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Old
02-24-2012, 01:28 PM
  #26
KingPurpleDinosaur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadite View Post
+1

Seems that some people think having young players in the AHL is more important that young players in the NHL! We're the 2nd youngest team in the league for a reason...
this is hfboards. being #1 in prospects is more important than winning a stanley cup.

it's comical how these people only like prospects because they can discuss their high/low end potential at league minimum costs. This is before these prospects disappoint them with reality

with that said, i had problems with us being ranked so high before. didn't see it then and don't see it now. But again, who we value (1st-2nd round picks) is far different than who DL values. King, Nolan, Clifford, Lewis, and Simmonds are/were no where near the imminent call-up prospects that HF projects.

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02-24-2012, 01:38 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
The Kool-Aid is strong with this one.

Hickey and Lewis have "had a few years..."

And the count is still at ZERO for scoring forwards drafted by Lombardi. (unless if you want to count players that he's traded away - I don't really count those)

And Lewis isn't a total bust? Really?? If he had been drafted in the 3rd or 4th rounds, I'd agree with you, but not at #17 overall. At 17 you'd "like" to have an impact player (scoring - do I see a trend?).

And while Dean is at it, Bernier should be rolled for another scorer.

And credit for Doughty?? really? at #2, he's a no-brainer. (oops, DL missed a #4, so maybe I should give him credit for getting Dough-boy at 2 )
why wouldn't you count those? those players turned into Mike Richards, so they are definitely worth counting.

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02-24-2012, 02:03 PM
  #28
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So, sorry, where are these perennial cup winners and their "prospect rankings"?

Looking back at the Nov 22nd rankings, you have Florida (who essentially bought their team through FA and play in a train wreck division) Ottawa who sits in 7th in the East...

Then you get into the weeds with a mix of teams that are "ok" (are the preds a cup contender? no chance.) and more horrid teams, and then you get down to this:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/nhl_org...ings/?start=24

I think everyone would be pretty damn happy if the Kings were sitting where either San Jose or Vancouver is over the last couple of seasons. Cup-less? Yes. Only one team can win per year. Sure, Boston is #16, but do you think some of those pieces will be moved to get them yet another chance to win? Probably.

If you're complaining that there aren't enough prospects, when you just handed Voynov the keys to JJ's Ferrari, Clifford exceeded lineup expectations (well everyone's except Dean's) Bernier is officially a backup, and Loki is being looked at as a serious NHL player, here or otherwise....I think I have to wonder what your definition of prospect. I mean, ideally they either play for your club, or are traded to bring something else in, right? Say what you want about Penner, no one in the Kings org misses Teubert. While Simmer's good season stings a little, you still traded someone with the potential to be a Mike Richards type player (Schenn) for...well...the real Mike Richards. Every single GM in the league would take that swap, every single time.

We'd all like to pretend that teams are just chomping at the bit to trade their top6 winger for Joe (bernier), but it aint happening. I direct your attention to our friend in MPLS, Josh Harding.

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Old
02-24-2012, 02:07 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Washington View Post
Doughty wasn't a no brainer at the time, if I remember correctly Bogosian had the potential to go above him.
They all had the potential to go #2, but Dean was pretty set on DD from early on. It would have taken a cataclysmic event to derail it. Still think it's funny that Burkie ended up with Schenn. I oft wondered if he'd been able to move up to #3 if he'd taken Bogo.

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02-24-2012, 02:37 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
There were four defensemen who were considered to be contenders to be selected at #2:

Doughty
Bogosian
Pietrangelo
Schenn
yep...Stamkos then 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d. at the time i was hoping they would go with Bogey or Schenn, because they play more physically. in reality i still cant believe they won and let TB move in for Stamkos. just where would this team be now if they had the #1 and drafted Stamkos.....that will always be a big 'what if' for Kings fans.

the point is for the prospects to graduate to the NHL. to backfill roster spots as players move along. to fill in roster spots with young talent that is cost affordable and gives a team X years. the point isn't to retain them as prospects, that doesn't fit anything except idiots that want to rank and grade team's prospect pools.

