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Sports Illustrated Says: No Rebuild, Just a New GM + Retool

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Old
02-24-2012, 03:51 PM
  #26
Em Ancien
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René Bourque provides energy



What a clown.

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02-24-2012, 04:14 PM
  #27
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Disagree.

The Habs are beyond a retool. The rebuild has been a long time coming.

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02-24-2012, 04:28 PM
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Disagree.

The Habs are beyond a retool. The rebuild has been a long time coming.
I agree. But it's not going to happen.

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Old
02-24-2012, 04:31 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Honestly I think Gauthier is doing a heck of a job, pretty much every move has been a win, and a one year tank is exactly what we need to acquire that one elite forward that has been eluding us. The on ice results are obviously disappointing, but thats not the GMs responsibility. Not sold on RC though.
Rene Bourque ain't no 'win'

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02-24-2012, 05:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Here's the paradox: If you hire an "astute GM" do you really think he's going to put his reputation on the line in the oldest, most prestigious hockey franchise in the world by coming in here, adding and subtracting a few minor pieces and see what happens.

You can probably get someone like McGuire to shuffle around a few chairs under the direction of Gainey, Martin and Gauthier but I think you'd have a tough time getting a top GM candidate who's willing to do that.
You are way underselling the Montreal Canadiens franchise.

You may look at the GM job in Montreal as being "too hard". Good. You would not make good management material with that attitude. However, there are enough potential GM candidates who would kill to have this job. The only thing holding them back is Molson. All Geoff has to do is pull the trigger on Gauthier. There will be a LOT of interest in the Habs GM job.

Can anyone send this article to Geoff in case he is failing to come to the same realization as the author?

Edit.....The city of Montreal is not the circus. Gauthier is the circus. Dont lose sight of that.

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02-24-2012, 05:38 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by HotPie View Post
Disagree.

The Habs are beyond a retool. The rebuild has been a long time coming.
Depends on your definition of retool or rebuild. Rebuild for me is stripping down the team entirely and keeping maybe 1 franchise like player, if even. Retool is keeping a modifying elements to the team. For instance, I consider keeping Eller, Pacioretty, Price, Subban and Gorges a sign of a retool not rebuild.

In any case, if I were GM I would do a big retool right about now or next year. Our top players in each position are young, we have a top 5 pick coming up and it seems like if we fail to be competitive next year, a massive retool for picks, prospects, NHL ready young players, etc...would go a long way because by the time the majority are ready, the same few top players we have will be in their prime, and they will be surrounded by young cheap talent.

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02-24-2012, 05:49 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post

Edit.....The city of Montreal is not the circus. Gauthier is the circus. Dont lose sight of that.
Just because you keep repeating this, doesn't make it true...

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Old
02-24-2012, 07:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Honestly I think Gauthier is doing a heck of a job, pretty much every move has been a win, and a one year tank is exactly what we need to acquire that one elite forward that has been eluding us. The on ice results are obviously disappointing, but thats not the GMs responsibility. Not sold on RC though.
While the moves may be ok, the message and the leadership is not. The GM needs to not only make good moves but provide level headed leadership. He has not provided this. The organization is in dissarray and the responsibility lies at his feet. The coaching fiasco aside, he's made no moves that show me he's got a vision for the team. We got bigger with Bourque, but the work ethic remained the same. We got worse IMO with Kaberle, and he seems lost at the best of times. Picking up prospects is one thing (Geoffrion is a good move), but he's a long way from proving himself.

I want a GM who will have an overall vision for the makeup of the team. At least when BG blew it up he had a theme. Leaders who'd won cups. This almost paid off 2 years ago. PG has spent all of his time picking up spare parts that don't have a unifying theme. Successful teams buy into a plan. We don't have one at the moment, and I don't see PG ever having one.

If we're the flying frenchmen, then lets do it (maybe not all french though). You don't have to be soft to be quick. No one seems to mess with Cole and he's damn fast.

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02-24-2012, 07:18 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by HotPie View Post
Disagree.

The Habs are beyond a retool. The rebuild has been a long time coming.
Do you know what a rebuild is? Starting from scratch, meaning you have a fire sale for draft picks on the core of the team. Our core includes Price, Subban, Gorges, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Cole, and Desharnais. The rebuild is not necessary as the Habs already have talented youth in place at all positions. The Habs have the youngest defence in the league. Rebuilding implies youth. The Habs have youth. What the Habs need is a retool meaning unloading deadweight or washed up overpaid vets and acquire through trade or free agency younger, cheaper, more talented replacements. With Gill and Cammalleri gone already the Habs can become much better by ridding themselves of Gomez and Kaberle. Get rid of those two contracts anyway you can and use the money to acquire the right pieces the habs need. If Montreal can acquire draft picks as well as NHL ready players (Hal Gill transaction) that would be ideal.

