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Old
02-06-2012, 04:44 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Do you base that on anything besides this season, and his Super Bowls?
Eli is going to probably be over 40,000 yards when his career is over and most of those guys are in.

You win multiple Super Bowls as a QB, you get in. Especially in freaken New York. So long as it's not in spite of the QB. Same goes if you want to go back for just straight NFL Championships. Same reason Roethlisberger will get in as long as he stops having misunderstandings in bathrooms.

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02-06-2012, 04:55 PM
  #277
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Curtis Martin is 4th all time in rushing so he had to be in. It's also the hardest position to remain good at for a long time.
He absolutely deserves to be in. Martin was a horse, but he gained those yards more out of durability than sheer talent. Personally I would have rather seen it go to one of the WRs this year.

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02-06-2012, 06:54 PM
  #278
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Eli is going to probably be over 40,000 yards when his career is over and most of those guys are in.

You win multiple Super Bowls as a QB, you get in. Especially in freaken New York. So long as it's not in spite of the QB. Same goes if you want to go back for just straight NFL Championships. Same reason Roethlisberger will get in as long as he stops having misunderstandings in bathrooms.

Those are the specific reasons that annoy me because they really aren't reasons at all. Especially the New York thing. Who cares that he played for New York? Who cares that he's a Manning? These are not things that make him better than anyone else. They are in no way related to his ability.

The 40,000 yard thing is at least related to his ability, but 40,000 yards isn't exactly what it used to be. There are going to be a lot of guys that are in that area or eclipse it completely if the league continues to favor the offense more and more. Right now we're in the NFL's equivalent of the NHL's 80's as far as QB's are concerned.

Mcnabb for instance would be right there now if he hadn't fallen off a cliff this season. No one is going to be clamoring for him to be in the Hall, but if he had won a Super Bowl in one of those years I'm sure there would be. To me that just doesn't make sense.


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02-06-2012, 07:15 PM
  #279
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I was discussing this with a friend earlier, and there are so many variables that go into whether or not a QB is HoF worthy or better than another player. You can't just use stats, because you have guys like McNabb, Bledsoe, and Kerry Collins who are in the top 20 passing all time, higher than Jim Kelly, Aikman, Bradshaw, Simms, Staubach, etc. Hell, Jon Kitna is 39th overall. But if you factor in just championships, then Peyton struggles (yes he has one, but it took him awhile to get it, with a great team), Marino obviously, Fouts, Kelly, Moon, etc.

Right now I think it's just discrestion of the voters. Personally I think both Cris Carter and Tim Brown should have been first-ballot HoFers, because WRs only affect their teams success so much. Statisically they were both spectacular, and didn't play TOO long (to the point of irrelevance). But neither of them are in, and they've both been up for a couple years now.

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02-06-2012, 07:52 PM
  #280
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QB is the most important single position, but it's not more important than an entire unit. His statistics, this season aside, are only above average. He throws for a good amount of yards, but also turns the ball over a ton. I believe this was his only season with a top 10 QB rating, let a lone a top 5.

Like I said, if he replicates this year a couple more times than I think he'll deserve to be in, but as of now I don't think that he deserves it on his own merit. I think it's just because people still give QB's more credit/blame than they really deserve.
I would agree with you if he didn't win the first championship and have those two Super Bowl MVP's. I don't know the stats, but I'd have to guess if he isn't the only one to ever do that, the number is very small. That is a pretty big accomplishment. HOF worthy. I've hated the guy since day 1 when he refused to go to San Diego so it kills me to give the guy any credit, but the guys pretty much punched his ticket to the Hall last night.

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02-07-2012, 12:18 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Those are the specific reasons that annoy me because they really aren't reasons at all. Especially the New York thing. Who cares that he played for New York? Who cares that he's a Manning? These are not things that make him better than anyone else. They are in no way related to his ability.

The 40,000 yard thing is at least related to his ability, but 40,000 yards isn't exactly what it used to be. There are going to be a lot of guys that are in that area or eclipse it completely if the league continues to favor the offense more and more. Right now we're in the NFL's equivalent of the NHL's 80's as far as QB's are concerned.

Mcnabb for instance would be right there now if he hadn't fallen off a cliff this season. No one is going to be clamoring for him to be in the Hall, but if he had won a Super Bowl in one of those years I'm sure there would be. To me that just doesn't make sense.
So, if 40,000 is a drop in the bucket, what do you think HOF voters are going to weigh when they discuss Kerry Collins vs. Eli Manning?