in a perfect world LA stays in the top 10, maybe drops to 15. the point is to constantly replenish this pool and you do this primarily via the draft. it's virtually impossible to maintain a very good pool without high picks. there is a reason #1-3 picks are valued so highly. the drop off and bust rate of players after the 3rd round rises substantially when it comes to ever seeing the NHL

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Old
02-24-2012, 02:43 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livingminimal View Post

We'd all like to pretend that teams are just chomping at the bit to trade their top6 winger for Joe (bernier), but it aint happening. I direct your attention to our friend in MPLS, Josh Harding.
Thank you for letting us know who the hell "Joe" is...Wouldn't it be Jon? LOL Anyway, I don't think people think just trading Bernier alone will land us a top 6 forward.

What about Harding? The guy is never healthy!

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02-24-2012, 02:50 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by JBernierFan View Post
Thank you for letting us know who the hell "Joe" is...Wouldn't it be Jon? LOL Anyway, I don't think people think just trading Bernier alone will land us a top 6 forward.

What about Harding? The guy is never healthy!

His nickname is Joe.

Again, if you read what I said about Harding and Bernier being in nearly identical predicaments two years ago...

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02-24-2012, 04:13 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Time to look to the college ranks for some unsigned free agent prospects to add to the pipeline. That's the route they took to sign talent like Matt Moulson, Teddy Purcell, Davis Drewiske, Peter Harrold, Steven Reinprecht, Jason Blake, Dan Bylsma, and of course we can't forget about Steve McKenna, Joe Piskula and Mike Pudlick.
Agreed, I hope we do go into the college route this year. Does anyone know what our contract total is sitting at right now? How many openings do we have left and what (if any) draftees do we have to sign before the deadline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
The Kool-Aid is strong with this one.

Hickey and Lewis have "had a few years..."

And the count is still at ZERO for scoring forwards drafted by Lombardi. (unless if you want to count players that he's traded away - I don't really count those)

And Lewis isn't a total bust? Really?? If he had been drafted in the 3rd or 4th rounds, I'd agree with you, but not at #17 overall. At 17 you'd "like" to have an impact player (scoring - do I see a trend?).

And while Dean is at it, Bernier should be rolled for another scorer.

And credit for Doughty?? really? at #2, he's a no-brainer. (oops, DL missed a #4, so maybe I should give him credit for getting Dough-boy at 2 )
Say what you want Butch, but what I said is true.

As I said, Hickey has been a flop. I'm referring to his 4th overall selection. He still could easily be a regular NHLer, many on this board have said he'd likely be in the NHL on a thinner depth chart. Is he going to live up to his 4th overall billing? Not a chance. Is he going to be a star? Nope. Is he never going to an NHLer? Still undetermined.

Btw, why can't you count scoring forwards traded away? That's like saying you don't earn any money because you spent all your pay chaeque paying the bills. Schenn and Simmonds were dealt to land a top 2 line centre, some would argue a 1A. That's a scoring forward. Period. Simmonds is on pace for 20 goals, Schenn is a premier offensive prospect. Period. You don';t want to count them for whatever reason, but DL did draft them and developed them to the point they were NHL players.

As for Lewis, yes, of course you want an impact player. No one wants to draft a Trevor Lewis 17th overall. But you need to review past drafts Butch. Outside of very rare drafts like 1979 and 2003, how many 1st round players play even 300 NHL games? A lot flop out and miss completely. The fact that after five-plus years have gone by Lewis has played more games than nearly half of his fellow 1st rounders tells you that while he may be a disappointment, he's not a bust. We could be like the other 10 or so teams that got even less.

Finally, to not give credit for Doughty simply implies you know almost zilch about drafting. There are plenty of flops at #2 overall. As others have pointed out, There were a lot of very good D-men who were expected to go after Stamkos. Doughty, Bognosian and Pieterangelo were the big three, but Schenn and even Myers were being touted highly as well and all five were mentioned as possible picks at second overall. Many pundits had Bognosian ahead of Doughty due to Bogs more physical demeanor. But DL made the right pick of those five very talented defenseman. Not an easy call at all. To not give credit is just making you look like a donkey IMO.

