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Will Subban be as good as Karlsson?

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Old
02-25-2012, 11:42 PM
  #226
EllertoKostitsynGoal
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Originally Posted by Face81 View Post
You had to come here and show off. Karma ****ed you up.

That said, i think subban is great deffensively and will be better offensively.. now about karlson, i hardly watch any sens game so i can't realy say anything.
Better offensively than he is now? Sure. Better than Karlsson? Even I don't think that.

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02-25-2012, 11:51 PM
  #227
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Oiler's fan here so this is a totally unbiased opinion but I've got to go with Karlsson on this one and to be honest, I'm really not getting some of the arguments i've been reading here from both sides. First of all I will admit that Subban is the better defensive dman out of the two and I don't agree with those who argue that. In saying that I'll also say that Karlsson is not near as bad defensively as many people in here claim he is, and even though Subban may be better in his own end, that doesn't mean he is an elite shut down dman by no means, far from it actually. It's not like we're talking about a Robyn Regehr here or anything. So the difference in their defensive games is not as big of a margin as some in here believe.

Secondly, as I said before, Subban is not an elite shutdown defenceman. Karlsson, however, is an elite offensive one. He is averaging close to a point a game and is top 10 in scoring in the entire league. This is something you just don't see very often from a defenceman. You can argue all you want that you'd rather take the defenceman with the better defensive upside but the fact of the matter is, Karlsson's offensive skills far exceeds Subban's defensive talents.

I'm not gonna deny that Subban can be an offensive threat either. He's shown how good he can be on the powerplay and like many already stated in here, I also believe he is better offensively than he has shown this season and will only get better as he matures and becomes more experienced. What I don't get is why some people think that Subban will improve offensively but won't acknowledge that Karlsson can improve defensively. Especially seeing how he is younger than Subban. This time last year I saw Subban in the same light as most of you see Karlsson. I never would have thought that Subban would have improved defensively as much as he has in just one year, so why is it so hard to believe that Karlsson can do the same?

One last thing. I just got a question for those saying that they'd rather keep Subban than trade him for a guy like Karlsson just because they'd rather have a better 2-way dman. What if Karlsson had been drafted by Montreal and was having the same season he is now including being top 10 in the entire league in scoring. And lets say Subban was drafted by Ottawa and was at the same point in his career and playing the same rold as he is now only with the Sens. Would you still rather have a player like Subban in your lineup, enough so that you'd trade Karlsson for him knowing what you know about the 2?
1- You haven't seen Robyn in a while heh ?
2- Subban as you see with the corsi...Could be considered one of the best in his own end (that doesn't mean he's over guy's like Weber and co. Cause he's not there.)
3-Seeing Karlsson play tonight reinforced the opinion of Karlsson being bad in D. He gave 3 goal's yet got 3 scored. (One being on him only and one scored by him(Other being secondary assists..)
4- About Karlsson being in MTL... I guess it's normal for a fanbase to value their franchises player's over other's. So yes, I think some may say EK over PK if you made the switch(And it would be the same for Ottawa i'm pretty sure.)

But what separate's EK from PK to me is that PK is such an overwhelming force, he wasn't supposed to make the league because of his bad D play, Yet... He proved every one wrong. This kid has the drive to be a winner, To win it all. Been a long time i dindt see a guy with this much compete level( And we have Gionta, Cole, Plekanec..) he just need's a little maturity...
Yet EK has him too all the tool's to suceed with so much talent. If he could fill out a bit and play under a more defensive coach he'd be a real stud (well.. even better one **)

Both are really good dman, Its unbelievable how many real quality Dman there has been in the last 4 year's . (Lot's of #1) Pietrangelo, Doughty, Myers(Pick it up big man...), P.K., EK, Hedman, Larsson....... AND NOW ? THE DRAFT COMING IS VERY DEEP IN D. And we could get 4 to 6 number 1 dman in this draft. UNREAL.

FUTURE SURE SEEM'S BRIGHT AND FULL OF TALENT.

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02-26-2012, 01:00 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Wait, what? I thought games played was the second tie-breaker, after number of goals (and third being whoever scored first that season). We are talking about individual scoring here, and not team standings, right?
I worded it wrong. I meant to say in the particular scenario I was talking about. Not scenarios. Goals scored is the 1st tie breaker.

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02-26-2012, 03:52 AM
  #229
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I've told Habs friends of mine since day 1 that EK has one of the highest IQ's in the NHL. Subban on the other hand doesn't.. He's very normal.. He lacks Creativity, is too excited on the ice. Reminds me of a little puppy !!!

Ask any GM in the league who would they take. And you got your answer.

Karlsson is also a year younger then PK, was drafted at 157lbs and is now 180lbs.. at only 21... give him 2 more years and he'll be at 195 of pure muscles.

