Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
as you say it, at least Clitsome was a top pairing guy facing tougher opposition..
Schneider ever been a NHL backup and never been tested as a #01. as a backup he faced none of the top 5 offensive in the league last year but 6 time a bottom 5. (3 time versus Edmonton).
The top ten comparison is unfair, its harder to be a top ten defensemen than being a top ten goalie, since there is more Defensemen than goalie in the league.
Im not saying that Clitsome is a future franchise defenseman, but its a defenseman we can compare very well to Schneider in term of number of NHL games played, age and performance so far. I can see their trade value being close as well. (defensemen worth more than goalie in recent trade/UFA signing)
Where is the question mark in that quote? Read the bolded sentence. Case closed.
At the beginning of the season you suggested that a good return for Schneider would be Grant Clitsome (currently on waivers). I'm not really sure anyone can take your evaluation of Canuck player value at all seriously.
You're wasting effort just by typing that. He's not a human, he's a semisentient bot designed to seek out any mention of Cory Schneider and inform the world how valueless he is. The Nigerians were trying to reprogram him to spam advance fee scam emails, but it didn't take.
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Schenn for Schneider would possibly work for both teams now that Ballard's on LTIR and his cap hit's off the books. Getting Schenn away from Ron Wilson and working with coaches who actually know what they're doing would do wonders for the kid.
Look its really easy.... RDRR was the one suggesting this.....
QUOTE=RDRR;36081083]As a Canucks fan, I think a package like this would provide fair value RIGHT NOW:
A top 4 defenceman under the age of 25 that has shown the same potential for his position as Schneider has for his.
And a young forward that has earned as similar role to that of Raymond in Vancouver without the help of someone of Kesler's caliber, but displays more all around ability.
I wouldn't take this because I strongly believe Hodgson's stock will rise again.
Also, I wouldn't mind waiting to see what else Schneider can bring to this club.[/QUOTE]
I only asked if Clitsome was Fitting the description, made the point they could be seen close in value, but i never ever suggested Clitsome was a good return for Schneider...
You know how i have no problem to hold my idea and opinion and take the heat...so if i really wanted to suggest Clitsome was a good return for Schneider....i would be actually trying to prove to you he is a good return....
Just the end of this thread...Even at the time...i was saying i didnt suggest it.
Nittimaki, Conklyn, clear the waiver
Nabokov claimed on waiver by NYI
Montoya ? 6th round
Vokoun and Giguere last deadline? no taker
Roloson last year ? A disappointing Ty wishart
Bryzgalov ? His right for a 3th
A young prospect like Joacim Ericksson ? Still up for grab
Florida ? Theodore UFA
Phoenix? Smith UFA
Washington ? Vokoun UFA
Ottawa ? Anderson for Elliot
Tampa Bay ? A cheap UFA Garon can do a better job than a proven Roloson.
Colombus? Sandford UFA
Minessota ? Harding as cheap UFA
St-louis ? Showed the league that a cheap UFA like Elliot could be as good an option than giving asset for a young Halak
Colorado ? Showed the league that a cheap UFA like Giguere is probably as good an option than giving asset for a young goalie like Varlamov.
I dont know why everyone use Varlamov to gauge the Goalie market, when he is clearly an exception to the general rules: Teams usually doesnt give a lot to find a goalie solution.
So your list shows a bunch of low end goalies that nobody wanted to pay anything for and aren't doing much to help their teams out plus a few pricey UFAs that ARE helping their teams get into the playoffs? Schneider falls into neither category being relatively young and Vancouver has let him play some of the toughest games this year (Boston, Chicago, NJ) where he has been outstanding. So despite Varlamov's return being "the exception to the rule", I'll suggest that Schneider is a fairly exceptional young goalie, so I expect his return to reflect that.
Im gauging the goalie market, Why do you think Nabokov signed Oversea? Because there was no market $ for him in the NHL.
Why do you think an out-of-the-playoff Florida team choose to not trade Vokoun? The offer wasnt good.
We live in a world where Vokoun need to accept a ''paycut'' to 1 500 000$ to play in Washington, just some day after Washington gave a 3 500 000$ to an old Hamrlik. And while Jagr is accepting a ''Paycut'' at 3 300 000$ to play with a contending team.