McNabb might have gotten there, but he didn't. And he never won a Super Bowl. And it's not because he kept getting hurt. He simply wasn't good enough long enough to get to those levels. Quarterback play is so good now, that there isn't any room for if's, and's, or but's.

And New York matters. It's New York. They make it matter. That's what makes them New York.

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02-07-2012, 03:04 AM
  #282
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Hey at least Eli's only road playoff loss is to the Eagles .

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02-07-2012, 08:37 AM
  #283
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So, if 40,000 is a drop in the bucket, what do you think HOF voters are going to weigh when they discuss Kerry Collins vs. Eli Manning?

McNabb might have gotten there, but he didn't. And he never won a Super Bowl. And it's not because he kept getting hurt. He simply wasn't good enough long enough to get to those levels. Quarterback play is so good now, that there isn't any room for if's, and's, or but's.

And New York matters. It's New York. They make it matter. That's what makes them New York.
Ok well I guess that your school of thought is just the school of thought that I think is antiquated. You're judging a player's ability based on things that only have something to do with it, and others that have nothing to do with his ability. Playing in New York or having a famous last name has nothing to do with how talented someone is.

And yes Mcnabb would most certainly be there if he had not gotten hurt, as he is about 2,000 yards away from the mark. He may still get there if he can manage a decent bounce back season somewhere. But no he never won a SB.

I also never said that 40,000 yards was a drop in the bucket, so if you're going to have a discussion with me I'd appreciate it if you didn't twist what I say.

I said 40,000 yards isn't what it used to be, which is clear because guys like Mcnabb, Kerry Collins, Testaverde, and Bledsoe are all there or very close, and there will be others if the league continues the trend of catering to the QB.

Another point is that using yards isn't necessarily an effective way to measure a QB over a career either. If you can remain healthy for a long enough period of time, a counting statistic like yards is going to make you seem like you were better than you really were.

You have to take a lot of things into account to judge a player, and that is really all I'm trying to say. That people don't take enough things into consideration when it comes to QB's. It's almost like starting pitchers in baseball.

I'd rather look at TD's, INT's, TD/gm, INT/gm, yards, yards/gm, yards/a, yards/c, TD %, INT %, TD-INT Ratio, how he throws out patters, how quick he gets rid of the ball, how he moves in the pocket, how he throws a deep ball, if he hits receivers in stride, if he puts the ball in the correct spot, if he shows poise and the ability to handle pressure.

Through his career Eli has done some of that really well, and some not so well. When you look at his stats, and him you see a pretty good QB. When you look at this season you see a great QB. One season of great doesn't mean you actually are great. Yet, people are going to call him that because they don't look at enough of the factors that go in to being great.

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Hey at least Eli's only road playoff loss is to the Eagles .
I'm sure this, and the Eagles being the last team to beat the Giants will come from Joe Banner's mouth at some point as he reminds us that the Eagles are the gold standard of professional football.


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02-07-2012, 10:09 AM
  #284
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Those are the specific reasons that annoy me because they really aren't reasons at all. Especially the New York thing. Who cares that he played for New York? Who cares that he's a Manning? These are not things that make him better than anyone else. They are in no way related to his ability
Do you think being a Manning really helps the way he's perceived? Constantly being compared to his brother?

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02-07-2012, 10:27 AM
  #285
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Do you think being a Manning really helps the way he's perceived? Constantly being compared to his brother?
I think it definitely does now.

This was his first year where he's played like his brother, but there are now going to be people debating whether he's better or not. People get overrated all the time because of their bloodlines. I've always thought he got somewhat overrated by the NY/Manning situation.

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02-07-2012, 10:34 AM
  #286
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Ok well I guess that your school of thought is just the school of thought that I think is antiquated. You're judging a player's ability based on things that only have something to do with it, and others that have nothing to do with his ability. Playing in New York or having a famous last name has nothing to do with how talented someone is.

And yes Mcnabb would most certainly be there if he had not gotten hurt, as he is about 2,000 yards away from the mark. He may still get there if he can manage a decent bounce back season somewhere. But no he never won a SB.

I also never said that 40,000 yards was a drop in the bucket, so if you're going to have a discussion with me I'd appreciate it if you didn't twist what I say.

I said 40,000 yards isn't what it used to be, which is clear because guys like Mcnabb, Kerry Collins, Testaverde, and Bledsoe are all there or very close, and there will be others if the league continues the trend of catering to the QB.