The habs can become a very good team as soon as next season.

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02-24-2012, 07:36 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
Just because you keep repeating this, doesn't make it true...
When did the city of Montreal become a circus? There was a media presence during all of those Cup wins (unless the city of Montreal discovered newspapers and radio/TV just recently )

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02-24-2012, 07:52 PM
  #36
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Sorry, guys, but this is not a troll or anything to stir things up. It's just one opinion albeit mine. I really believe that the Habs franchise and Molson is like the Leafs in one respect. I really don't think that a full tank or full house cleaning is coming. They don't want to miss the playoff receipts. Even if they miss the playoffs, a tune-up or 're-tool' as they call it now, is probably enough to gain 8th spot.

More and more teams don't want to tank and instead decide that a few major shuffles is enough to improve the team 'practically overnight.' Look at NJ and Ottawa. Also, unless you can get picks in the top 1-4, in the first round, there is no guarantee that you'll turn it around immediately from a good draft. But, the Canadiens might be sellers at some point but mostly for prospects and picks. That's my guess, though.

I'm in the camp who thinks the draft is very important and it's only bad judgment or bad drafting that screws up good opportunities if you have good draft position. It doesn't mean a tank is not a good option. It can be. But, Molson and co. probably don't want to go that route because it almost always means a major player movement of several in and several out, developing prospects and waiting for draft picks to be ready for the NHL.

The GM appears like he's made a lot of questional decisions such as the Kaberle acquisition. It'll be difficult to justify bringing him back no matter what route they go. Nothing short of a playoff spot even if it's the very last one should give him another opportunity.

My two cents.

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02-24-2012, 07:54 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
I want a GM who will have an overall vision for the makeup of the team. At least when BG blew it up he had a theme. Leaders who'd won cups. This almost paid off 2 years ago. PG has spent all of his time picking up spare parts that don't have a unifying theme. Successful teams buy into a plan. We don't have one at the moment, and I don't see PG ever having one.
Asset management has been the downfall of our franchise for years. From Patrick Roy to now, how many times have we clearly won a trade? Garon for Huet and Bonk? Rivet for Gorges + Patches? That's pretty much it. In 20 ****ing years. How many draft picks have we wasted? Drafted or traded for "Over-the-hillers"? How many young players have we lost in that time, only to do better elsewhere? Is it the management that's toxic or the city itself? Before Price and Subban it seemed "young and talented"(especially local) was recipe for disaster. As for managers, shouldn't the talent be lining up out the door to work here? Why are we always left with the former assistants(either ours or theirs)?

Molson should be looking for the best of the best(GM & Coach), with the second best of the best, as assistant(Gm & Coach)s. We've got two things clearly working against us. History and language. It's a reality and relevant, but true.

Today, with the 30 teams, the spreading of talent, the lack of french talent, today's media, and local owner with actual money to lose in their real jobs(beer sales), it really hampers our freedom to just go out and get the best of the best talent. Whether it be managers or players.

Personally, I hope this isn't the case from now on, but it's hard not to be skeptical. We have a heavier-than-usual monkey on our back, that won't go away, than at least 28 other clubs. Right now, chances at a cup being 1 in 30 are bad enough. Do we really have to put up with all this other crap?

I want Molson to say "**** it", drown out the outside influences and just go for it. Does anyone else feel they'll do that?

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02-24-2012, 07:54 PM
  #38
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Sorry, guys, but this is not a troll or anything to stir things up. It's just one opinion albeit mine. I really believe that the Habs franchise and Molson is like the Leafs in one respect. I really don't think that a full tank or full house cleaning is coming. They don't want to miss the playoff receipts. Even if they miss the playoffs, a tune-up or 're-tool' as they call it now, is probably enough to gain 8th spot.

More and more teams don't want to tank and instead decide that a few major shuffles is enough to improve the team 'practically overnight.' Look at NJ and Ottawa. Also, unless you can get picks in the top 1-4, in the first round, there is no guarantee that you'll turn it around immediately from a good draft. But, the Canadiens might be sellers at some point but mostly for prospects and picks. That's my guess, though.

I'm in the camp who thinks the draft is very important and it's only bad judgment or bad drafting that screws up good opportunities if you have good draft position. It doesn't mean a tank is not a good option. It can be. But, Molson and co. probably don't want to go that route because it almost always means a major player movement of several in and several out, developing prospects and waiting for draft picks to be ready for the NHL.

