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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - JaysCyYoung

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Old
02-24-2012, 12:19 PM
  #1
overpass
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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - JaysCyYoung

JaysCyYoung
Rank Player
1 Bobby Orr
2 Ray Bourque
3 Doug Harvey
4 Eddie Shore
5 Nicklas Lidstrom
6 Denis Potvin
7 Larry Robinson
8 Slava Fetisov
9 Chris Chelios
10 Paul Coffey
11 Red Kelly
12 Al MacInnis
13 Scott Stevens
14 Brad Park
15 Scott Niedermayer
16 Brian Leetch
17 Pierre Pilote
18 Alexander Ragulin
19 Tim Horton
20 Chris Pronger
21 Reg Noble
22 Borje Salming
23 Bill Gadsby
24 Earl Seibert
25 Babe Siebert
26 Valeri Vasiliev
27 Dit Clapper
28 King Clancy
29 Larry Murphy
30 Harry Cameron
31 Rob Blake
32 Rod Langway
33 Bill Quackenbush
34 Jack Stewart
35 Mark Howe
36 Jacques Laperriere
37 Zdeno Chara
38 Sprague Cleghorn
39 Tom Johnson
40 Guy Lapointe
41 Harry Howell
42 Eddie Gerard
43 J.C. Tremblay
44 Butch Bouchard
45 Marcel Pronovost
46 Allan Stanley
47 Carl Brewer
48 Serge Savard
49 George Boucher
50 Ken Reardon
51 Alexander Gusev
52 Sylvio Mantha
53 Sergei Zubov
54 Art Ross
55 Alexei Kasatonov
56 Babe Pratt
57 Doug Wilson
58 Pat Stapleton
59 Sergei Gonchar
60 Phil Housley
61 Eric Desjardins
62 Ebbie Goodfellow
63 Joe Simpson
64 Randy Carlyle
65 Lionel Conacher
66 Vladimir Konstantinov
67 Jean-Guy Talbot
68 Flash Hollett
69 Craig Hartsburg
70 Hap Day
71 Reijo Ruotsalainen
72 Ching Johnson
73 Stefan Persson
74 Moose Vasko
75 Carol Vadnais
76 Bill White
77 Hod Stuart
78 Teppo Numminen
79 Fern Flaman
80 Ted Green

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
Moose Johnson
Jan Suchy
Lester Patrick
Art Coulter
Harvey Pulford
Frantisek Pospisil

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Scott Niedermayer (15)
Alexander Ragulin (18)
Reg Noble (21)
Babe Siebert (25)
Harry Cameron (30)
Rob Blake (31)
Tom Johnson (39)
Harry Howell (41)
Jean-Guy Talbot (67)
Flash Hollett (68)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Red Kelly (11)
Pierre Pilote* (17)
King Clancy (28)
Sprague Cleghorn (38)
Serge Savard (48)
Ching Johnson (72)

Players unique to this list
Alexander Gusev (51)
Craig Hartsburg (69)
Reijo Ruotsalainen (71)
Stefan Persson (73)
Carol Vadnais (75)