Another point is that using yards isn't necessarily an effective way to measure a QB over a career either. If you can remain healthy for a long enough period of time, a counting statistic like yards is going to make you seem like you were better than you really were.

You have to take a lot of things into account to judge a player, and that is really all I'm trying to say. That people don't take enough things into consideration when it comes to QB's. It's almost like starting pitchers in baseball.

I'd rather look at TD's, INT's, TD/gm, INT/gm, yards, yards/gm, yards/a, yards/c, TD %, INT %, TD-INT Ratio, how he throws out patters, how quick he gets rid of the ball, how he moves in the pocket, how he throws a deep ball, if he hits receivers in stride, if he puts the ball in the correct spot, if he shows poise and the ability to handle pressure.

Through his career Eli has done some of that really well, and some not so well. When you look at his stats, and him you see a pretty good QB. When you look at this season you see a great QB. One season of great doesn't mean you actually are great. Yet, people are going to call him that because they don't look at enough of the factors that go in to being great.



I'm sure this, and the Eagles being the last team to beat the Giants will come from Joe Banner's mouth at some point as he reminds us that the Eagles are the gold standard of professional football.
McNabb basically has to pull a Kurt Warner, and that will be difficult. He's not going to be trusted to be a #1, if he is he's going to have to win a competition, AND probably need someone to get hurt. As I'm writing this, he should try to latch on with the Jets if they don't go after Manning.

As for remaining healthy for long enough, that's not even it. Kerry Collins, Vinny Testaverde and Dave Krieg aren't getting in. And if you're getting passed around at the end of your career when you weren't on that caliber for the one team you're most known for, you're not getting in. And McNabb's propensity for being completely unclutch matters as well. Playing 4-6 extra years like those guys did/are won't fool anyone.

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02-07-2012, 10:45 AM
  #287
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McNabb basically has to pull a Kurt Warner, and that will be difficult. He's not going to be trusted to be a #1, if he is he's going to have to win a competition, AND probably need someone to get hurt. As I'm writing this, he should try to latch on with the Jets if they don't go after Manning.

As for remaining healthy for long enough, that's not even it. Kerry Collins, Vinny Testaverde and Dave Krieg aren't getting in. And if you're getting passed around at the end of your career when you weren't on that caliber for the one team you're most known for, you're not getting in. And McNabb's propensity for being completely unclutch matters as well. Playing 4-6 extra years like those guys did/are won't fool anyone.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me that the 40,000 yard mark, and judging people solely on yards isn't a great way to go about it?

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02-07-2012, 10:54 AM
  #288
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me that the 40,000 yard mark, and judging people solely on yards isn't a great way to go about it?
I simply used that at one example. The rest of the numbers have to be good enough to be around enough to get to 40,000 yards. Like I said, most of those guys are in. And Eli is going to be closer to 50,000 than 40,000.

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02-07-2012, 11:18 AM
  #289
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I simply used that at one example. The rest of the numbers have to be good enough to be around enough to get to 40,000 yards. Like I said, most of those guys are in. And Eli is going to be closer to 50,000 than 40,000.
Most of those guys also played when it was a much tougher league for a QB, and much, much less of a passing league. Which is why I said 40,000 yards isn't exactly what it used to be; if you stay healthy and are merely good, the way the league is now, you'll be right there...like Mcnabb.

EDIT: To Illustrate this:

There were 14 4,000+ yard passing seasons in the 80's and 1 5,000 yard season.

There were 20 4,000+ yard passing seasons in the 90's, most post 1995, and no 5,000 yard seasons.

Last year there were 10 4,000+ yard passing seasons, 3 of which were above 5,000 yards, and one (Eli's) that was only 7 yards short.

This is why I believe 40,000 yards in a career isn't what it used to be. To get 40,000 yards you had to be top 3 at your position for a decade, now you have to be top 10

......................................

Add a SB to Mcnabb's resume and the HOF discussion begins, and in my opinion it shouldn't because he was never great. He was good for a decent amount of time. To me it isn't the hall of very good.


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02-07-2012, 01:16 PM
  #290
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I think it definitely does now.

This was his first year where he's played like his brother, but there are now going to be people debating whether he's better or not. People get overrated all the time because of their bloodlines. I've always thought he got somewhat overrated by the NY/Manning situation.
I don't think you can just dismiss the debate about whether or not Eli is better than Peyton. This is a league that has its main focus on the playoffs. If you examine the body of work of the two in the playoffs, it really gets quite interesting.