Its really easy to gauge a market..just look the the $ Goalie make vs Defenseman vs Forward. Goaltender is arguably the most important position and therefore should get the biggest league contract. Only, the supply demand bring the market down to a point where they have to accept less money.
It could all change in the future..but this is the current market.
Accepting a paycut to play for a certain team doesn't change the market much. Otherwise you can use examples like Burrows taking 2 mil to stay with the 'nucks and argue any 2way winger that scores 30 goal is worth 2mil. They are exception to the rule. Nabby went oversea when the market was flooded (in an offseason where goalie value was lower). Remember thats what Chicago won the cup with an average goalie. When Boston won the cup due Thomas and Van had another Vezina finalist, goalies value jump'd up. Look at Rinne's contract, that puts top end goalies pay competitive to that of other positions. Also Col/Was trade happened that off season. The same time that it was reported the 'nucks were offered a top 9 forward and the 11th pick before the deal happened for Cory.
I.e.
Dman vs Goalie
1. Weber, Shea » D NAS 26 1 $7,500,000
2. Campbell, Brian » D FLA 32 8 $7,142,875
3. Doughty, Drew » D LAK 22 8 $7,000,000
4. Chara, Zdeno » D BOS 34 7 $6,916,667
5. Bouwmeester, Jay » D CGY 28 5 $6,680,000
6. Boyle, Dan » D SAN 35 6 $6,666,667
7. Phaneuf, Dion » D TOR 26 6 $6,500,000
8. Redden, Wade » D NYR 34 6 $6,500,000
9. Timonen, Kimmo » D PHI 36 6 $6,333,333
10. Lidstrom, Nicklas » D DET 41 1 $6,200,000
11. Seabrook, Brent » D CHI 26 5 $5,800,000
12. Markov, Andrei » D MTL 33 3 $5,750,000
13. Visnovsky, Lubomir » D ANA 35 5 $5,600,000
14. Keith, Duncan » D CHI 28 13 $5,538,462
15. Gonchar, Sergei » D OTT 37 3 $5,500,000
16. Wisniewski, James » D CLB 28 6 $5,500,000
17. Green, Mike » D WAS 26 4 $5,250,000
18. Yandle, Keith » D PHO 25 5 $5,250,000
19. Byfuglien, Dustin » D WIN 26 5 $5,200,000
20. Rozsival, Michal » D PHO 33 4 $5,000,000
1. Lundqvist, Henrik » G NYR 29 6 $6,875,000
2. Ward, Cam » G CAR 27 6 $6,300,000
3. Miller, Ryan » G BUF 31 5 $6,250,000
4. Backstrom, Niklas » G MIN 34 4 $6,000,000
5. Kiprusoff, Miikka » G CGY 35 6 $5,833,333
6. Bryzgalov, Ilya » G PHI 31 9 $5,666,667
7. Huet, Cristobal » G CHI 36 4 $5,625,000
8. Luongo, Roberto » G VAN 32 12 $5,333,333
9. Brodeur, Martin » G NJD 39 6 $5,200,000
10. Thomas, Tim » G BOS 37 4 $5,000,00
Note Rinne isn't on the list yet cause his contract starts next year. Comparing top 20 to top 10 just because you need 3x the dman as goalies. But relatively speaking, the payrates are quite similar. Basically a good goalie still gets paid like a good goalie.
So your list shows a bunch of low end goalies that nobody wanted to pay anything for and aren't doing much to help their teams out plus a few pricey UFAs that ARE helping their teams get into the playoffs? Schneider falls into neither category being relatively young and Vancouver has let him play some of the toughest games this year (Boston, Chicago, NJ) where he has been outstanding. So despite Varlamov's return being "the exception to the rule", I'll suggest that Schneider is a fairly exceptional young goalie, so I expect his return to reflect that.
Yes thats exactly what i am Showing.....
Lot of team was in need of a goalie since last deadline....between all of them..only Colorado did pay the price for a young goalie! All other team preferred a cheap to acquire goalie option.