Subban is overrated in montreal IMO and I watch every Habs game. He's a good TWD, lacks imagination and decision making. You can see that he's coached, very robotic, unlike Karlsson, has a natural body flow. PK Possesses an overrated one timer, just really cranks it up high for show. Isn't accurate and venomous. Terrible attitude, selfish... Every team would want him though, he's young, strong and energetic. Buts will never be a Norris Nominee or in the same league as a EK.

Hockey IQ is very important people...

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02-26-2012, 05:49 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by PablitoArg View Post
I've told Habs friends of mine since day 1 that EK has one of the highest IQ's in the NHL. Subban on the other hand doesn't.. He's very normal.. He lacks Creativity, is too excited on the ice. Reminds me of a little puppy !!!

Ask any GM in the league who would they take. And you got your answer.

Karlsson is also a year younger then PK, was drafted at 157lbs and is now 180lbs.. at only 21... give him 2 more years and he'll be at 195 of pure muscles.

Subban is overrated in montreal IMO and I watch every Habs game. He's a good TWD, lacks imagination and decision making. You can see that he's coached, very robotic, unlike Karlsson, has a natural body flow. PK Possesses an overrated one timer, just really cranks it up high for show. Isn't accurate and venomous. Terrible attitude, selfish... Every team would want him though, he's young, strong and energetic. Buts will never be a Norris Nominee or in the same league as a EK.

Hockey IQ is very important people...
can't say that i agree with everything you said - especially about your description of subban, but everybody assumes that karlsson will have seasons like this for the rest of his career. the way things have been clicking in ottawa this season, it wouldn't surprise me if this is his career best. remember when doughty would be the best defenseman in the league for years to come?

also, of course you can tell pk is being coached. that's because he is. he was flashier, more creative and arguably better last season, when he wasn't as coached as much as he is now.

yes karlsson has higher hockey IQ and will always be better offensively than subban nobody is debating that, in fact the op's question is flawed as they are not, and will never be, the same type of defensmen. i have no doubt in my mind subban will always be better in his own zone and more physical while karlsson will always be better offensively. this is where the chelios/coffey comparison is a good one

HF is very much a 'what have you done for me lately' place, for example how everybody forgot how good subban was last season and base the rest of his career on a disappointing (based on crazy expectation to begin with) season. so who knows what will happen next year, or the year after....

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02-26-2012, 09:58 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Better offensively than he is now? Sure. Better than Karlsson? Even I don't think that.
i meant better than he is now, it does sound a little wierd sorry. Like I said i don't iknow karlson much so i can't compare both. What i do know tho is that Subban will get better.

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02-26-2012, 10:05 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
1- You haven't seen Robyn in a while heh ?:laugh:
2- Subban as you see with the corsi...Could be considered one of the best in his own end (that doesn't mean he's over guy's like Weber and co. Cause he's not there.)
3-Seeing Karlsson play tonight reinforced the opinion of Karlsson being bad in D. He gave 3 goal's yet got 3 scored. (One being on him only and one scored by him(Other being secondary assists..)
4- About Karlsson being in MTL... I guess it's normal for a fanbase to value their franchises player's over other's. So yes, I think some may say EK over PK if you made the switch(And it would be the same for Ottawa i'm pretty sure.)
But what separate's EK from PK to me is that PK is such an overwhelming force, he wasn't supposed to make the league because of his bad D play, Yet... He proved every one wrong. This kid has the drive to be a winner, To win it all. Been a long time i dindt see a guy with this much compete level( And we have Gionta, Cole, Plekanec..) he just need's a little maturity...
Yet EK has him too all the tool's to suceed with so much talent. If he could fill out a bit and play under a more defensive coach he'd be a real stud (well.. even better one **)

Both are really good dman, Its unbelievable how many real quality Dman there has been in the last 4 year's . (Lot's of #1) Pietrangelo, Doughty, Myers(Pick it up big man...), P.K., EK, Hedman, Larsson....... AND NOW ? THE DRAFT COMING IS VERY DEEP IN D. And we could get 4 to 6 number 1 dman in this draft. UNREAL.

FUTURE SURE SEEM'S BRIGHT AND FULL OF TALENT.
Yeah I haven't seen Regehr play as much since he left Calgary. I know he was playing great in Buffalo at the start of the season but I haven't heard much about him since. I definitely should have used a better example like Chara or Weber there.

You also make a good point about fanbases picking their own guy, but just think of it as an outsider looking in so to speak, like me. Lets say Karlsson is with the Sens and PK is with another team instead of Montreal. Who would you take on your team knowing what you know about the 2? Even though alot of you guys won't admit it, I'm willing to bet 95% of you would take Karlsson without question. I'm not trying to ***** on Subban here. IMO he will be a very good dman in this league for many years and I'm not guaranteeing that a few years down the road Subban won't establish himself as the better of the 2, all I'm trying to say is that from what we've seen from both of these guys in their young careers, I don't understand how anyone could say they'd take Subban over Karlsson at the moment.