Eli has a 8-3 record in the playoffs (including a 7-1 mark on the road or on neutral sites). Peyton has a 9-10 record in the playoffs (includes 3 losses in the divisional round after a bye week in seasons the Colts have won 12 or more games in the regular season). I know that wins and losses are a team stat, but the play of both QBs contributed heavily to the outcome of those games. Eli for the most part played extremely well in the playoffs (1 or 2 stinkers here and there) and had a huge role in both Super Bowl runs. In both games he lead his team to last minute game-winnig drives against the Patriots. The Patriots, who are undoubtedly the team of the decade with one of the biggest masterminds as head coach and one of the most clutch QBs to ever play the game. Those same Patriots that Peyton couldn't overcome earlier in his career. Peyton for the most part of his career couldn't duplicate his regular season performances in the playoffs. All those 12-4 and 13-3 Colts teams amassed those records mainly because of outstanding QB play by Peyton and they lost all those playoff games in part because of subpar QB play by him. To sum it up (although I hate the QB rating, it's still a good indicator) Eli has a career 89.3 rating in the playoffs, Peyton has 88.4.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Eli is better than Peyton, you just can't throw all of Peyton's regular season accomplishments out of the window and in seasons past he played a lot better in the playoffs than earlier in his career. I'm just saying there are some arguments out there in favor of Eli and it's not absolutely ridiculous to discuss this, although the outcome of the debate is still unchanged: Peyton > Eli.

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02-07-2012, 03:26 PM
  #291
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Do you think being a Manning really helps the way he's perceived? Constantly being compared to his brother?
I think you can tell he's beginning to hate it. Half the questions he's been asked have been about bragging rights with his brother, or what his brother said to him, or where he was during the game. etc. etc.

Eli's 30, had 2 super bowls, his own team, his own family. I'm sure he's sick of the media placing him in Peyton's shadow.

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02-07-2012, 07:22 PM
  #292
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I don't think you can just dismiss the debate about whether or not Eli is better than Peyton. This is a league that has its main focus on the playoffs. If you examine the body of work of the two in the playoffs, it really gets quite interesting.

Eli has a 8-3 record in the playoffs (including a 7-1 mark on the road or on neutral sites). Peyton has a 9-10 record in the playoffs (includes 3 losses in the divisional round after a bye week in seasons the Colts have won 12 or more games in the regular season). I know that wins and losses are a team stat, but the play of both QBs contributed heavily to the outcome of those games. Eli for the most part played extremely well in the playoffs (1 or 2 stinkers here and there) and had a huge role in both Super Bowl runs. In both games he lead his team to last minute game-winnig drives against the Patriots. The Patriots, who are undoubtedly the team of the decade with one of the biggest masterminds as head coach and one of the most clutch QBs to ever play the game. Those same Patriots that Peyton couldn't overcome earlier in his career. Peyton for the most part of his career couldn't duplicate his regular season performances in the playoffs. All those 12-4 and 13-3 Colts teams amassed those records mainly because of outstanding QB play by Peyton and they lost all those playoff games in part because of subpar QB play by him. To sum it up (although I hate the QB rating, it's still a good indicator) Eli has a career 89.3 rating in the playoffs, Peyton has 88.4.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Eli is better than Peyton, you just can't throw all of Peyton's regular season accomplishments out of the window and in seasons past he played a lot better in the playoffs than earlier in his career. I'm just saying there are some arguments out there in favor of Eli and it's not absolutely ridiculous to discuss this, although the outcome of the debate is still unchanged: Peyton > Eli.
I get what you're saying, but the regular season numbers are so heavily in the favor of Peyton that it just isn't close IMO. The playoffs provide a small sample, and QB's are definitely not everything. Eli's first ring was mainly because of his defense, and in the year the Colts won the SB Manning actually didn't have that good of a playoff if I remember correctly. He has had several very good games in the playoffs, and yet his team has still lost because of reasons that had nothing to do with him.

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02-08-2012, 12:14 AM
  #293
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Most of those guys also played when it was a much tougher league for a QB, and much, much less of a passing league. Which is why I said 40,000 yards isn't exactly what it used to be; if you stay healthy and are merely good, the way the league is now, you'll be right there...like Mcnabb.

EDIT: To Illustrate this:

There were 14 4,000+ yard passing seasons in the 80's and 1 5,000 yard season.

There were 20 4,000+ yard passing seasons in the 90's, most post 1995, and no 5,000 yard seasons.