What i am showing is according to the past judgement of many GM, a team is more likely to prefer a second rate cheap UFA goalie than giving important asset for a potential young elite one.
Are they right or wrong? I am not qualified enough to go against them ...but my guess is most GM think they are right.
Some team had a relative success with cheap second rate UFA...Phoenix, Florida, San José, Colorado with Giguere
Some teams didnt had succcess: Tampa (Note that Roloson is not that Cheap), Toronto
Some team had a relative success with cheap second rate UFA...Phoenix, Florida, San José, Colorado with Giguere
Some teams didnt had succcess: Tampa (Note that Roloson is not that Cheap), Toronto
Agree but more often than not, these "success" are one season. I.e. Anderson with COL (and again this year after being pretty bad last year). SJS success is questionable at this point given Niemi's recent play and they also double'd up so the ended up paying ~5mil for goalies anyways (last season). Also in the case of COL, it was unexpected given they traded for what they thought was a franchise goalie (example of how bad this could go but it was rumor'd that Schneider was plan A, the 'nucks just weren't interested in trading with a division rival).
Accepting a paycut to play for a certain team doesn't change the market much. Otherwise you can use examples like Burrows taking 2 mil to stay with the 'nucks and argue any 2way winger that scores 30 goal is worth 2mil. They are exception to the rule. Nabby went oversea when the market was flooded (in an offseason where goalie value was lower). Remember thats what Chicago won the cup with an average goalie. When Boston won the cup due Thomas and Van had another Vezina finalist, goalies value jump'd up. Look at Rinne's contract, that puts top end goalies pay competitive to that of other positions. Also Col/Was trade happened that off season. The same time that it was reported the 'nucks were offered a top 9 forward and the 11th pick before the deal happened for Cory.
I.e.
Dman vs Goalie
1. Weber, Shea » D NAS 26 1 $7,500,000
2. Campbell, Brian » D FLA 32 8 $7,142,875
3. Doughty, Drew » D LAK 22 8 $7,000,000
4. Chara, Zdeno » D BOS 34 7 $6,916,667
5. Bouwmeester, Jay » D CGY 28 5 $6,680,000
6. Boyle, Dan » D SAN 35 6 $6,666,667
7. Phaneuf, Dion » D TOR 26 6 $6,500,000
8. Redden, Wade » D NYR 34 6 $6,500,000
9. Timonen, Kimmo » D PHI 36 6 $6,333,333
10. Lidstrom, Nicklas » D DET 41 1 $6,200,000
11. Seabrook, Brent » D CHI 26 5 $5,800,000
12. Markov, Andrei » D MTL 33 3 $5,750,000
13. Visnovsky, Lubomir » D ANA 35 5 $5,600,000
14. Keith, Duncan » D CHI 28 13 $5,538,462
15. Gonchar, Sergei » D OTT 37 3 $5,500,000
16. Wisniewski, James » D CLB 28 6 $5,500,000
17. Green, Mike » D WAS 26 4 $5,250,000
18. Yandle, Keith » D PHO 25 5 $5,250,000
19. Byfuglien, Dustin » D WIN 26 5 $5,200,000
20. Rozsival, Michal » D PHO 33 4 $5,000,000
1. Lundqvist, Henrik » G NYR 29 6 $6,875,000
2. Ward, Cam » G CAR 27 6 $6,300,000
3. Miller, Ryan » G BUF 31 5 $6,250,000
4. Backstrom, Niklas » G MIN 34 4 $6,000,000
5. Kiprusoff, Miikka » G CGY 35 6 $5,833,333
6. Bryzgalov, Ilya » G PHI 31 9 $5,666,667
7. Huet, Cristobal » G CHI 36 4 $5,625,000
8. Luongo, Roberto » G VAN 32 12 $5,333,333
9. Brodeur, Martin » G NJD 39 6 $5,200,000
10. Thomas, Tim » G BOS 37 4 $5,000,00
Note Rinne isn't on the list yet cause his contract starts next year. Comparing top 20 to top 10 just because you need 3x the dman as goalies. But relatively speaking, the payrates are quite similar. Basically a good goalie still gets paid like a good goalie.