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Old
02-24-2012, 04:24 PM
  #34
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RE: Gretzky era of trading picks/prospects for vets = now

what was the overall age of the team we had after trading those picks/prospects vs what our overall age of team is now?

its not even close so that argument is totally invalid.


i will be the first one here saying i told you so when TH finally gets his shot, the kid is not a bust he was a long term project all along.

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02-24-2012, 04:39 PM
  #35
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Lots of talented 20s in the AHL = "It's cool guys, we got this"
Lots of talented 20s in the NHL = "We haz none prospectz!"

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Old
02-24-2012, 05:30 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Agreed, I hope we do go into the college route this year. Does anyone know what our contract total is sitting at right now? How many openings do we have left and what (if any) draftees do we have to sign before the deadline?
They're at 47 contracts, not including their junior prospects (Toffoli, Weal, Roach) and with Cam Paddock released.
Starting July 1, 2012, they'll have 32 contracted players with 12 RFAs.

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Old
02-24-2012, 09:43 PM
  #37
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What is everyones opinion on Kitsyn now days?

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Old
02-24-2012, 10:14 PM
  #38
Ziggy Stardust
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I wouldn't say he's chopped liver but Kitsyn is wasting away in the KHL.

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Old
02-24-2012, 10:22 PM
  #39
Butch 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
why wouldn't you count those? those players turned into Mike Richards, so they are definitely worth counting.
well, because none of them were scorers when they played here.

Sure, Simmonds is scoring now, and Richards isn't - but really, does anyone think Simmonds is actually a BETTER player/scorer than Richards? I highly doubt it. What does that say about the players, coaches, systems, GMs, trainers, or whatever else you want to compare.

The fact remains: none of them are scoring for the Kings...

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Old
02-24-2012, 11:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
this is hfboards. being #1 in prospects is more important than winning a stanley cup.

it's comical how these people only like prospects because they can discuss their high/low end potential at league minimum costs. This is before these prospects disappoint them with reality

with that said, i had problems with us being ranked so high before. didn't see it then and don't see it now. But again, who we value (1st-2nd round picks) is far different than who DL values. King, Nolan, Clifford, Lewis, and Simmonds are/were no where near the imminent call-up prospects that HF projects.
Couldn't have said it any better.

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGzzzZzz WE AREN'T GOING TO BE #1 on HFBOARDS ...

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Old
02-24-2012, 11:41 PM
  #41
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Why don't we dump Lewis and/or Richardson for picks?

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Old
02-24-2012, 11:57 PM
  #42
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So the cupboard is empty simply because we don't have any potential "elite' scoring forwards after Toffoli, right?

We are overloaded still on D and have 2 exceptionally talented young goalie prospects.

We have Kitsyn who has second line power forward LW written all over him and every critic who watched him play through the playoffs last year think he has an even higher upside than I do.

Same can be said about Kozun, 2/3rd line grinder with an elite set of hands. He doesn't convert as much as most would like but he has always been considered an excellent scorer. I see him as our perfect 3rd line RW but that's me.

We have Vey who is having a great first year in the pro's and has been an exceptional scorer at every level he has played.

Andy A looks like a huge improvement to our bottom 6.

The list goes on for a few more kids to (Shore Nolan etc).

Bag on dean all you want but we have Loktionov, Voynov A Mart Doughty Johnson (dealt but relevant) Lewis Nolan King and Davis D all on the team (or dealt like JJ) thanks to him. All playing in the NHL. We have built from within.

If you want to say that the cupboard is empty of elite potential snipers then you are perfectly right as long as you omit Toffi but other than that we are overloaded on D prospects and several of them are "elite" caliber top four pairing guys with a couple of them being potential top 1/2 guys to boot.

We have two very good to exceptional goalies, again.

We are loaded with character guys some of which have 2nd line very good or 3rd line exceptional written all over them as well.

The cupboard is nowhere near empty. Not even close.

We are devoid of potential first line caliber sniper types after TT but other than that we look very very good and have a very full cupboard.


