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Ryan Suter - is he a franchise defenceman?

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Old
02-26-2012, 04:39 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't think Suter or Carle are what's needed by the Flyers. They need a solid defensive presence who plays with some snarl and will make people pay the price in the slot. They get that physical presence back there that strikes some fear into teams, then that works.
No one like that available in off season. Sutter is the best possible UFA and he will replace Timonen a year form now. If we are lucky enough to sign him.

Or are you referring to Weber?

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02-26-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't think Suter or Carle are what's needed by the Flyers. They need a solid defensive presence who plays with some snarl and will make people pay the price in the slot. They get that physical presence back there that strikes some fear into teams, then that works.
100% agree with you, I'm sure Suter is an upgrade for the D right now, but maybe signing one big fish isn't the way, maybe 2-3 defensively responsible guys who play with a snarl instead, if the Flyers spread the wealth around instead of having someone like Suter come in and hang all the franchise's hopes on him to turn the entire D around, that's just another idea, maybe it's not a good one, I was just thinking aloud

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02-26-2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RespectTheMajor View Post
100% agree with you, I'm sure Suter is an upgrade for the D right now, but maybe signing one big fish isn't the way, maybe 2-3 defensively responsible guys who play with a snarl instead, if the Flyers spread the wealth around instead of having someone like Suter come in and hang all the franchise's hopes on him to turn the entire D around, that's just another idea, maybe it's not a good one, I was just thinking aloud
This is the logic that gave us Hatch/Rathje instead of Niedermayer.

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02-26-2012, 05:18 PM
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I've looked inside my crystal ball and have seen an enraged Flyers fanbase this summer. One of two things will happen, with A being highly more probable.

A) Neither Suter nor Webber become Flyers. This means, of course, that Holmgren is completely out of touch with what the team needs and is driving this franchise off a cliff. The fact that Weber is RFA, which is actually different from UFA, will be conveniently ignored, mis-understood, and or trivialized. Also, the fact that there are plenty of other teams that might want to sign them will not occur to anyone. That would imply that they're not our little secret and that professional GM's may actually be able to judge talent almost as well as the Flyers fans on HFBoards.

B) The Flyers win the sweepstakes to overpay for Suter. We then find out he's not future Hall Of Famer Chris Pronger and he can't, single handedly, covert this confused headless chicken act into a highly efficient defense capable of putting Bryz into the Vezina race. We then get to call him an over paid bum for the next 4-5 years.

Either way, good times around here for sure...

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02-26-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JGalt View Post
This is the logic that gave us Hatch/Rathje instead of Niedermayer.
Their was a 0% chance that Niedermayer would have signed with us. He rejected a league maximum offer from the Devils to play on the Ducks with his brother Rob. We went and signed Forsberg.

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02-26-2012, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JGalt View Post
This is the logic that gave us Hatch/Rathje instead of Niedermayer.
I don't think Niedermayer ever intended on going anywhere else besides Anaheim.

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02-26-2012, 05:36 PM
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I don't think Niedermayer ever intended on going anywhere else besides Anaheim.
True but this is the year when Edmonton traded for Pronger and we got 3.5M hatcher and 3.5M Rathje

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02-26-2012, 05:38 PM
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I don't think Suter is the answer here. He's a nice piece, but he's not a Chara/Pronger/Lidstrom type that changes the whole D

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02-26-2012, 05:46 PM
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weber would be a beast in orange. just not going to happen

they need to draft a stud d prospect in the worst way

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02-26-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
True but this is the year when Edmonton traded for Pronger and we got 3.5M hatcher and 3.5M Rathje
We didn't have much in the way of young players to trade for Pronger, especially on defense which is what the Blues wanted.

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02-26-2012, 06:07 PM
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For those who do want physicality, remember, Kubina does want to re-sign and he's not really interesting in testing UFA waters.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/i...139721283.html

Honestly, I think we should give him a shot if we he can take a pretty big discount.

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02-26-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
We didn't have much in the way of young players to trade for Pronger, especially on defense which is what the Blues wanted.
Hmmm we did not have Pitkanen?

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02-26-2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
Hmmm we did not have Pitkanen?
Joni's tenor may have ended badly but that man looked like the next big thing early on. I don't think anyone wanted to move him.

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02-26-2012, 06:24 PM
  #39
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It is these advance statistics that really hurt the game of hockey. I think advanced statistics has its place in a sport like baseball, but in hockey there is so much more going on.

We all watch Matt Carle. Matt Carle is a great passer on the PP , he is overmatched during the PK and is physically unable to handle his man in the Dzone. He is a good skater and scrappy player but he far to careless ( as are a majority of our players) with the puck. He has really had a bad month and we are all noticing it. We don't need advanced stats to tell us just how good he is compared to Suter.
I like advanced stats because it shuts down people who state pure opinion based as facts. Like your example of Matt Carle. Some people here STILL think he is above average on the defensive side. When you look at advanced stats though, you will see that he gets scored on the most, doesnt face top opposition, and ussually is played with the team's best players (in regards to their own corsi, etc etc.)

Now if you look at a player, and see that when he is on the ice he gets scored on alot, would you than consider him a good defender? You can bring in who he plays with and against whom, but yet again advanced stats show these also. The good thing about advanced stats is, they are unbiased and show the truth.

Now you gotta watch out for Leed. He likes Matt Carle, not as much as DenverBone, but pretty close.

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02-26-2012, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
Joni's tenor may have ended badly but that man looked like the next big thing early on. I don't think anyone wanted to move him.
That's not the point. My reply to GKJ was that Flyers had a major piece to move for 30 year old Pronger. Not 36 year old Pronger.

