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#61|Feb. 25, 2012|Flyers at Flames| (Part 2)

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02-26-2012, 06:59 PM
  #101
Bernie Parent 1974
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
I'm all about Bryzgalov but that second goal sucked.
it did suck. i blamed in order: the D for backing in. Bryz for not getting it. shared blame.
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
bottom line is I'm likin the fact that laviolette is startin bryz every game and not pulling him. thats how you establish confidence in your guys not only for him but it sends a message that he's the one so play for each other.
totally agreed.

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02-26-2012, 07:00 PM
  #102
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This game felt like the lowest lows and the highest highs.

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02-26-2012, 07:02 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
You seen to have some kind of premeditating bias with giving Bryz a break, hence your second paragraph, so I'm not going to argue with you. Each goal should be reviewed on its own unless it's a trend. The trend here is poor defensive positioning, address that first.
Well, you're wrong. Go look up my posts on Antero Niittymaki and Roman Cechmanek. I'm more than fair to goaltenders, hold defensemen to pretty high standards and have defended Bryz plenty. Anyone left from the pre-Martin Biron era could speak to that.

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02-26-2012, 07:05 PM
  #104
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had Bryz given up Kipper's goals:

gotta make a big save & cover up for the turnover [Jake]

poor rebound control

can't stop deflections [Hartnell]

need to find the puck through screens

poor glove positioning on 2 shootout goals

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02-26-2012, 07:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
aren't they taught to stand up @ the blue line ?
especially if you are not confident in front of your goalie.
Well, yes. You're SUPPOSED to stand them up. As a goalie you prefer it. Even if the guy manages to deke the Dman out, he's already on top of the goalie and doesn't have time to do much with it. But if you just back up in to the corner, place the puck down on a tee and let him rip from 15 feet, the result is rarely good.

Bryz should have been further out at the top of the crease, to be sure, but the D both botched that very badly. I would never have tolerated that from the 12 yr olds I used to coach.

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02-26-2012, 07:20 PM
  #106
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Well, you're wrong. Go look up my posts on Antero Niittymaki and Roman Cechmanek. I'm more than fair to goaltenders, hold defensemen to pretty high standards and have defended Bryz plenty. Anyone left from the pre-Martin Biron era could speak to that.
You said that Bryz gets excuses for goals because he can't see shots.

That's the premeditation. That's the past. That's something that exists in your head, and clearly bothers you.

You then inversely applied that to this situation: He saw this one, so it's definitely his fault.

That's bias. You disregard the obvious defensive error to place the blame entirely on Bryzgalov because he could see the puck.

And I don't care about your posting history. I wasn't making a personal attack, guy, we're talking hockey. I don't even know who you are around here, and I don't care (unless you're JXC, but you're not). Your opinion of Niitty or Roman doesn't apply to Bryz. Anyone who liked Niitty is alright in my book, too, so please don't take my words as dickish. I just want this team to get better, and I'm sure you do, too.

Bryz didn't play that shot well, but the defensive breakdown caused the scoring chance. You treat the disease, not the symptoms, and at this point it's pretty obvious that the defense is playing just as poorly as the goaltending.


Last edited by Bort Sampson: 02-26-2012 at 07:26 PM.
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02-26-2012, 07:27 PM
  #107
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Well, yes. You're SUPPOSED to stand them up. As a goalie you prefer it. Even if the guy manages to deke the Dman out, he's already on top of the goalie and doesn't have time to do much with it. But if you just back up in to the corner, place the puck down on a tee and let him rip from 15 feet, the result is rarely good.

Bryz should have been further out at the top of the crease, to be sure, but the D both botched that very badly. I would never have tolerated that from the 12 yr olds I used to coach.
completely agree. shared blame. anybody who claims 'bad goal by Bryz' is giving that poor D a pass. i want Bryz further out, too ... but i can't remember the last time one of OUR forwards cruised in, and had the seas part like that.

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02-26-2012, 07:44 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
Your reply to me was about defensive positioning, wasn't it? Did you just abandon that opinion or what?

You people hate Bryzgalov. That's great. He's a good goaltender in a bad situation. He's on a new team that plays bad defense. Bob is also struggling. He was here last year in front of a solid defense and looked good. He looks bad this year because they're playing poor defense. This is the way it's going to be for anyone the Flyers bring in until they tighten up their defense.
It still is about defensive positioning. They gave their goaltender a clear look at a shot and he didn't stop it. If either defender didn't step up AND screened Bryzgalov then I can see where they could be at fault. Both D men took away the pass and forced a shot from a stoppable range. My opinion hasn't changed.

