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Nash Rumors VII: This Could Get Nash-ty (*************** is NOT a legitimate source)

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:59 PM
  #76
Bob Richards
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This team has three players who have all won at least one Stanley Cup. Richards won a Conn Smythe. Saying this team has no experience is a fallacy.

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02-24-2012, 09:59 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
Nash deadline obsession 2012 = Richards deadline obsession 2011
Yeah, but Nash deadline obsession 2012 is so much more antagonizing. I just want this ******** to be over with, if you don't think it's affecting the players you're crazy. And it certainly isn't any fun from fans' perspective just arguing back and forth about the same crap.

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02-24-2012, 09:59 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
I've already said I think Rick Nash is overrated and overpaid and his value is being significantly overrated.
You didn't answer the question. It's a 'yes or no' one. Nash being overrated and overpaid is not the same thing as saying Nash is not an upgrade.

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02-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You didn't answer the question. It's a 'yes or no' one. Nash being overrated and overpaid is not the same thing as saying Nash is not an upgrade.
How does it not answer the question?

Obviously Nash>Dubinsky let's say, but I said his impact is being overstated and he's not worth his contract and to mortgage future cap space.

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02-24-2012, 10:06 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
I think this madness needs to stop.

Stop comparing this team, and every Rangers team in the future to the 94 cup team. Of course we don't have a Messier. There are no Messiers in the league!
Did you even read my post? Not only did I specifically argue that this team is not like the 1994 team, I used many of the same arguments you are making in here. The ONLY reason I brought that team up was to contrast the difference in post-season experience (they had it--this team doesn't).

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If you want to make comparisons, compare this team to recent Cup winners, in the post-lockout era. We're very comparable to the Bruins last year. But even as deep as they were up front and on defense, they don't win that cup without a historic miracle performance by Thomas throughout the playoffs. That's how hard it is to win the cup.
Fine by me. Use the Bruins or any post-lockout-era Cup winner as a point of comparison. Can you find me ONE team among that group that won the Cup with as many playoff neophytes as we have on this roster? Boston had a ton of players with deep-playoff runs on their resume, including almost all of their key players.

Look at the Pens. The year before they won their Cup, they made a deep run. They ended up losing, largely because they weren't prepared (they said as much themselves--they all said that you can be told about the grind, but until you've lived it, you have no idea). The season after? They knew what to expect and they won the cup. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see the team winning the Cup this year when 80 % of their defense has almost no playoff experience, and 60% of the projected top 6 (with Nash) hasn't been past the first round.

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02-24-2012, 10:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
This team has three players who have all won at least one Stanley Cup. Richards won a Conn Smythe. Saying this team has no experience is a fallacy.

********. Stop spinning. Two of those three players are Rupp and Fedotenko. Rupp and Fedotenko aren't going to carry this team to a Stanley Cup.

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02-24-2012, 10:07 PM
  #82
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Not wanting Nash is not the same as not wanting more scoring. I'd love to see the team get a rental for their 1st and a middling prospect. I just don't see Nash as an intelligent move in the short term or the long term.
See, I read between the lines in statements like this and others and I see a fundamental unwillingness to trade players (and even top prospects) that fans have become attached to. "Oh yes, I want scoring, but figure out a way to do it on the cheap/temporarily without giving up my favorite players."

Why on earth would you want top-end GOAL SCORING to be the peripheral piece you bring in and then lose? These are the guys you lock up - it's why they get paid what they do. Look at Pittsburg, Chicago and Vancouver. The role players around the edges are supposed to be the guys you rent at the deadline.

This team needs true top-level, high-end scoring talent. Not "offensive" talent, but FINISHING talent. It is the one glaring hole in the organizaiton - and will continue to be until we acquire it from outside the organization. In order to acquire that talent, we need to A) abandon a season so that we draft in the top 5 and then wait for it to mature, B) sign it in unrestricted free agency or C) trade for it.

I don't see option A happening any time soon (and while I would've been okay with it the last two years, I'm not now that the team is in first place). That leaves options B and C, both of which require that you have to let go of the players/prospects you've become attached to, whether it be in a trade or because an incoming UFA forces them out for cap/roster reasons.

Rick Nash is the kind of talent we need. He's available. He will cost homegrown assets. There's no guarantee that Parise comes here or that there's even a season next year.

If you can get it done for the reported price - or even subbing in a Miller or an Erixon for one of the pieces - get it done.

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Old
02-24-2012, 10:08 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
How does it not answer the question?

Obviously Nash>Dubinsky let's say, but I said his impact is being overstated and he's not worth his contract and to mortgage future cap space.
Nash makes the team better.

The numbers have been worked and it doesn't hurt the future.

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02-24-2012, 10:10 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
********. Stop spinning. Two of those three players are Rupp and Fedotenko. Rupp and Fedotenko aren't going to carry this team to a Stanley Cup.
Carry is one thing, but I feel obligated to point out that Rupp and Feds both have goals that won the stanley cup.

They are more than capable of contributing when it matters most.

