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Nash Rumors VII: This Could Get Nash-ty (*************** is NOT a legitimate source)

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:35 PM
  #51
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
He's clearly a floater.

He plays no defense. It's not like he backchecked hard and took the pick from Callahan the other day.

Point is people make comments without even watching the player.
No better is the person who cherrypicks one play and pretends that's an accurate representation of the guy's entire game.

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02-24-2012, 09:35 PM
  #52
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Holy crap people where are pulling this "mortgage the future" from? Sather has stated through Brooks he's not dealing McD, MDZ, Stepan, Kreider, or Miller.

Dubinsky, Thomas, McI, and a 1st is hardly mortgaging the future.
Mortgage future CAP SPACE.

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02-24-2012, 09:37 PM
  #53
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I get, and somewhat agree, with what you're getting at with this. But it does beg the question: how much of the team that actually won the Cup was homegrown?

Think of trading a seemingly stalled Dubinsky in the deal for Nash the same way you might think of trading a seemingly stalled Turcotte in the deal for Larmer

Honestly, if the Rangers don't get Nash, I'm fine. If they get him for Dubinsky, McIlrath, Thomas, 1st, I'm fine. If they get him for more than that, I'm pissed.
This team, at its best, is a poor man's version of that team. We don't have a Leetch. We don't have a Messier. We don't have a Graves. They make up for that with chemistry that only comes with coming up through the system together.

As I said in the other thread, though, I'm not opposed to making ANY trade, or even to trading Dubinsky. I'm opposed to trading for Nash. The only reason to trade for Nash is if we think it will get us to the Cup this season. While I hope that happens, Nash or no Nash, I just don't think this is our year. You know what that 1994 team had in buckets? Playoff experience. And they still had to battle all the way to that Cup. This team doesn't have that. NONE of our defenders (Lundqvist included) have been past the 2nd round of the playoffs. Aside from Staal and Girardi, the only one to even see a single playoff game is McD (5 total games).

It doesn't get much better on offense. Richards and Gabby have gone deep in the playoffs, but beyond that? Cally has never played a post-season game as a key player. Anisimov only has a handful of playoff games, none past the first round. Same with Stepan. The only four offensive players to have a single game past the second round are Gaborik, Richards, Rupp and Fedotenko.

This team is in serious need of post-season experience. Nash and his career 4 playoff games doesn't help with that glaring weakness. While I'd obviously be thrilled to see the team win it all this season, I think it's more likely that they make a deep run, even further solidifying their chemistry, and then have their best shot at an actual Cup in the next couple of seasons.

Rather than spending assets and cap on Nash, I'd prefer to see them get someone in the offseason (either through FA or trade) at a better cap number, who has postseason experience and (most importantly) fits the way this team plays hockey. Nash is none of those things.

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02-24-2012, 09:39 PM
  #54
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Im not calling him any of that, but are you seriously basing a guy's skills off one game, specifically one play?
No I'm saying people assume they know about his game. People assume that because he's a superstar that he doesn't play any defense. I'm trying to make the point that you can't judge how he is until you've seen him play enough to actually make a decision for yourselves. The point is that people assume that they know how he plays because he makes a lot of money and that and is called a superstar but they've never really seen him play and they assume that he only floats and he cant play any defense but until people have seen him play more than 15 games you can't really make a decision about what type of player he is and you can't assume that he's a floater.

It's just too many people make judgments about him without having watched him play enough.

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02-24-2012, 09:40 PM
  #55
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Throughout the last 5 games, we've scored 11 goals. 3 have been from D-men (2 by Staal, 1 by McD) and the other 8 have been from the top two lines. So if you don't think we need scoring depth, then I don't know what to tell you man. I know its a small sample size, but just look at the 3rd line: 14 goals between Dubi/Prust/Boyle. Atrocious.
Not wanting Nash is not the same as not wanting more scoring. I'd love to see the team get a rental for their 1st and a middling prospect. I just don't see Nash as an intelligent move in the short term or the long term.

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02-24-2012, 09:40 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Mortgage future CAP SPACE.
Are you, or anyone on this board, employed by a NHL team as a cap specialist? Do you not think that the Rangers have several people crunching the numbers at what could happen if different scenario's unfold with the new CBA and contracts that players could potentially get when they become RFA's?

Do you or anyone on this board have a crystal ball as to have is going to happen TWO summers from now?

Sather has done a good job with the rest of his staff building and developing players in this organization. He has not made a bad trade at all to the best of my knowledge. I think he's earned the respect where we as fans can just accept what he does here because it's in the best interest of this team.