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02-26-2012, 07:46 PM
  #109
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It still is about defensive positioning. They gave their goaltender a clear look at a shot and he didn't stop it. If either defender didn't step up AND screened Bryzgalov then I can see where they could be at fault. Both D men took away the pass and forced a shot from a stoppable range. My opinion hasn't changed.
Yeah, from about 15 feet away, very good defensive job.

That play was textbook poor defense. The Flames did exactly what you're supposed to do on a 3-on-2 (open players draw defensemen to the outside, puck carrier goes down the middle). I agree to disagree.

edit: did you play for the Icedogs?


Last edited by Bort Sampson: 02-26-2012 at 07:57 PM. Reason: edited out the mean
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02-26-2012, 07:51 PM
  #110
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Reese implies they don't want the D to surrender shots like that: http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...5041313047-711

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02-26-2012, 07:53 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
edit: did you play for the Icedogs?
They were a summer elite team in CT. Played with them a few years.

In the end, I think we all can agree that on that 2nd goal the forwards were nowhere to be found and that's unacceptable.

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02-26-2012, 07:57 PM
  #112
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They were a summer elite team in CT. Played with them a few years.

In the end, I think we all can agree that on that 2nd goal the forwards were nowhere to be found and that's unacceptable.
Ah, they were a decent local team in PA for a while, thought you might be a former player I knew.

And absolutely to the second. Schenn was sealed up ice, Voracek was caught deep, and JvR was out to lunch.

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02-26-2012, 08:17 PM
  #113
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It still is about defensive positioning. They gave their goaltender a clear look at a shot and he didn't stop it. If either defender didn't step up AND screened Bryzgalov then I can see where they could be at fault. Both D men took away the pass and forced a shot from a stoppable range. My opinion hasn't changed.
They backed in so far that Stajan carried the puck from the blueline to the slot and had all that time to wind up uncontested. It's not acceptable and it's not a 'stoppable range' shot to let them take an unhurried slapshot from 20 feet out.

Yes, Bryz could have cut the angle, and yes, it would've been nice if any of the forwards had applied some backside pressure, but you don't just let a guy walk in all the way and take a slapshot. At very least, you go after him at the last second to hit him and force him into a wrister....

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02-26-2012, 08:37 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
You said that Bryz gets excuses for goals because he can't see shots.

That's the premeditation. That's the past. That's something that exists in your head, and clearly bothers you.

You then inversely applied that to this situation: He saw this one, so it's definitely his fault.

That's bias. You disregard the obvious defensive error to place the blame entirely on Bryzgalov because he could see the puck.

And I don't care about your posting history. I wasn't making a personal attack, guy, we're talking hockey. I don't even know who you are around here, and I don't care (unless you're JXC, but you're not). Your opinion of Niitty or Roman doesn't apply to Bryz. Anyone who liked Niitty is alright in my book, too, so please don't take my words as dickish. I just want this team to get better, and I'm sure you do, too.

Bryz didn't play that shot well, but the defensive breakdown caused the scoring chance. You treat the disease, not the symptoms, and at this point it's pretty obvious that the defense is playing just as poorly as the goaltending.
I wouldn't say anything that's been said "bothers" me. In fact, I'm the one telling people that the team was never good enough in front of Bryz personnel-wise, telling anyone who doesn't want to admit it that they had their hopes up when they drank Ed Snider's kool-aid and thought we were going back to the Cup because we had a bunch of rookies get off to hot starts, and looked great in December after losing Pronger. People wanted Carter and Richards out the door ASAP, and the results are a team that's a disaster in front of a goaltender, regardless if he's good or bad.

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02-26-2012, 08:57 PM
  #115
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I wouldn't say anything that's been said "bothers" me. In fact, I'm the one telling people that the team was never good enough in front of Bryz personnel-wise, telling anyone who doesn't want to admit it that they had their hopes up when they drank Ed Snider's kool-aid and thought we were going back to the Cup because we had a bunch of rookies get off to hot starts, and looked great in December after losing Pronger. People wanted Carter and Richards out the door ASAP, and the results are a team that's a disaster in front of a goaltender, regardless if he's good or bad.
I completely agree with everything you just said, I think our opinions are more similar than not (other than that goal).