Last year there were 10 4,000+ yard passing seasons, 3 of which were above 5,000 yards, and one (Eli's) that was only 7 yards short.

This is why I believe 40,000 yards in a career isn't what it used to be. To get 40,000 yards you had to be top 3 at your position for a decade, now you have to be top 10

......................................

Add a SB to Mcnabb's resume and the HOF discussion begins, and in my opinion it shouldn't because he was never great. He was good for a decent amount of time. To me it isn't the hall of very good.
Quarterbacking is different now. And better. I think your argument works better for those who out-perform expectations of that era.

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02-08-2012, 08:06 AM
  #294
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Quarterbacking is different now. And better. I think your argument works better for those who out-perform expectations of that era.
Different? Yes. Better? That's debatable.

The point is it is easier for QB's to amass yards than it has ever been. Like I said before this is the NFL's version of the NHL's 80's.

Would Wayne Gretzky score 92 goals if he played in this era?

Would Phillip Rivers throw for 4,000 yards 4 years in a row in the 80's-early 90's?

The league now is geared towards offense, specifically the passing game. The rules have made it incredibly difficult to play defense, and play calling has shifted league wide to incorporate the pass far more than ever before. I guess Andy Reid was ahead of his time with 70-30 pass-run ratio...

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02-08-2012, 08:37 AM
  #295
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Different? Yes. Better? That's debatable.

The point is it is easier for QB's to amass yards than it has ever been. Like I said before this is the NFL's version of the NHL's 80's.

Would Wayne Gretzky score 92 goals if he played in this era?

Would Phillip Rivers throw for 4,000 yards 4 years in a row in the 80's-early 90's?

The league now is geared towards offense, specifically the passing game. The rules have made it incredibly difficult to play defense, and play calling has shifted league wide to incorporate the pass far more than ever before. I guess Andy Reid was ahead of his time with 70-30 pass-run ratio...
One of the reasons why teams just focused on running first and second down and throwing on third was because quarterbacks werent that talented. Marino and to some extent elway changed that. They did things defenses had never seen before. I guarentee you if you put rivers in the early 90's he would be tearing up the league.

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02-08-2012, 09:11 AM
  #296
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One of the reasons why teams just focused on running first and second down and throwing on third was because quarterbacks werent that talented. Marino and to some extent elway changed that. They did things defenses had never seen before. I guarentee you if you put rivers in the early 90's he would be tearing up the league.
Was it because they weren't as talented or because the game was geared towards defense, and because the philosophy of the play calling was completely different?

I don't know if Rivers would be given the opportunity to tear the league up, unless he had a coach willing to go against the grain and pass more than he ran. Then there's also the problem of the rules favoring the defense, or at least making it easier for them to do their job.

There is no disputing how much the game has changed since the early 90's. These past few years, and going forward is going to be the most ridiculous time for QB's the NFL has ever seen because everything is in place for them to have success.

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02-23-2012, 05:08 PM
  #297
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Eagles sign Trent Edwards to battle Kafka for backup job.

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02-23-2012, 06:30 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Eagles sign Trent Edwards to battle Kafka for backup job.
I'm guessing we'll see him in action next season if you factor in Vick's durability and I don't think they have any other plans for Kafka other than 3rd string.

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02-24-2012, 03:34 PM
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sa cyred
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Originally Posted by Phileeguy View Post
I'm guessing we'll see him in action next season if you factor in Vick's durability and I don't think they have any other plans for Kafka other than 3rd string.
According to twitter, Kafka is the official backup.

That being said, supposedly the Eagles met with RG3. There is no way he isnt gone by 15. Does make me wonder if we plan to trade up to top 5, maybe for the Rams pick.

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02-24-2012, 04:52 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
According to twitter, Kafka is the official backup.

That being said, supposedly the Eagles met with RG3. There is no way he isnt gone by 15. Does make me wonder if we plan to trade up to top 5, maybe for the Rams pick.
While I'd probably spontaneously combust from excitement if the Eagles miraculously managed to land RG3, I wouldn't look into this meeting too much. Besides, teams like Cleveland and Washington -- both of whom should do everything possible to get RG3 -- have more appealing assets to the Rams, in terms of draft picks, to get a deal done to move up to #2 (which is where RG3 will be selected).

Now, if the Eagles were offering St. Louis the #15 pick and, say, a franchise tagged DeSean Jackson (plus one of their two second round picks?), perhaps we could be on to something.

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