The GM appears like he's made a lot of questional decisions such as the Kaberle acquisition. It'll be difficult to justify bringing him back no matter what route they go. Nothing short of a playoff spot even if it's the very last one should give him another opportunity.

My two cents.
The Gauthier fans hate you already for even mentioning the "Kaberle acquisition" being questionable.

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Old
02-24-2012, 07:58 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
Asset management has been the downfall of our franchise for years. From Patrick Roy to now, how many times have we clearly won a trade? Garon for Huet and Bonk? Rivet for Gorges + Patches? That's pretty much it. In 20 ****ing years. How many draft picks have we wasted? Drafted or traded for "Over-the-hillers"? How many young players have we lost in that time, only to do better elsewhere? Is it the management that's toxic or the city itself? Before Price and Subban it seemed "young and talented"(especially local) was recipe for disaster. As for managers, shouldn't the talent be lining up out the door to work here? Why are we always left with the former assistants(either ours or theirs)?

Molson should be looking for the best of the best(GM & Coach), with the second, best of the best as assistant(Gm & Coach)s. We've got two things clearly working against us. History and language. It's a reality and relevant, but true.

Today, with the 30 teams, the spreading of talent, the lack of french talent, today's media, and local owner with actual money to lose in their real jobs(beer sales), it really hampers our freedom to just go out and get the best of the best talent. Whether it be managers or players.

Personally, I hope this isn't the case from now on, but it's hard not to be skeptical. We have a heavier-than-usual monkey on our back, that won't go away, than at least 28 other clubs. Right now, chances at a cup being 1 in 30 are bad enough. Do we really have to put up with all this other crap?

I want Molson to say "**** it", drown out the outside influences and just go for it. Does anyone else feel they'll do that?
As a poster mentioned earlier, you are a spoiled and entitled Canadiens fan. How dare you want more than winning the Rivet trade?

In all seriousness, great post!!! We have been mediocre so long that a certain segment of Canadiens fans do not expect anything else because they have not seen anything else. This is a crossroads for Geoff Molson. Either he can move the franchise in a new direction or he can continue down the path of mediocrity, making the playoffs on occasion only to be guaranteed of an early exit.

The offseason will be huge as we will know which path Molson has chosen.

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Old
02-24-2012, 08:06 PM
  #40
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They need a plan. A strategy that is thought out and that makes sense. So far, I don't think there is one. Many Canadiens fans don't see a decent plan and I bet most fans of other teams would take a look and agree.

I didn't know there were 'Gauthier fans' but how can one justify bringing Kaberle on board? He was struggling like Gomez has this season but that was way back when he was acquired by Boston. Even a bunch of Leaf fans were pointing out his deficiencies. He might be a nice guy and maybe he shoots more and still has some skills. But, he's been sent around to other teams and they've ultimately been unsatisfied. It just causes more problems for the cap and contracts if it continues. It was too much of a risk.

It's these decisions that really screw you up if you keep making them. There's lots of ammo to fire at Gauthier so trying to defend him seems to be a waste of time, imho. Looking at another strategy and going for new personnel seems to be a better plan.

I would reserve judgment for RC as he just took over mid-season. But, I read on here he has made questionable decisions regarding lines and players he's put out, too. Maybe a total revamping of management/coaching is needed to start fresh?

No one knows if they're a better team than what you are getting because Gauthier keeps making moves that make little sense?

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02-24-2012, 08:10 PM
  #41
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They need a plan. A strategy that is thought out and that makes sense. So far, I don't think there is one. Many Canadiens fans don't see a decent plan and I bet most fans of other teams would take a look and agree.

I didn't know there were 'Gauthier fans' but how can one justify bringing Kaberle on board? He was struggling like Gomez has this season but that was way back when he was acquired by Boston. Even a bunch of Leaf fans were pointing out his deficiencies. He might be a nice guy and maybe he shoots more and still has some skills. But, he's been sent around to other teams and they've ultimately been unsatisfied. It just causes more problems for the cap and contracts if it continues. It was too much of a risk.

It's these decisions that really screw you up if you keep making them. There's lots of ammo to fire at Gauthier so trying to defend him seems to be a waste of time, imho. Looking at another strategy and going for new personnel seems to be a better plan.

I would reserve judgment for RC as he just took over mid-season. But, I read on here he has made questionable decisions regarding lines and players he's put out, too. Maybe a total revamping of management/coaching is needed to start fresh?