Thats a good work, it would be interesting to compare with forward as well. The top 9 most paid center all get more than Lundqvist.
Rinne will be there next year, but Brodeur and Huertwill probably be off the list, the top defenseman will change as well....
I dont find the pay rate Similar, i didnt compile the average, but the median salary of a #01 goalie is 5 750 000$ while the median salary of a top 20 defenseman is 6 000 000$
Any way i look at these number, i only see defensemen being paid more, even if some look at it give just a slight advantage to Defenseman.
Lot of team was in need of a goalie since last deadline....between all of them..only Colorado did pay the price for a young goalie! All other team preferred a cheap to acquire goalie option.
What i am showing is according to the past judgement of many GM, a team is more likely to prefer a second rate cheap UFA goalie than giving important asset for a potential young elite one.
Are they right or wrong? I am not qualified enough to go against them ...but my guess is most GM think they are right.
Some team had a relative success with cheap second rate UFA...Phoenix, Florida, San José, Colorado with Giguere
Some teams didnt had succcess: Tampa (Note that Roloson is not that Cheap), Toronto
We have different takes on this then. You see a bunch of GMs who are willingly choosing to gamble with 2nd/3rd tier goalies rather than invest big in a better option.
I see a bunch of GMs who looked at the market and found there were no better options available beyond a couple of high priced UFAs (who got their big contracts btw) so resorted to what they could get. And the results have definitely been mixed for these GMs. Do I expect every goalie will fetch the same return as Schneider? No. Do I think he will fetch more than that pile of journeymen? I do, but I guess like you I'll just have to wait until it actually happens to see who had the right of it.
Judging by this thread, some people here will pee their pants once they see the return Schneider will command.
There are young goalies available, then there is Cory Schneider. He really is a step above. Whoever gets him will be happy they paid the price in the end though.
Not just Canuck homers anymore, this kid is the real deal and most people know it.
It will be a solid return, some goalies do have value folks, but won't be till the draft.
What do TO and Van fans think of a deal that would look something like this:
G Corey Schnieder
2nd/3rd Round Pick
D Cody Franson
G Jonas Gustavsson
1st Round Pick
Canucks get a big, young, right handed d (BC Boy I might add) and a reasonable nhl backup for Lu that can be resigned if he's willing to re-up for under a mil in the offseason. Also gives Gillis 2 firsts to work with in this draft.
Toronto gets the goalie of their dreams and gives them a shot at the playoffs this year. Not to mention a pretty decent tandem of Schnieds/Reimer going forward if Reimer continues to develop.
What do TO and Van fans think of a deal that would look something like this:
G Corey Schnieder
2nd/3rd Round Pick
D Cody Franson
G Jonas Gustavsson
1st Round Pick
Canucks get a big, young, right handed d (BC Boy I might add) and a reasonable nhl backup for Lu that can be resigned if he's willing to re-up for under a mil in the offseason. Also gives Gillis 2 firsts to work with in this draft.
Toronto gets the goalie of their dreams and gives them a shot at the playoffs this year. Not to mention a pretty decent tandem of Schnieds/Reimer going forward if Reimer continues to develop.
Thoughts?
This is a reasonable trade.
And for Palindrom, I think NHL General Managers will put a higher value than you suggest on Cory Schneider if for only the simple reason that they are able to do rudimentary math.
Do the math.
If your team is middle of the pack in the NHL, you give up on average 30 shots per game. St. Louis is the best in the league with 26.2 SA/G, Ottawa is worst with 32.2. Tampa is 15th with 30.3 SA/G.
If your team is middle of the pack offensively, you are scoring on average about 2.6 goals per game. Carolina is 15th at 2.61 G/G. So if you are average offensively, your defense and goal tending combined have to give up less than 2.6 GA/G.
If your goal tender has a .900 SV% then, with 30 SA/G your team is, on average, going to give up 3 goals per game. You can't win in the NHL giving up 3.00 GA/G.
But if your goalie has a .925 SV% you are only going to give up 2.25 GA/G. You can win giving up 2.25 GA/G.
However, if you improved your defense so that you are as good as St. Louis with your .900 SV% goalie, you are still going to give up 2.63 goals against per game. That's still not enough to win consistently.
