in right defense votes

1935*
1. Eddie Shore (24, 6)
2. Earl Seibert (14, 8)
3. Art Coulter (10, 11)
4. Cy Wentworth (3, 11)
5T. Ebbie Goodfellow (4, 3)
5T. Hap Day (3, 5)
5T. King Clancy (2, 7)
8T. Lionel Conacher (2, 4)
8T. Ralph Bowman (1, 6)
10. Red Horner (3, 1)
Red Dutton (0, 1)
Ching Johnson (0, 1)
Walt Buswell (0, 1)
Irv Frew (0, 1)
*there are some discrepencies in these results.

1936
1. Eddie Shore (25, 2)
2. Babe Siebert (12, 7)
3. Ebbie Goodfellow (4, 15)
4. Earl Seibert (5, 11)
5. Cy Wentworth (4, 7)
6. Ching Johnson (4, 4)
7. Art Coulter (3, 4)
8. Lionel Conacher (0, 6)
9. Doug Young (2, 1)
10. Walt Buswell (0, 2)
Andy Blair (1, 0)
Alex Levinsky (1, 0)
Stewart Evans (1, 0)
King Clancy (0, 1)
Bucko McDonald (0, 1)

1937
1. Babe Siebert (21, 0)
2. Ebbie Goodfellow (13, 7)
3. Earl Seibert (6, 15)
4. Lionel Conacher (2, 11)
5. Cy Wentworth (2, 2)
6T. Bucko McDonald (1, 1)
6T. Ott Heller (0, 3)
8T. Red Horner (0, 2)
8T. Art Coulter (0, 2)
Hap Day (1, 0)
Jack Portland (0, 1)
Stewart Evans (0, 1)
Jimmy Fowler (0, 1)

1938
1. Eddie Shore (23, 7)
2. Babe Siebert (23, 4)
3. Art Coulter (9, 11)
4. Earl Seibert (1, 6)
5. Red Horner (1, 5)
6T. Jimmy Fowler (1, 4)
6T. Walt Buswell (1, 4)
8T. Jack Portland (1, 3)
8T. Stewart Evans (0, 5)
10T. Doug Young (1, 2)
10T. Allan Murray (0, 4)
12. Dit Clapper (1, 1)
Flash Hollett (0, 1)
Joe Jerwa (0, 1)
Ott Heller (0, 1)
Hap Day (0, 1)
Babe Pratt (0, 1)
Marty Burke (0, 1)

1939
1. Eddie Shore (30, 2)
2. Dit Clapper (10, 6)
3. Art Coulter (8, 14)
4. Earl Seibert (4, 14)
5. Babe Siebert (2, 3)
6. Jack Portland (1, 8)
7T. Walt Buswell (1, 3)
7T. Ott Heller (2, 1)
8T. Jack Crawford (1, 2)
8T. Ebbie Goodfellow (1, 2)
8T. Red Horner (1, 2)
9. Ralph Bowman (0, 3)
10. Stewart Evans (0, 2)
Babe Pratt (1, 0)
Muzz Patrick (1 ,0)
Art Wiebe (0, 1)

1940
1. Dit Clapper (21, 4)
2. Ebbie Goodfellow (16, 9)
3. Art Coulter (9, 10)
4. Earl Seibert (1, 19)
5. Ott Heller (3, 5)
6. Charlie Conacher (4, 0)
7. Babe Pratt (1, 1)
8. Bingo Kampman (0, 2)
Flash Hollett (1, 0)
Eddie Shore (0, 1)
Red Horner (0, 1)
Doug Young (0, 1)
Joe Cooper (0, 1)
Wilf Field (0, 1)
Red Goupille (0, 1)

1941
1. Dit Clapper (28, 0)
2. Wally Stanowski (10, 7)
3. Earl Seibert (6, 10)
4. Ott Heller (8, 5)
5. Ebbie Goodfellow (2, 11)
6. Bingo Kampman (1, 6)
7. Wilf Field (0, 5)
8T. Jack Crawford (0, 4)
8T. Art Coulter (0, 4)
10T. Jack Stewart (1, 1)
10T. Des Smith (1, 1)
Flash Hollett (1, 0)
Pat Egan (0, 1)
Charlie Conacher (0, 1)
Jimmy Orlander (0, 1)
Babe Pratt (0, 1)