And even if the dooms day scenario unfolds in two summers that the Rangers can't re-sign one of McD or Stepan, what if the Rangers win the cup this year and next before that happens.

Would it be worth it then? Who in their right minds would rather worry about re-signing a player two years from now instead of winning two cups? That is what adding Nash does to this team. It makes them serious favorites to go deep in the playoffs and win the cup.

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02-24-2012, 09:41 PM
  #57
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i figured there were a few of us lurking among the HF population
HA Yes. I'm sure there are more of us. I train w/ Marcelo.

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02-24-2012, 09:43 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Are you, or anyone on this board, employed by a NHL team as a cap specialist? Do you not think that the Rangers have several people crunching the numbers at what could happen if different scenario's unfold with the new CBA and contracts that players could potentially get when they become RFA's?

Do you or anyone on this board have a crystal ball as to have is going to happen TWO summers from now?

Sather has done a good job with the rest of his staff building and developing players in this organization. He has not made a bad trade at all to the best of my knowledge. I think he's earned the respect where we as fans can just accept what he does here because it's in the best interest of this team.

And even if the dooms day scenario unfolds in two summers that the Rangers can't re-sign one of McD or Stepan, what if the Rangers win the cup this year and next before that happens.

Would it be worth it then? Who in their right minds would rather worry about re-signing a player two years from now instead of winning two cups? That is what adding Nash does to this team. It makes them serious favorites to go deep in the playoffs and win the cup.
ding ding ding ding

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:43 PM
  #59
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This is a bad hockey team man.

We need Rick "Superstar" Nash to come here and save the day and carry this team to a Stanley Cup.
Rick "Superstar" Nash and Brad "Broadway" Richards will save the day.

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:44 PM
  #60
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No but I imagine NY RKY feels the need to emphasis these things because the anti-Nash group doesn't want to drop it no matter how many times it's addressed.
That is exactly my point.

If Sather and Co have targeted him then that means he's a player they believe is capable of being a good two way forward and that he's capable of fitting into the mold that were trying to make all our forwards into. If they thought that he'd be a bad fit than they wouldn't be interested in him. They clearly have scouted him and they understand that he will do what is necessary to help this team win.

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02-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
That is exactly my point.

If Sather and Co have targeted him then that means he's a player they believe is capable of being a good two way forward and that he's capable of fitting into the mold that were trying to make all our forwards into. If they thought that he'd be a bad fit than they wouldn't be interested in him. They clearly have scouted him and they understand that he will do what is necessary to help this team win.
There's also a reason they haven't come to a deal yet. They don't think he's worth it right now.

And there are degrees of all this stuff. It's not black and white. When a player is a floater it doesn't mean he never comes back on D. When you're a defensive forward it doesn't mean you never move up ice.

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02-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
That is exactly my point.

If Sather and Co have targeted him then that means he's a player they believe is capable of being a good two way forward and that he's capable of fitting into the mold that were trying to make all our forwards into. If they thought that he'd be a bad fit than they wouldn't be interested in him. They clearly have scouted him and they understand that he will do what is necessary to help this team win.
Because a GM never makes mistakes, right?

I can count many in particular to Sather.

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #63
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No but I imagine NY RKY feels the need to emphasis these things because the anti-Nash group doesn't want to drop it no matter how many times it's addressed.
As the guy who keeps calling Nash a floater, I don't see how that game or that highlight does ANYTHING to disprove my point. He floats. He plays hard when HE wants to. I see him play a dozen + times per year. When he's interested, he puts forth all the effort in the world. My point is that he's NOT interested in doing that more often than not. Frankly, the fact that Nash blocking a shot made a highlight reel is kind of pitiful. You could make ten highlight reels out of nothing but blocked shots by this Rangers team. On the Rangers, blocking a shot is an expectation, not a "highlight."

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02-24-2012, 09:48 PM
  #64
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NHL Network says GM Howson wants the most he could possibly get out of the deal and that he's not quick to deal Nash.

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:51 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Are you, or anyone on this board, employed by a NHL team as a cap specialist? Do you not think that the Rangers have several people crunching the numbers at what could happen if different scenario's unfold with the new CBA and contracts that players could potentially get when they become RFA's?

Do you or anyone on this board have a crystal ball as to have is going to happen TWO summers from now?

Sather has done a good job with the rest of his staff building and developing players in this organization. He has not made a bad trade at all to the best of my knowledge. I think he's earned the respect where we as fans can just accept what he does here because it's in the best interest of this team.

And even if the dooms day scenario unfolds in two summers that the Rangers can't re-sign one of McD or Stepan, what if the Rangers win the cup this year and next before that happens.