No one knows if they're a better team than what you are getting because Gauthier keeps making moves that make little sense?
Yes, we have a pretty large contingent of Gauthier "fans" here on this board. He can do no wrong and they think that he is doing a great job here in Montreal. There are a million excuses offered as to why we are last in the East but none of them point at Gauthier.

Its rather odd.....

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02-24-2012, 08:20 PM
  #42
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When did the city of Montreal become a circus? There was a media presence during all of those Cup wins (unless the city of Montreal discovered newspapers and radio/TV just recently )
You answered your own question: it has been like that pretty much since the last cup win. Look at every single GM, every single coach we had since them, and they were all run out of town, every single time, for supposedly sucking horribly. Many of these coaches have left us to win the cup elsewhere, or coach great teams. The only common denominator are the fans and the city, who have unrealistic expectations coming from a time long gone and won't come back.

Just look at how some people keep complaining about the habs last decade and criticising this period as a block - missing the obvious fact that the entire management team and ownerships have shifted many times during this period, making any kind of analysis at this scale completely pointless. People don't care - the whining is general, universal, and constant - a circus. It has nothing do to with Gauthier, who amusingly is probably the best GM we had for years. No, it's all about the sense of entitlement. A cup win would certainly calm it... but then, only for a while.

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02-24-2012, 08:22 PM
  #43
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What we need is a young assistant GM who has a fresh approach to the game. Who understands the new facets and what it takes to win. A real visionary.

Our new GM needs to be someone who is stoic. Does not get influenced by the politics and the pressure of the city. Someone who can stand stone-faced in the throng of reporters who are trying to make stories out of nothing; call them out for what they are and run the operation the way the organization dictates it should be. Not through what the public pressure is.
Someone on l'Antichambre mentioned the Blackhawks' current assistant GM

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02-24-2012, 08:38 PM
  #44
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You answered your own question: it has been like that pretty much since the last cup win. Look at every single GM, every single coach we had since them, and they were all run out of town, every single time, for supposedly sucking horribly. Many of these coaches have left us to win the cup elsewhere, or coach great teams. The only common denominator are the fans and the city, who have unrealistic expectations coming from a time long gone and won't come back.

Just look at how some people keep complaining about the habs last decade and criticising this period as a block - missing the obvious fact that the entire management team and ownerships have shifted many times during this period, making any kind of analysis at this scale completely pointless. People don't care - the whining is general, universal, and constant - a circus. It has nothing do to with Gauthier, who amusingly is probably the best GM we had for years. No, it's all about the sense of entitlement. A cup win would certainly calm it... but then, only for a while.
So the last Stanley Cup win caused a circus? 22 Cups could not do it but the 23rd did?

That makes no sense.

Our failures are a reflection of the Pierre Boivin era in Montreal. You complain about the coaching changes. Boivin was in charge then. Boivin gave us Gainey. Boivin approved of Gauthier. Boivin was the first president who thought it was more important to merchandise the brand than win on the ice.

We will be the same struggling franchise until every single remnant of the Pierre Boivin era is removed and erased from this organization. But..........we have Patrick Boivin as the director of hockey operations.......compliments of Pierre Gauthier as a favor to his old boss.

Molson must clean house and rid us of the inbred Boivin failure in Montreal.

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02-24-2012, 08:39 PM
  #45
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You answered your own question: it has been like that pretty much since the last cup win. Look at every single GM, every single coach we had since them, and they were all run out of town, every single time, for supposedly sucking horribly. Many of these coaches have left us to win the cup elsewhere, or coach great teams. The only common denominator are the fans and the city, who have unrealistic expectations coming from a time long gone and won't come back.

Just look at how some people keep complaining about the habs last decade and criticising this period as a block - missing the obvious fact that the entire management team and ownerships have shifted many times during this period, making any kind of analysis at this scale completely pointless. People don't care - the whining is general, universal, and constant - a circus. It has nothing do to with Gauthier, who amusingly is probably the best GM we had for years. No, it's all about the sense of entitlement. A cup win would certainly calm it... but then, only for a while.
This is such a load of crap... please don't lay this on the fans and say that it's unrealistic expectations.

How the hell is it unrealistic to expect the team to try to build at least a contending team at some point over the last 15 freaking years? And yes, it's been different managers but it's always been the same pattern... quick fixes. We don't ever take the patient route and DRAFT our way to a winning team. We don't deal away vets for prospects and we never draft high.

It is NOT the fans fault that we have had crappy teams. It is NOT the fans fault that we go through coaches like a kid with the runs goes through underwear. It is the fault of the management teams that we've had over the years. We flat out haven't had good players and it's killed us. We've watched as expansion teams who didn't even exist like Carolina, the Ducks and Tampa have gone out and won cups. We've watched as basement teams have drafted stars and leapfrogged us. We've sat there waiting for a decent first line center to come and it's never happened.