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02-24-2012, 10:11 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Nash makes the team better.

The numbers have been worked and it doesn't hurt the future.
Numbers been worked by who?

Someone in an earlier post said "Are you a cap expert"?

Well, is someone here part of Stepan's, McDonagh's, Del Zotto's, etc. camps, who know what they'll want in raises?

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02-24-2012, 10:12 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Maybe. Next year is no problem. With Nash, Del Zotto resigned for about $2.5m and Kreider on the books for about $1.75, Prust/Biron/Stralman totaling $2.75m they have about $50.6m committed for 2013-14 (8F, 4D, 2G). A lot depends on what happens with that Cap. If the Cap remains the same, you're talking about $13.7m in space in the 2013 off-season to resign McDonagh, Stepan, Anisimov, Hagelin and Sauer (all 5 are RFAs) plus one bottom-6 replacement. My guess is it will take between 10-11m to resign McDonagh, Stepan and Anisimov, leaving around 3-3.5m for Hagelin, Sauer, bottom-6er. Those numbers become proportionally less if the Cap goes down.

It's a little dicey, but I don't see how that's not doable. Worst case scenario, you trade Anisimov and Sauer, replacing them with players on entry level deals (Miller, Fasth, Erixon). Gaborik might be tradeable too.

The question is this:

Is it worth the risk of having to make tough decisions 2 years down the road in order to give yourself a better shot at the Cup for this playoff and next?
Damn it, I wrote a humongous post laying all of this out in painful detail, presenting the CapGeek calculations, etc. about 2 Nash threads ago... and here you go and sum it all up succinctly in just a couple of paragraphs. Grrr.

(Needless to say I agree 100%.)

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02-24-2012, 10:12 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
How does it not answer the question?

Obviously Nash>Dubinsky let's say, but I said his impact is being overstated and he's not worth his contract and to mortgage future cap space.
It didn't answer the question at all, but it does now... sort of.

Rick Nash's impact can be overstated, and he can be overrated, and he can be overpaid, (2 of those 3 are definitely true: impact and overpaid) but bringing him in can still be worth the risk of having to make those tough decisions down the road.

Ask a Blackhawks fan. They'll tell you that overpaying players is worth it if it gets you a Stanley Cup.

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02-24-2012, 10:12 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
See, I read between the lines in statements like this and others and I see a fundamental unwillingness to trade players (and even top prospects) that fans have become attached to. "Oh yes, I want scoring, but figure out a way to do it on the cheap/temporarily without giving up my favorite players."

Why on earth would you want top-end GOAL SCORING to be the peripheral piece you bring in and then lose? These are the guys you lock up - it's why they get paid what they do. Look at Pittsburg, Chicago and Vancouver. The role players around the edges are supposed to be the guys you rent at the deadline.

This team needs true top-level, high-end scoring talent. Not "offensive" talent, but FINISHING talent. It is the one glaring hole in the organizaiton - and will continue to be until we acquire it from outside the organization. In order to acquire that talent, we need to A) abandon a season so that we draft in the top 5 and then wait for it to mature, B) sign it in unrestricted free agency or C) trade for it.

I don't see option A happening any time soon (and while I would've been okay with it the last two years, I'm not now that the team is in first place). That leaves options B and C, both of which require that you have to let go of the players/prospects you've become attached to, whether it be in a trade or because an incoming UFA forces them out for cap/roster reasons.

Rick Nash is the kind of talent we need. He's available. He will cost homegrown assets. There's no guarantee that Parise comes here or that there's even a season next year.

If you can get it done for the reported price - or even subbing in a Miller or an Erixon for one of the pieces - get it done.
Sums it up perfectly.

You cannot realistically keep ALL of your homegrown pieces when they're secondary players - that's too much money tied up in players that should be ADDED to a core of "star" players, like Rick Nash, Marian Gaborik, and Brad Richards. Throw in Callahan and Stepan. There's your forward core (with Nash). Fill in from there with ELCs or cheap rentals/free agents.

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Old
02-24-2012, 10:17 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Numbers been worked by who?

Someone in an earlier post said "Are you a cap expert"?

Well, is someone here part of Stepan's, McDonagh's, Del Zotto's, etc. camps, who know what they'll want in raises?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Damn it, I wrote a humongous post laying all of this out in painful detail, presenting the CapGeek calculations, etc. about 2 Nash threads ago... and here you go and sum it all up succinctly in just a couple of paragraphs. Grrr.

(Needless to say I agree 100%.)
BRF, I'm sorry?

My favorite part is that people still ignore it. There are a few of us on this board who have a pretty intimate knowledge of the Cap.

(the best kinds of apologies are the one's that contain question marks )

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02-24-2012, 10:17 PM
  #90
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BRF, I'm sorry?

The best part is, people still ignore it. There are a few of us on this board who have a pretty intimate knowledge of the Cap.

(the best kinds of apologies are the one's that contain question marks )
Well, I didn't see it. Sorry I can't read every single post.

Link to said post?