1942
1. Earl Seibert (18, 6)
2. Tom Anderson (13, 12)
3. Pat Egan (6, 4)
4. Bucko McDonald (3, 7)
5. Jack Crawford (6, 3)
6. Dit Clapper (4, 3)
7. Bingo Kampman (2, 6)
8. Art Coulter (3, 3)
9. Babe Pratt (2, 2)
10. Ott Heller (1, 3)
11. Flash Hollett (0, 4)
12. Jack Stewart (1, 1)
13T. Red Goupille (0, 2)
13T. Joe Cooper (0, 2)
Art Wiebe (1, 0)
John Mariucci (0, 1)

1943
1. Jack Stewart (20, 4)
2. Earl Seibert (12, 10)
3T. Jack Crawford (7, 11)
3T. Flash Hollett (9, 7)
5. Babe Pratt (3, 9)
6. Dit Clapper (1, 4)
7. Jack Portland (0, 3)
8. Jimmy Orlando (0, 2)
Art Wiebe (0, 1)
Alex Motter (0, 1)


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02-23-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally, I was assuming 3 points for 1st, 1 point for 2nd in my artificial method, but after I found an article calling Ching Johnson "the most highly regarded player in the National Hockey League" in 1934 for receiving the most total votes, I dropped it to 2 points for 1st, 1 point for 2nd as an attempt to better reflect contemporary perceptions of the vote totals.

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02-23-2012, 01:38 PM
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nice going. I had this done myself but hadn't "released" it. I think I went by the 3-1 system as that was what was official. But you know how I feel about points systems like that, so your system is probably more "logical", if less "official".

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02-23-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Eddie Shore, Bos 26... LEFT D: Eddie Shore, Bos 4...
ALTERNATE TEAM: RIGHT D: Eddie Shore, Bos 2...
So where does the different point/vote numbers in the Right D and Left D column come from? 26 first place votes for Eddie Shore and 4 second place votes for him? But what about the 2 points/votes in the Second Team column?

EDIT: Ah, okay, now I get it. There were actually seperate votings for first team RD and first team LD, that's the part I wasn't sure about anymore.


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02-23-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
nice going. I had this done myself but hadn't "released" it. I think I went by the 3-1 system as that was what was official. But you know how I feel about points systems like that, so your system is probably more "logical", if less "official".
I have seen you say that a 3-1 system was "official" but where did you find that? See my second assumption above. If RD+LD were combined as I think they were, there couldn't have possibly been a points system in place in 1938-39 and 1940-41.

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02-23-2012, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
So where does the different point/vote numbers in the Right D and Left D column come from? 26 first place votes for Eddie Shore and 4 second place votes for him? But what about the 2 points/votes in the Second Team column?
Writers voted for RD and LD seperately and gave each an an "All Star Team" (1st Team) vote and an "Alternate Team" (2nd Team) vote. My hypothesis (which is strongly supported by the 1934 article in particular) is that when actually counting votes, the RD/LD breakdown doesn't matter except as a tie break.

If RD/LD doesn't matter, Shore's total is 26+4 = 30 first team votes; 2+0 = 2 second team votes, which is what I recorded (30, 2)

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02-23-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1942
1. Earl Seibert (18, 6)
2. Tom Anderson (13, 12)
3. Pat Egan (6, 4)
4. Bucko McDonald (3, 7)
5. Jack Crawford (6, 3)
6. Bingo Kampman (2, 6)
7. Art Coulter (3, 3)
8. Babe Pratt (2, 2)
9. Ott Heller (1, 3)
10. Flash Hollett (0, 4)
11T. Jack Stewart (1, 1)
11T. Dit Clapper (0, 3)
12T. Red Goupille (0, 2)
12T. Joe Cooper (0, 2)
Art Wiebe (1, 0)
John Mariucci (0, 1)
Anderson should be (12, 12) and Clapper should be (4, 3).

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02-23-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have seen you say that a 3-1 system was "official" but where did you find that? See my second assumption above. If RD+LD were combined as I think they were, there couldn't have possibly been a points system in place in 1938-39 and 1940-41.
See the tie by Drillon and Dillon at RW in 1937-38.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=35185115&postcount=526

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02-23-2012, 02:02 PM
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Anderson should be (12, 12) and Clapper should be (4, 3).
Good catch on Clapper. Not surprised that I made an error towards the end of compiling the data. I think I'm right on Anderson though.

DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, Chi 13; Dit Clapper, Bos 4; Pat Egan, Bro 4; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Jack Crawford, Bos 2; Ott Heller, NYR 1; Bucko McDonald, Tor 1; Tom Anderson, Bro 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
LEFT D: Tom Anderson, Bro 12; Earl Seibert, Chi 5; Jack Crawford, Bos 4; Bucko McDonald, Tor 2; Pat Egan, Bro 2; Jack Stewart, Det 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1; Art Coulter, NYR 1; Art Wiebe, Chi 1

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02-23-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
See the tie by Drillon and Dillon at RW in 1937-38.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=35185115&postcount=526
I see. That points system is incompatible with the defenseman voting of 1938-39 and 1940-41 though.

Unless they really are making a distinction between RD and LD at the beginning, but 1933-34 tells us that they are not.

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02-23-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Good catch on Clapper. Not surprised that I made an error towards the end of compiling the data. I think I'm right on Anderson though.

DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, Chi 13; Dit Clapper, Bos 4; Pat Egan, Bro 4; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Jack Crawford, Bos 2; Ott Heller, NYR 1; Bucko McDonald, Tor 1; Tom Anderson, Bro 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
LEFT D: Tom Anderson, Bro 12; Earl Seibert, Chi 5; Jack Crawford, Bos 4; Bucko McDonald, Tor 2; Pat Egan, Bro 2; Jack Stewart, Det 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1; Art Coulter, NYR 1; Art Wiebe, Chi 1
Here's what I posted originally http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=35383113&postcount=531

DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, Chi 12; Dit Clapper, Bos 4; Pat Egan, Bro 4; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Jack Crawford, Bos 2; Ott Heller, NYR 1; Bucko McDonald, Tor 1; Tom Anderson, Bro 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
LEFT D: Tom Anderson, Bro 11; Earl Seibert, Chi 5; Jack Crawford, Bos 4; Bucko McDonald, Tor 2; Pat Egan, Bro 2; Jack Stewart, Det 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1; Art Coulter, NYR 1; Art Wiebe, Chi 1

With Seibert getting another vote on the missing ballot, but Anderson not getting one.

Looking back at my files, I seem to have found the last ballot in a french paper, and it does have Anderson on it. I don't think this agrees with the released final votes though.

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02-23-2012, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Here's what I posted originally http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=35383113&postcount=531

DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, Chi 12; Dit Clapper, Bos 4; Pat Egan, Bro 4; Art Coulter, NYR 2; Jack Crawford, Bos 2; Ott Heller, NYR 1; Bucko McDonald, Tor 1; Tom Anderson, Bro 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
LEFT D: Tom Anderson, Bro 11; Earl Seibert, Chi 5; Jack Crawford, Bos 4; Bucko McDonald, Tor 2; Pat Egan, Bro 2; Jack Stewart, Det 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1; Art Coulter, NYR 1; Art Wiebe, Chi 1

With Seibert getting another vote on the missing ballot, but Anderson not getting one.

Looking back at my files, I seem to have found the last ballot in a french paper, and it does have Anderson on it. I don't think this agrees with the released final votes though.
Ugh, looks like these are never going to be completely accurate.

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02-23-2012, 03:02 PM
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I'm glad you posted this, because this specific topic has been driving me nuts lately. Especially since we started the top-60.

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02-23-2012, 03:06 PM
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I'm glad you posted this, because this specific topic has been driving me nuts lately. Especially since we started the top-60.
I've refined the method since the start of the top 60. If you remember, I had both Lionel Conacher and Ching Johnson with their top season listed as "2" because I was using the "3 points for 1st, 1 point for 2nd" system. But when I read the article calling Ching the most highly regarded player in the NHL for getting the most total votes, I changed it to "2 points for 1st, 1 point for 2nd" to more accurately reflect perceptions, which moves both Conacher and Ching to a tie for 1st in their career seasons.

Either way, it looks more likely than not that they weren't using a points system, at least not for the 1939-1941 time frame. I have no idea what to make of the fact that apparently there was a 3-1 points system for the 1938 RW vote.

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02-24-2012, 04:21 PM
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The most striking thing to me is just how much more highly regarded Art Coulter was than Earl Seibert for the three year stretch from 1937-38 to 1939-40, despite both officially showing up as 2nd Teamers.

Edit: Though I guess Coulter's edge in first place votes could be that he wasn't playing on the same side as Eddie Shore. Despite the fact that the LD/RD spilt doesn't seem to matter for determining positions, the writers were still voting for them by position.


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