Last edited by etherialone: 02-25-2012 at 12:02 AM.
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Old
02-24-2012, 11:59 PM
  #43
etherialone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riseandfall9 View Post
Couldn't have said it any better.

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMOMGzzzZzz WE AREN'T GOING TO BE #1 on HFBOARDS ...

You know what is even funnier?

The place that you are posting on is actually not called "hf".

It is called hockeys future.

What do you expect?

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Old
02-25-2012, 12:00 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Sure, Simmonds is scoring now, and Richards isn't - but really, does anyone think Simmonds is actually a BETTER player/scorer than Richards? I highly doubt it. What
Scorer? As in point producer? I think Simmonds is equal to Richards as a point producer.

People will look at the career point totals of Richards and Simmonds and think I'm crazy, but you have to remember that Simmonds didn't get regular PP time when he was here. If you look specifically at even strength points, Simmonds has been more productive than Richards over the past two seasons (09-10 & 10-11), while getting less ice time, and playing in a more defensive oriented system.

Terry Murray FAILED miserably at recognizing and developing Wayne's offensive upside. Had he got regular PP time when he was here (which he CLEARLY should have gotten), he probably would have been a 20 goal, 50 point player, which isn't easy to do playing in such an anemic offense.

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02-25-2012, 12:03 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Why don't we dump Lewis and/or Richardson for picks?
Because we love having 20 Center men.. builds versatility.

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Old
02-25-2012, 12:05 AM
  #46
etherialone
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Scorer? As in point producer? I think Simmonds is equal to Richards as a point producer.

People will look at the career point totals of Richards and Simmonds and think I'm crazy, but you have to remember that Simmonds didn't get regular PP time when he was here. If you look specifically at even strength points, Simmonds has been more productive than Richards over the past two seasons (09-10 & 10-11), while getting less ice time, and playing in a more defensive oriented system.

Terry Murray FAILED miserably at recognizing and developing Wayne's offensive upside. Had he got regular PP time when he was here (which he CLEARLY should have gotten), he probably would have been a 20 goal, 50 point player, which isn't easy to do playing in such an anemic offense.
Didn't you expect Simmonds to develop further as a scorer once he left our rigid D first and foremost system? I did. Everyone knew he had the skills. His being dealt was also a wake up call for WS or maybe better said a strong maturing process step forward.

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02-25-2012, 12:15 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Didn't you expect Simmonds to develop further as a scorer once he left our rigid D first and foremost system? I did. Everyone knew he had the skills. His being dealt was also a wake up call for WS or maybe better said a strong maturing process step forward.
I did as well. I wish Terry would have made more of an effort to develop his offensive game by using him in a scoring role more often.

Even in our restrictive defense first system, Wayne registered 69 even strength points over the previous two seasons playing for us. By comparison, Richards scored 68 even strength points over the previous two seasons playing for the Flyers....And Simmonds played in less games overall, and got less ice time. Amazing.

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02-25-2012, 12:22 AM
  #48
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Can we please Keep the Simmer/Richards talk in the Richards thread. Don't turn every thread into this dead horse debate.

Back on topic,

The Kings still have plenty to add eaither Winger depth or add roster players (bottom guys) in the next coming years. If you want to talk elite talent, yes the Kings are thin there. That is what happens when your first round picks are projects (Forbort although a good one). Or guys you draft in the wrong Mold/spot/Injury (Teubert/Lewis/Hickey).


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Old
02-25-2012, 12:25 AM
  #49
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I think DL would dump Richardson if we got someone worth having in those spots. They're both worth 4th rounders IMO.

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02-25-2012, 12:30 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
I think DL would dump Richardson if we got someone worth having in those spots. They're both worth 4th rounders IMO.
The other issue is.

Hextall didn't like what happend to Moller, said the Kings screwed up developing him.

I think the Kings would like to leave the Kids down in Manchester as long as they can.

Nolan/King/Loki/Clifford could all use more time in Manchester. But Dean screwed up the Bottom six and Penner (sucks) Gagne got hurt(Shocker right ?). Stoll (sucks). So what are you going to do right ?

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