This team is good, and considering what they're going through (over reliance on rookies, no Pronger, inconsistent defense, bad goaltending), the situation they're going through is not that bad. However, improvement is always necessary. Timonen's gone after next year, Pronger's likely gone already. What's really disheartening is seeing Coburn and Meszaros: they're still better than Carle, but have not progressed over the last 2 seasons.

It's a shame they're in this transition phase, as right now, we're seeing Timonen at the top of his game.

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02-26-2012, 09:06 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
had Bryz given up Kipper's goals:

gotta make a big save & cover up for the turnover [Jake]

poor rebound control

can't stop deflections [Hartnell]

need to find the puck through screens

poor glove positioning on 2 shootout goals

Holy **** are you serious? Those first two goals Bryz gave up are ALL on him. When the opposing fans are giving you a mock cheer that pretty much means you really ****ed up.

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02-26-2012, 09:20 PM
  #117
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Holy **** are you serious? Those first two goals Bryz gave up are ALL on him.
i think you misread. that list was the list of goals Kipper let in.
had Bryz let them in, he would have gotten roasted [again] for:

-not making a big save & cover up for the turnover [on Jake's goal]
-poor rebound control [goal that he didn't get all of it, and let it bounce off the defenseman and in]
-not stopping deflections [off Hartnell]
-not finding the puck through screens
-having poor glove positioning on 2 shootout goals

yet an elite goalie like Kipper lets them in, and they're 'tough breaks'

the point is that those goals DO go in. the fact that Bryz has been sub-par this year, doesn't mean every single goal that goes in are 'All on him'

in fact, there were 3 breakdowns on goal 1 & 2 on goal 2.
team effort.

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02-27-2012, 02:36 AM
  #118
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How is the weather over there?
One word my friend......dismal!

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02-27-2012, 04:52 AM
  #119
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Briere was awful defensively, including in the overtime when you need to get your **** together.

The Flyers only allowed 6 shots in the first and were only hemmed in their own zone once (that I can remember).

A lot of the miscommunication will come from the two new guys on D. I was pretty happy with the team's performance in their own zone, aside from a couple bonehead plays (the short-handed goal, especially).
After having slept on the game a bit, I'm not quite as critical anymore. I do think that if we'd met a team with better offense/a Calgary on the top of their game, they would have capitalized on our defensive errors a lot more than what the Flames were able to do though.

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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
They need to clean up some aspects of their game if they are going to beat San Jose. It's been difficult enough in this stretch and couple with the recent history against the Sharks, doesn't bode well if they can't figure out issues starting with the PK.
Definitely. The Sharks are having a tough time right now though, hopefully they'll continue to stumble when we face them.

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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
How is an open shot from the slot on a 3-on-2 a "high percentage save"? Say what you will about Bryz not making that save, but that's a really, really good scoring opportunity, and a non-scorer was able to score.

Timonen wasn't the one who played that poorly. He could have made an outstanding play to seal the puck carrier and right winger, but that's expecting a hell of a lot.

Kimmo played the 3-on-2 well: the defensemen should essentially create two separate 2-on-1s, effectively allowing them to cover the pass and partially block the shooting lane. Kimmo does that, whereas Meszaros skates backwards with his stick out. That's why Stajan went towards the left winger: that side was completely open for either a pass or shot.

Defense is largely based on positioning, and positioning is heavily affected by angles. Meszaros skated with the rush, took an odd angle back, and overcompensated for the pass. That's why Stajan coasted into the slot. Bryz didn't make the save, but he didn't hand them the goal.
I agree that Meszaros shouldn't have backed off as much. If at least one of our forwards had done some semblance of proper back checking it would have made it a lot easier for him to stand up, however. The shot was from a good spot, but it was a pretty poor shot iirc. I think Bryzgalov definitely wants that one back.

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Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
I completely agree with everything you just said, I think our opinions are more similar than not (other than that goal).

This team is good, and considering what they're going through (over reliance on rookies, no Pronger, inconsistent defense, bad goaltending), the situation they're going through is not that bad. However, improvement is always necessary. Timonen's gone after next year, Pronger's likely gone already. What's really disheartening is seeing Coburn and Meszaros: they're still better than Carle, but have not progressed over the last 2 seasons.

It's a shame they're in this transition phase, as right now, we're seeing Timonen at the top of his game.
I agree with this as well, even if Timonen has had a few rough games lately. I still have some hope for Coburn and Meszaros to step up their play. It would be nice if they could do so soon though. If Coburn steps up in the playoffs again, a lot will be forgiven however, just like with Brière and JvR...

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