Would it be worth it then? Who in their right minds would rather worry about re-signing a player two years from now instead of winning two cups? That is what adding Nash does to this team. It makes them serious favorites to go deep in the playoffs and win the cup.
See, this is the problem.

I don't think Nash brings us a Cup or is worth close to his contract. 7.8 mill is Malkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, Stamkos money. He's not close to those guys offensively. And the whole "he's just playing on a bad team" is an excuse. Im going by his production right now, which is a 65 point player. If he's traded here, he better be putting up 80+ points to justify that contract.

And just going to say this, im not going to be like one of those people who does actually like a player to fail to prove they were right. If Nash is traded here im going to root for him and obviously hope we win the Cup. If he produces..I will be happy to eat a massive pile of crow. But, if he doesn't i'll be bashing this guy and Sather until the cows come home.

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02-24-2012, 09:52 PM
  #66
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This team, at its best, is a poor man's version of that team. We don't have a Leetch. We don't have a Messier. We don't have a Graves. They make up for that with chemistry that only comes with coming up through the system together.

As I said in the other thread, though, I'm not opposed to making ANY trade, or even to trading Dubinsky. I'm opposed to trading for Nash. The only reason to trade for Nash is if we think it will get us to the Cup this season. While I hope that happens, Nash or no Nash, I just don't think this is our year. You know what that 1994 team had in buckets? Playoff experience. And they still had to battle all the way to that Cup. This team doesn't have that. NONE of our defenders (Lundqvist included) have been past the 2nd round of the playoffs. Aside from Staal and Girardi, the only one to even see a single playoff game is McD (5 total games).

It doesn't get much better on offense. Richards and Gabby have gone deep in the playoffs, but beyond that? Cally has never played a post-season game as a key player. Anisimov only has a handful of playoff games, none past the first round. Same with Stepan. The only four offensive players to have a single game past the second round are Gaborik, Richards, Rupp and Fedotenko.

This team is in serious need of post-season experience. Nash and his career 4 playoff games doesn't help with that glaring weakness. While I'd obviously be thrilled to see the team win it all this season, I think it's more likely that they make a deep run, even further solidifying their chemistry, and then have their best shot at an actual Cup in the next couple of seasons.

Rather than spending assets and cap on Nash, I'd prefer to see them get someone in the offseason (either through FA or trade) at a better cap number, who has postseason experience and (most importantly) fits the way this team plays hockey. Nash is none of those things.
I think this madness needs to stop.

Stop comparing this team, and every Rangers team in the future to the 94 cup team. Of course we don't have a Messier. There are no Messiers in the league!

Not only was that in the pre-salary-cap-era, but it was during the clutch and grab NHL where two line passes were illegal. Its a completely different game and it takes completely different attributes to win.

If you want to make comparisons, compare this team to recent Cup winners, in the post-lockout era. We're very comparable to the Bruins last year. But even as deep as they were up front and on defense, they don't win that cup without a historic miracle performance by Thomas throughout the playoffs. That's how hard it is to win the cup.

We've seen this team struggle against Pittsburgh, NJ, and even the Islanders when they play smart defensive hockey too, those teams tend to dominate scoring chances. We need more push back. Does Nash give us that? Certainly, but is losing Dubinsky, a 1st and at least two top prospects worth it? And is losing 7.8 mil in cap-space worth it? I'm not so sure.

One thing is for sure. Nash or no Nash, Parise or no Parise, we will never be the 94 team. STOP comparing this team to that team. It's futile, and even if we were able to replicate that team as closely as possible, there's no guarantee it gets us another cup. A lot of things had to go right for the 94 Rangers to win, as do a lot of things for any Stanley Cup champion. One bounce the other way in game 6 or 7 against the Devils and we don't even make it to the finals that year. That's how close things were, and I have to think they're even closer now since every team, especially the top 5-8 teams in each conference are so close in skill and any team can win on any given night. Nobody expected the Bruins to win last year, but they played their game, and got the bounces when they needed them. All Sather can do is try to build the best possible team going forward. After that, it's in the players hands.

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:53 PM
  #67
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Mortgage future CAP SPACE.
Maybe. Next year is no problem. With Nash, Del Zotto resigned for about $2.5m and Kreider on the books for about $1.75, Prust/Biron/Stralman totaling $2.75m they have about $50.6m committed for 2013-14 (8F, 4D, 2G). A lot depends on what happens with that Cap. If the Cap remains the same, you're talking about $13.7m in space in the 2013 off-season to resign McDonagh, Stepan, Anisimov, Hagelin and Sauer (all 5 are RFAs) plus one bottom-6 replacement. My guess is it will take between 10-11m to resign McDonagh, Stepan and Anisimov, leaving around 3-3.5m for Hagelin, Sauer, bottom-6er. Those numbers become proportionally less if the Cap goes down.