But to have the best team defense in the league, you have to either have at least 4 elite level defensemen, or you have to systematically trap, trap, trap. And 2.63 GA/G is still not enough to win consistently.
We have different takes on this then. You see a bunch of GMs who are willingly choosing to gamble with 2nd/3rd tier goalies rather than invest big in a better option.
I see a bunch of GMs who looked at the market and found there were no better options available beyond a couple of high priced UFAs (who got their big contracts btw) so resorted to what they could get. And the results have definitely been mixed for these GMs. Do I expect every goalie will fetch the same return as Schneider? No. Do I think he will fetch more than that pile of journeymen? I do, but I guess like you I'll just have to wait until it actually happens to see who had the right of it.
So are you telling me Schneider, Rask or Bernier were not better option available (for the asking price) when these GMs looked at the market?
Schneider is not available unless its a very compelling offer. Canucks turned down Colorado's 11th overall pick last spring.
Bernier may be available, but LA also turned down Colorado last spring.
So Schneider is avaible for the right price, but every GMs looking at a goalie in the last 3 years judged there was a better option elsewhere than paying the price Vancouver want for him.
Judging by the number of Schneider proposal, 5-15 every week since the last 3 years, either he is avaible, or the peoples making these proposal lack judgement about his availability.
Bernier may be available, but LA also turned down Colorado last spring.
Not to mention Bernier hasn't really been that impressive in the NHL.
-Rask has shown in the past to be as good or better than Thomas (although Thomas has deffinitly reclaimed that position and Rask has done significantly worse lately).
-Schneider has proven for two season to be as good as Luongo.
-Bernier hasn't shown to be nearly as good as Quick.
So Schneider is avaible for the right price, but every GMs looking at a goalie in the last 3 years judged there was a better option elsewhere than paying the price Vancouver want for him.
Judging by the number of Schneider proposal, 5-15 every week since the last 3 years, either he is avaible, or the peoples making these proposal lack judgement about his availability.
During an intermission a couple weeks ago, when asked if he had been getting any phonecalls for Schneider, Gillis responded that he's been getting calls for him for two years now. He inferred that he's not interested in trading Schneider yet, so he's intentionally set the asking price above what any GM is reasonably willing to pay. This way he can allow Schneider to continue to develop and appreciate in value, as well as have two starting calibre goalies on the roster.
My guess is that he'll trade Schneider at the draft after spending two years working the phones and driving his value up. Whatever return we get for him I'll be sad to see him go. He is a great team player, very grounded in interviews, does a wicked Janick Hansen impression, as well as being extremely skilled. Whatever team gets him will be very lucky, regardless of the price they pay.
During an intermission a couple weeks ago, when asked if he had been getting any phonecalls for Schneider, Gillis responded that he's been getting calls for him for two years now. He inferred that he's not interested in trading Schneider yet, so he's intentionally set the asking price above what any GM is reasonably willing to pay. This way he can allow Schneider to continue to develop and appreciate in value, as well as have two starting calibre goalies on the roster.
My guess is that he'll trade Schneider at the draft after spending two years working the phones and driving his value up. Whatever return we get for him I'll be sad to see him go. He is a great team player, very grounded in interviews, does a wicked Janick Hansen impression, as well as being extremely skilled. Whatever team gets him will be very lucky, regardless of the price they pay.
After the deadline, or after the season, i plan to start a thread about the value of Schneider summer 2010 vs summer 2011 vs Summer 2012.
I invite you to join the discussion then, i know i am often considered a big troll, but i like to consider myself as someone who oblige other to think deeper. And once in a while something worthy come out of these discussion
After the deadline, or after the season, i plan to start a thread about the value of Schneider summer 2010 vs summer 2011 vs Summer 2012.
I invite you to join the discussion then, i know i am often considered a big troll, but i like to consider myself as someone who oblige other to think deeper. And once in a while something worthy come out of these discussion
I don't think you're a troll, I just think you put far too much emphasis on numbers (age, rfa years, stats) compared to the human aspect of hockey (talent, personality, demeanor). You often come across as looking at players as if they're stocks, failing to consider the value of their talent.