*tie

Round Rank 1 Rank 2 Rank 3 Rank 4 Rank 5 Rank 6 Rank 7 Rank 8 Rank 9 Rank 10
Vote 1Bobby OrrRaymond BourqueDoug HarveyNicklas LidstromEddie ShoreDenis PotvinLeonard "Red" KellyViacheslav FetisovLarry Robinson Chris Chelios
Vote 2Denis PotvinLeonard "Red" KellyViacheslav FetisovLarry RobinsonChris CheliosPaul CoffeyKing ClancyPierre PiloteBrad ParkAl MacInnis
Vote 3Paul CoffeyFrancis "King" ClancyAl MacInnisScott StevensSprague CleghornBrad ParkPierre PiloteTim HortonChris ProngerEarl Seibert
Vote 4Scott StevensAl MacInnisEarl SeibertTim HortonChris ProngerBrian LeetchBorje SalmingBill GadsbyDit Clapper Valeri Vasiliev
Vote 5Brian LeetchBorje SalmingScott NiedermayerBill GadsbyDit ClapperMark HoweRod LangwayValeri VasilievBill Quackenbush* Guy Lapointe
Vote 6Scott NiedermayerBill QuackenbushMark HoweRod LangwayEddie GerardJacques LaperriereGuy LapointeSerge SavardJack Stewart Lionel Conacher
Vote 7Scott NiedermayerLarry MurphyZdeno CharaRob BlakeJacques LaperriereGuy LapointeJack StewartCarl BrewerMarcel Pronovost Alexei Kasatonov
Vote 8NONE         
Vote 9Zdeno CharaLarry MurphyRob BlakeKen ReardonCarl BrewerGeorges "Buck" BoucherEmile "Butch" BouchardHarry CameronAlbert "Babe" Siebert Ebbie Goodfellow
Vote 10Georges "Buck" BoucherLarry MurphyAlbert "Babe" SiebertHarry CameronKen ReardonTom JohnsonCarl BrewerAlexander RagulinHarry Howell Allan Stanley
Vote 11Harry CameronTom JohnsonHarry HowellKen ReardonVladimir KonstantinovSylvio Mantha*Allan StanleyLester PatrickAlexander RagulinDoug Wilson
Vote 12Harry CameronHarry HowellAlexander RagulinAllan StanleyFrantisek PospisilSylvio ManthaSergei ZubovHap DayFern FlamanBabe Pratt


Last edited by overpass: 02-24-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old
02-24-2012, 12:31 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Ruotsalainen would have made for an interesting discussion.

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02-24-2012, 12:32 PM
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First thought is Neidermayer over Leetch and Pronger, yikes.

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02-24-2012, 12:43 PM
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Wow, I thought that I ranked Ragulin higher than anybody else.

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02-24-2012, 12:45 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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He seems to have changed his mind a lot in Round 2 - he ranks Kelly and Clancy much higher than he did in Round 1. Also seems to have a change of heart about Konstantinov between votes 11 and 12.

He definitely has more respect for modern players than most participants - just look at votes 7 and 9.

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02-24-2012, 12:46 PM
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Niedermayer at 15th caught my eye.

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02-24-2012, 12:57 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
Niedermayer at 15th caught my eye.
Funny thing is that that while that's very high by history board standards, that's probably about where the mainstream hockey media would rank him.

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02-24-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Funny thing is that that while that's very high by history board standards, that's probably about where the mainstream hockey media would rank him.
Probably a bit low, actually. I've seen tweets from Pierre LeBrun suggesting he could be top five.

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02-24-2012, 01:17 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
Probably a bit low, actually. I've seen tweets from Pierre LeBrun suggesting he could be top five.
If you think I'm hard on Lidstrom, get me started on ranking Niedermayer anywhere close to the top-10.

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02-24-2012, 01:26 PM
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A lot of very questionable ranking/choices in this list...

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02-24-2012, 01:57 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Ruotsalainen would have made for an interesting discussion.
no - not really. The guy was a specialist who never played more than 22.1 minutes per game in a season. Bryan McCabe averaged more than that for 1100+ games.

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02-24-2012, 02:12 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
no - not really. The guy was a specialist who never played more than 22.1 minutes per game in a season. Bryan McCabe averaged more than that for 1100+ games.
He did leave North America after the age of 26, played one season at 29, then left again. So any case for him would have to be based off what he did in Finland. I agree that his North American career isn't close to top 80 (not a single vote for the Norris for one).

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02-24-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
no - not really. The guy was a specialist who never played more than 22.1 minutes per game in a season. Bryan McCabe averaged more than that for 1100+ games.
Not saying he would have made the list... just that he would have made for an interesting discussion

Tiny defenseman (5'8") who put up some very impressive offensive stats in 5 seasons with the Rangers, then split for Europe. His NHL career after that was not significant to the discussion (cameos at forward). Played a lot in Europe and is legendary in Finnish hockey.

The inimitable Joe Pelletier says:

Quote:
I always felt that if he was placed in the right situation, he could have been one of the top 3 defenseman of his time.
...
Paul Coffey was Ruotsalainen's most comparable peer. Like Coffey, Rexi's skating ability was simply phenomenal. He had an incredible set of wheels, blessed with great speed and the ability to get into gear within a step. And he skated backwards and laterally equally as well, perhaps even better than Coffey. In fact he could skate better in reverse than most forwards could skate forward! He effortlessly drifted across the ice as the opposition skaters strained to keep up. It was nothing short of beautiful, and perhaps only equaled by a Scott Niedermayer or a Katerina Witt!
Ruotsalainen caused the creation of the waiver rule when he signed with Edmonton to bolster their Cup runs on two different occasions.