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02-24-2012, 10:18 PM
  #91
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Gaborik has 34 games of playoffs experience, Rupp has 42. Richards has 63 and Feds has 88 games. Lundqvist has 35. Callahan has 27 and Staal has 22 games. It's not like this team is completely derth of playing in the playoffs. Losing Dubinsky's 22 playoff games will not harm this club. Add the goal scoring ability and more importantly (and what seems to be ignored by most) is how it will force the opposition teams coach to choose been Nash and Gaborik as to who to play their top defensmen/defensive forwards against.

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02-24-2012, 10:18 PM
  #92
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Surprised we haven't heard anything at all after the game.

Hopefully this is done tomorrrow I can't take much more of this.

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02-24-2012, 10:18 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Sums it up perfectly.

You cannot realistically keep ALL of your homegrown pieces when they're secondary players - that's too much money tied up in players that should be ADDED to a core of "star" players, like Rick Nash, Marian Gaborik, and Brad Richards. Throw in Callahan and Stepan. There's your forward core (with Nash). Fill in from there with ELCs or cheap rentals/free agents.
Young secondary players who are the main reason why we are in 1st place.

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02-24-2012, 10:19 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Well, I didn't see it. Sorry I can't read every single post.

Link to said post?
You ****ing QUOTED it! And my response, that you just quoted, quotes someone else who also quoted it!

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02-24-2012, 10:20 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
********. Stop spinning. Two of those three players are Rupp and Fedotenko. Rupp and Fedotenko aren't going to carry this team to a Stanley Cup.
Never did I say they would carry us all the way. I simply stated that this team is not completely devoid of playoff experience like some earlier posts suggest.

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02-24-2012, 10:21 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
See, I read between the lines in statements like this and others and I see a fundamental unwillingness to trade players (and even top prospects) that fans have become attached to. "Oh yes, I want scoring, but figure out a way to do it on the cheap/temporarily without giving up my favorite players."
You need to read a bit more closely between those lines. I was fine with including Dubinsky when we were discussing Bobby Ryan earlier in the season. I would seriously consider it if we were talking about Dustin Brown (depending on what other pieces would be involved in the trade). Hell, I might even consider it for Selanne, as he has playoff experience out the wazoo (though I would prefer to see them try to get him on the cheap). It has nothing to do with "don't trade my favorite player" (MDZ by the way--my favorite players have almost always been D-Men).

Quote:
Why on earth would you want top-end GOAL SCORING to be the peripheral piece you bring in and then lose? These are the guys you lock up - it's why they get paid what they do. Look at Pittsburg, Chicago and Vancouver. The role players around the edges are supposed to be the guys you rent at the deadline.
For the answer to that, just see my posts on the team's lack of playoff experience. The only reason to spend the assets and cap space NOW for a top-end goal scorer is if you think this team will win the Cup this year. I just don't see it. I can't remember ANY team winning the Cup with as many key players being post-season newbies. I want to see the team maybe add a peripheral piece or two and see what they can do this year. It will probably be very telling (ie- on a deep playoff run, who wilts? Who explodes? Some players might surprise us in good or bad ways). Then make the moves you want to make in the off-season. I prefer the safe, patient approach.

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02-24-2012, 10:21 PM
  #97
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Young secondary players who are the main reason why we are in 1st place.
Henrik Lundqvist and the defense are the main reason this team is in first place, with big contributions for the listed frowards.

Players like Dubinsky, Anisimov, and Hagelin are good depth pieces, but ultimately, should not be considered major pieces. If you have to sacrifice one of these players to add a Rick Nash (because of the cap)...you do it.

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02-24-2012, 10:22 PM
  #98
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BRF, I'm sorry?

My favorite part is that people still ignore it. There are a few of us on this board who have a pretty intimate knowledge of the Cap.

(the best kinds of apologies are the one's that contain question marks )
Hah!

Aw, that's alright, it got RL605 to ask me to link to it. Now I feel like it wasn't completely wasted.
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Well, I didn't see it. Sorry I can't read every single post.

Link to said post?
Ask and you shall receive.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=#post44361751

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Old
02-24-2012, 10:23 PM
  #99
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smoneil: I do agree somewhat with one thing. I, too, have a concern about the lack of playoff experience on this team. However, bringing in Nash doesn't change that issue one way or the other. It simply remains the same. So, let's say this year we get to the ECF. Is the team better next year with Dubinsky having that playoff experience or Nash having that playoff experience?

That argument is certainly valid, but IMO it's also very limited.

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02-24-2012, 10:24 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Carry is one thing, but I feel obligated to point out that Rupp and Feds both have goals that won the stanley cup.

They are more than capable of contributing when it matters most.

I agree, but Pittsburg/Tampa PROBABLY still win the Cup if you replace Rupp/Feds with other comparable players. They don't if you remove players from their top lines/d-pairs.

We need our top players to have that playoff experience, and they can only get that by playing. I really see this team as being in the same spot as Pittsburgh the year they lost to Detroit. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but can you think of any team that won the Cup with a roster as inexperienced as ours?

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