You can blame the fans all you want but it's not the fans' fault that Brian Savage doesn't turn into Brendan Shanahan. We keep drafting mid round guys and then wonder why they aren't stars. Not a single top ten scorer in a quarter century... pathetic!

It just makes me laugh when I hear crap like "our fans have a feeling of entitlement" that's just such a load... The club hasn't even been competitive man. We had one fluke season and that's it. And what's worse is that it's STILL going on now. If anything, the fans have been extremely patient with the crap that we've had to put up with over the years. What we've seen is unacceptable. So please point that finger in the direction of management because that's where it belongs.

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02-24-2012, 09:03 PM
  #46
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So the last Stanley Cup win caused a circus? 22 Cups could not do it but the 23rd did?

That makes no sense.
No: Absence of competitive team and cup wins have created the circus.

Quote:
Our failures are a reflection of the Pierre Boivin era in Montreal. You complain about the coaching changes. Boivin was in charge then. Boivin gave us Gainey. Boivin approved of Gauthier. Boivin was the first president who thought it was more important to merchandise the brand than win on the ice.

We will be the same struggling franchise until every single remnant of the Pierre Boivin era is removed and erased from this organization. But..........we have Patrick Boivin as the director of hockey operations.......compliments of Pierre Gauthier as a favor to his old boss.

Molson must clean house and rid us of the inbred Boivin failure in Montreal.
Congratulation, you indeed found someone who has been there pretty much there the entire time. Suck that it wasn't in a hockey position. You can harp about him hiring all these people but that's pretty weak, considering the habs hiring are rarely out of the left field: either they are seasoned vets (Gainey, Gauthier, Martin) or rookies (all our coaches prior to Martin) who ended up performing very well elsewhere. For some reason, it's only in Montreal that all these people have "failed". Doesn't seam like a hiring problem to me.

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02-24-2012, 09:14 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Honestly I think Gauthier is doing a heck of a job, pretty much every move has been a win, and a one year tank is exactly what we need to acquire that one elite forward that has been eluding us. The on ice results are obviously disappointing, but thats not the GMs responsibility. Not sold on RC though.
What are you smoking dude????

Are you even watching how Kaberle is single handedly getting us a top 3 pick!!!

How is that Campoli acquisition working out?

What about Gomez (you'd be wrong if you'd think Gauthier had no say int that mess)

Dude were in Last place .... What are you taking about!!!!!

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02-24-2012, 09:18 PM
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This is such a load of crap... please don't lay this on the fans and say that it's unrealistic expectations.

How the hell is it unrealistic to expect the team to try to build at least a contending team at some point over the last 15 freaking years? And yes, it's been different managers but it's always been the same pattern... quick fixes. We don't ever take the patient route and DRAFT our way to a winning team. We don't deal away vets for prospects and we never draft high.
Your entire "quick fixes" argument (and not only here, but on many posts on this board) regarding how the habs should rebuild throught high draft picks resides on the assumption that it is possible for a habs GM to get such a mandate from ownsership. But it is not. As much as you'll try to waive it away, businessmen don't think like you think they think. Ownsership won't ever risk the value of the team on such a risky strategy, unless the team's value was already very low, which isn't the case for the habs. There'll always be "quick fixes", because the team must try hard to make the playoffs every year, because fans don't buy as many **** and don't watch as many games if the team doesn't. It has nothing to do with management being mediocre or not: they are just working on assumptions different then yours.

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02-24-2012, 09:26 PM
  #49
hockeyfan2k11
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How do you look at a team in last place and say the GM has done a good job? The Gauthier fanboys are unreal.

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02-24-2012, 09:32 PM
  #50
Frozenice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Your entire "quick fixes" argument (and not only here, but on many posts on this board) regarding how the habs should rebuild throught high draft picks resides on the assumption that it is possible for a habs GM to get such a mandate from ownsership. But it is not. As much as you'll try to waive it away, businessmen don't think like you think they think. Ownsership won't ever risk the value of the team on such a risky strategy, unless the team's value was already very low, which isn't the case for the habs. There'll always be "quick fixes", because the team must try hard to make the playoffs every year, because fans don't buy as many **** and don't watch as many games if the team doesn't. It has nothing to do with management being mediocre or not: they are just working on assumptions different then yours.
Maybe, when the Molson's bought the team their first order of business was to retire some debt and financial obligations before they could take on a risky strategy like doing a proper rebuild.

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