I have no illusion that he would have been on our final list, I just think he's an interesting character.

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02-24-2012, 02:56 PM
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JaysCyYoung
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I'll be honest: I lacked the comprehensive knowledge of the early period of hockey compared to some of the really knowledgeable hockey history experts on here and it ultimately detracted from the overall quality of my original list. It also led to the over-emphasis on modern period defencemen that you see above. If I had to do it over again I would have doubtless included the likes of Ott Heller, Lester Patrick, Harvey Pulford, and improved the rankings of Clancy and Cleghorn.

Also included would have been Suchy and Popsisil since it looks like there was a disservice done to the two great all-time Czech defenders.

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02-24-2012, 03:09 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Not saying he would have made the list... just that he would have made for an interesting discussion

Tiny defenseman (5'8") who put up some very impressive offensive stats in 5 seasons with the Rangers, then split for Europe. His NHL career after that was not significant to the discussion (cameos at forward). Played a lot in Europe and is legendary in Finnish hockey.

The inimitable Joe Pelletier says:



Ruotsalainen caused the creation of the waiver rule when he signed with Edmonton to bolster their Cup runs on two different occasions.

I have no illusion that he would have been on our final list, I just think he's an interesting character.

Yes, he is interesting. I remember in those 1987 Stan Fischler ratings I posted a couple years ago, he was the only defensemen who they rated close to Coffey in skating (I think) and a few other offense and puck-related skills - but the other parts of his game were lacking.

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02-24-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
no - not really. The guy was a specialist who never played more than 22.1 minutes per game in a season. Bryan McCabe averaged more than that for 1100+ games.
Where can I find the icetimes for Ruotsalainen's seasons, or for each season in the 1980s? I didn't even know they existed. You list it with one decimal. Does that mean the total icetimes for those seasons are as accurate as within 0.1 * 80 = 8 minutes?

(Now you seventieslord have another chance to point out how useless, ignorant, etc I am... A stat guy who does not even know where to find the info I ask for.)

Edit: I know there are estimated icetimes floating around, and that one of them list "22.154" for Ruotsalainen's highest estimated season. But you claim to have found factual/official ones.


Last edited by plusandminus: 02-24-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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02-24-2012, 04:28 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Where can I find the icetimes for Ruotsalainen's seasons, or for each season in the 1980s? I didn't even know they existed. You list it with one decimal. Does that mean the total icetimes for those seasons are as accurate as within 0.1 * 80 = 8 minutes?

(Now you seventieslord have another chance to point out how useless, ignorant, etc I am... A stat guy who does not even know where to find the info I ask for.)

Edit: I know there are estimated icetimes floating around, and that one of them list "22.154" for Ruotsalainen's highest estimated season. But you claim to have found factual/official ones.
Christ, enough with the inferiority complex. be happy that I at least answered your last tirade honestly. Most people just ignored it - like you say they always do.

I never claimed to find "factual/official" ice times. any time someone is quoting icetime figures from before 1998, they are from the TOI file that is going around. It was put together by someone about 5 years ago on the hockhist or hag_list on yahoogroups and Iain Fyffe has said that when tested against actual results in seasons where the TOI is known, it has a correllation of 96%. I trust these results probably 90% as much as official, post-1998 stats, and I believe they are the best we'll ever have.

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02-24-2012, 04:58 PM
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The problem with Rexi is that he played quite a bit on the RW.

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02-24-2012, 05:28 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Ruotsalainen would have made for an interesting discussion.
Is it true that he was Risto Siltanen's identical twin cousin?

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02-24-2012, 05:30 PM
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seventieslord
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The problem with Rexi is that he played quite a bit on the RW.
On one hand, it makes his point totals less impressive.

On the other hand, it explains his rather low icetime for a player regarded as highly as he typically is (for example, if he is said to have averaged 20 minutes, it could be that he was a 24 minute defenseman for half the year and a 16 minute forward for half the year.

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