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02-26-2012, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
That's not the point. My reply to GKJ was that Flyers had a major piece to move for 30 year old Pronger. Not 36 year old Pronger.
Even if hypothetically the Flyers were willing to move Joni at the time keep in mind the price Pronger went for. The Blues got 3 defensive prospects in return. Even though none reached their full hype just matching the offer would be something like Joni, another strong defensive prospect, and a half decent defensive prospect. We probably couldn't match it ether way.

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02-26-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
Even if hypothetically the Flyers were willing to move Joni at the time keep in mind the price Pronger went for. The Blues got 3 defensive prospects in return. Even though none reached their full hype just matching the offer would be something like Joni, another strong defensive prospect, and a half decent defensive prospect. We probably couldn't match it ether way.
O please.. Ok they had major player in Brewer, Wowitka or whatever his name always sucked. I mean we drafted that clown. I do not know what kind of prospect Lynch was.

So once again.. We had Pitkanen and lets say our 1st. Pitkanen was top 10 maybe even top 5 d-sive prospect especially after he helped to win Calder.


Anyway, poit was we had a shot at Pronger.

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02-26-2012, 07:42 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
O please.. Ok they had major player in Brewer, Wowitka or whatever his name always sucked. I mean we drafted that clown. I do not know what kind of prospect Lynch was.

So once again.. We had Pitkanen and lets say our 1st. Pitkanen was top 10 maybe even top 5 d-sive prospect especially after he helped to win Calder.


Anyway, poit was we had a shot at Pronger.
Hindsight is 20/20. Woywitka and Lynch weren't any older then 21 at the time and still considered decent prospects. At the time on paper it wasn't a weak package. Pitkanen and a 1st may get them listening but neither of us can definitively say it would have been enough in the eyes of the Blues. Keep in mind despite the Blues being terrible that season they were a franchise that always made the playoffs before hand. They weren't rebuilding they were clearing cap. Prospects closer to being NHL ready may have been more attractive then late round picks.

At the time though I still don't think that was in the Flyers plans. They had a lot of strong prospects and they actually seemed interested in holding onto them. In addition a lot of talent was in the FA pool and the Flyers had a lot of free cap space. The idea of holding onto our top prospects and going to the FA market wasn't a bad idea. It just turned out that Rathje and Hatcher were not made for the NHL's new rules something many GM's did not see as numerous NHL teams signed older players who were dominant before the lockout but died off in the new NHL.

I agree Pronger would have been a much better move but I don't see any reason to say the Flyers should have known better at the time or had the wrong priorities.

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02-26-2012, 07:54 PM
  #44
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Dude stop it. Woywitka was never decent. Never! Clown.

I do/did not know much about Lynch and I bet you do not either.

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02-27-2012, 12:56 AM
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If Suter/Weber is a pipe-dream, does this line up really sound that bad?

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Ben Holmstrom ($0.825m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Nicklas Grossman ($2.500m)
Pavel Kubina ($2.000m) / Marc-Andre Bourdon ($1.000m)
Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,334,444; BONUSES: $3,555,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,965,556

I mean, if need be, we can spend that rest on something bigger up front or on D if Suter/Weber is out the question.

I do still think Timonen, Mez, Kubina and MAB are PP d-men quality.

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02-27-2012, 01:13 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
For those who do want physicality, remember, Kubina does want to re-sign and he's not really interesting in testing UFA waters.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/i...139721283.html

Honestly, I think we should give him a shot if we he can take a pretty big discount.
Where would the physicality come from? Certainly not Kubina at 36 and 260 lbs...Big bodies don't = big hits. He's thrown maybe 2 ok hits since he's been here. Nothing to strike fear into an opponent.

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02-27-2012, 01:16 AM
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Where would the physicality come from? Certainly not Kubina at 36 and 260 lbs...Big bodies don't = big hits. He's thrown maybe 2 ok hits since he's been here. Nothing to strike fear into an opponent.
From what I've seen of him so far, he at least stands up to people at the blue line. Coburn, while taller, has problems doing that. Blocking shots also comes with a bit in physicality. Even if you don't lay in big hits, rubbing people off, blocking shots and standing up to people are other aspects to physicality as well.

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02-27-2012, 01:18 AM
  #48
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i really doubt anyone around here would want to pay the price to land Weber. He will cost more then JVR and a 1st

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02-27-2012, 01:21 AM
  #49
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From what I've seen of him so far, he at least stands up to people at the blue line. Coburn, while taller, has problems doing that. Blocking shots also comes with a bit in physicality. Even if you don't lay in big hits, rubbing people off, blocking shots and standing up to people are other aspects to physicality as well.
He has made some nice plays, and broken up a lot of plays as well. But physicality isn't his forte. A guy his age/size/speed, standing up someone at the blueline could backfire more than it succeeds. Fotunately he's smarter than most of our others back there and plays it well.

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02-27-2012, 01:27 AM
  #50
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Dude stop it. Woywitka was never decent. Never! Clown.

I do/did not know much about Lynch and I bet you do not either.
Reread my post. Unless it's just going over your head. If you want a more recent comparison Woywitka could be compared to Ryan Parent. A 1st round pick, held value for a few years before people realized he had no pro level talent.

And nope I didn't know very much about Lynch, but not because he had no potential or promise, simply because no normal person is going to be well educated on every prospect that gets drafted, hence I am sure I could list the 2011 2nd round draft class and you yourself would not be able to give me an accurate scouting report on each name. So as far as Doug Lynch goes I did some research. He was a prospect with some buzz around him not just at the draft but well after as he was progressing nicely in the Oilers system. but it seems most (including Lynch himself) credit injuries to debunking his career before he reached the NHL level as he started playing through serious injuries when he should have been out for weeks at a time. I can't say he would have panned out ether way but the point remains. These were considered good prospects at the time even if none reached the hype.

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