It's a little dicey, but I don't see how that's not doable. Worst case scenario, you trade Anisimov and Sauer, replacing them with players on entry level deals (Miller, Fasth, Erixon). Gaborik might be tradeable too.

The question is this:

Is it worth the risk of having to make tough decisions 2 years down the road in order to give yourself a better shot at the Cup for this playoff and next?

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02-24-2012, 09:55 PM
  #68
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Would it be worth it then? Who in their right minds would rather worry about re-signing a player two years from now instead of winning two cups? That is what adding Nash does to this team. It makes them serious favorites to go deep in the playoffs and win the cup.
This team is already a serious favorite to go deep in the playoffs. They've only lost 4 out of any 7 games twice (I think) all season. The only reason to add Nash right now is if you think it makes the Rangers a favorite for the Cup. I don't think it does. It adds skill, but it subtracts from an already glaring weakness on this team (post-season experience). Even worse, it limits the team's financial ability to make moves in the future.

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02-24-2012, 09:56 PM
  #69
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Nash deadline obsession 2012 = Richards deadline obsession 2011

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02-24-2012, 09:56 PM
  #70
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NHL Network says GM Howson wants the most he could possibly get out of the deal and that he's not quick to deal Nash.
He's not getting a better offer at the Draft. Howson either trades him now this weekend or it's the same song and dance next February.

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02-24-2012, 09:57 PM
  #71
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NHL Network says GM Howson wants the most he could possibly get out of the deal and that he's not quick to deal Nash.
GM Howson will get what ever GM Sathet will give him. Stop with this ******** GM Howson. Relax and breath deeper.

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02-24-2012, 09:57 PM
  #72
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NHL Network says GM Howson wants the most he could possibly get out of the deal and that he's not quick to deal Nash.
no way does he get a better deal in a few months

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02-24-2012, 09:57 PM
  #73
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Without you guys flaming me... is there any REAL talk about the possibility of targeting any FAs this upcoming year? LIKE Parise for instance?

If it came down to Nash vs Parise... that one's easy.

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02-24-2012, 09:58 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
As the guy who keeps calling Nash a floater, I don't see how that game or that highlight does ANYTHING to disprove my point. He floats. He plays hard when HE wants to. I see him play a dozen + times per year. When he's interested, he puts forth all the effort in the world. My point is that he's NOT interested in doing that more often than not. Frankly, the fact that Nash blocking a shot made a highlight reel is kind of pitiful. You could make ten highlight reels out of nothing but blocked shots by this Rangers team. On the Rangers, blocking a shot is an expectation, not a "highlight."
The highlight wasn't of him blocking a shot. It was in the second avalanche goal, he went down for the block and he missed br my point is that the effort is still there.

Glen clearly consults with Torts and if they're going after him they believe that they could make I'm motivated to play defense all the time a la a Marian Gaborik when he first got here. People said he only plays defense when he wanted to, but look at some of the great back necking plays he's made.

I think that Nash could change his mentality as well to fit in with his team. If he's shown those blue collar traits then I think with a little strict coaching they can change him into a decent enough two way forward not to be considered a liability.

This guys has something that only one person has on our team. He is a pure sniper that is arguably one of the best goals scorers in the league when motivated and playing win talent. I think a change of scenery will be plenty motivation for him.

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02-24-2012, 09:58 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Maybe. Next year is no problem. With Nash, Del Zotto resigned for about $2.5m and Kreider on the books for about $1.75, Prust/Biron/Stralman totaling $2.75m they have about $50.6m committed for 2013-14 (8F, 4D, 2G). A lot depends on what happens with that Cap. If the Cap remains the same, you're talking about $13.7m in space in the 2013 off-season to resign McDonagh, Stepan, Anisimov, Hagelin and Sauer (all 5 are RFAs) plus one bottom-6 replacement. My guess is it will take between 10-11m to resign McDonagh, Stepan and Anisimov, leaving around 3-3.5m for Hagelin, Sauer, bottom-6er. Those numbers become proportionally less if the Cap goes down.

It's a little dicey, but I don't see how that's not doable. Worst case scenario, you trade Anisimov and Sauer, replacing them with players on entry level deals (Miller, Fasth, Erixon). Gaborik might be tradeable too.

The question is this:

Is it worth the risk of having to make tough decisions 2 years down the road in order to give yourself a better shot at the Cup for this playoff and next?
I've already said I think Rick Nash is overrated and overpaid and his value is being significantly overrated.

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