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02-26-2012, 10:06 AM
  #233
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can't say that i agree with everything you said - especially about your description of subban, but everybody assumes that karlsson will have seasons like this for the rest of his career. the way things have been clicking in ottawa this season, it wouldn't surprise me if this is his career best. remember when doughty would be the best defenseman in the league for years to come?

also, of course you can tell pk is being coached. that's because he is. he was flashier, more creative and arguably better last season, when he wasn't as coached as much as he is now.

yes karlsson has higher hockey IQ and will always be better offensively than subban nobody is debating that, in fact the op's question is flawed as they are not, and will never be, the same type of defensmen. i have no doubt in my mind subban will always be better in his own zone and more physical while karlsson will always be better offensively. this is where the chelios/coffey comparison is a good one

HF is very much a 'what have you done for me lately' place, for example how everybody forgot how good subban was last season and base the rest of his career on a disappointing (based on crazy expectation to begin with) season. so who knows what will happen next year, or the year after....
Even last year Karlsson had much better numbers...
Sure Montreal is having a terrible year, so was ottawa last year.. yet EK posted great numbers for a 20 year old.... 50 Something points...

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02-26-2012, 11:31 AM
  #234
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Karlsson is a far superior player.
Period.

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02-26-2012, 11:54 AM
  #235
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Karlsson is a far superior player.
Period.
Offensively he's far superior yes.. I won't agree he's better defensively though.

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02-26-2012, 12:01 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by PablitoArg View Post
Even last year Karlsson had much better numbers...
Sure Montreal is having a terrible year, so was ottawa last year.. yet EK posted great numbers for a 20 year old.... 50 Something points...
You simply can't evaluate defencemen by thier numbers only, you can't. Even fowards you can't.

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02-26-2012, 12:13 PM
  #237
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I'll pass judgement after next season.

If the PP can get back on track and Subban can fetch from 40 to 50 points a year in average, coupled with his defensive play and his dominant physical presence, I'd take him over a 60-70 points offensive minded defenseman, I think. However, this year, it is a no contest. Karlsson is currently playing above a PPG pace and he's simply dominant on the ice while Subban hasn't necessarily been noticed for the good reasons this season. Hence why I rather wait another year before judging who's the best, because coming into this season, I'd have taken Subban 10 times out of 10.

Things can change quickly.

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02-26-2012, 01:23 PM
  #238
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Yeah I haven't seen Regehr play as much since he left Calgary. I know he was playing great in Buffalo at the start of the season but I haven't heard much about him since. I definitely should have used a better example like Chara or Weber there.

You also make a good point about fanbases picking their own guy, but just think of it as an outsider looking in so to speak, like me. Lets say Karlsson is with the Sens and PK is with another team instead of Montreal. Who would you take on your team knowing what you know about the 2? Even though alot of you guys won't admit it, I'm willing to bet 95% of you would take Karlsson without question. I'm not trying to ***** on Subban here. IMO he will be a very good dman in this league for many years and I'm not guaranteeing that a few years down the road Subban won't establish himself as the better of the 2, all I'm trying to say is that from what we've seen from both of these guys in their young careers, I don't understand how anyone could say they'd take Subban over Karlsson at the moment.
I saw Karlsson played a few times. The guy played like a forward. He will go around the net. He will put himself next to the goalie, He will frequently position himself near the faceoff circle for a one timer. He will pinch at any opportunity. It's no wonder he got so many point this season. Just wait until the playoff when all team will tighten up their defense and wait for their chance. Karlsson will make Ottawa lose more games in the playoff than winning.

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02-26-2012, 08:01 PM
  #239
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If you guys think PK can improve offensively, why can't Karlsson improve defensively? In my opinion, Karlsson is better defensively right now, but that's debatable.

Some of the logic here is so flawed.

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02-26-2012, 08:15 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
If you guys think PK can improve offensively, why can't Karlsson improve defensively? In my opinion, Karlsson is better defensively right now, but that's debatable.

Some of the logic here is so flawed.
Unless I missed it or I have that person on my IL I didn't see anyone in this thread saying Karlsson couldn't improve defensively.. Some of us are just saying we think Subban is better defensively than Karlsson is right now but if you think otherwise that's fine.

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02-26-2012, 08:16 PM
  #241
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I'll pass judgement after next season.

If the PP can get back on track and Subban can fetch from 40 to 50 points a year in average, coupled with his defensive play and his dominant physical presence, I'd take him over a 60-70 points offensive minded defenseman, I think. However, this year, it is a no contest. Karlsson is currently playing above a PPG pace and he's simply dominant on the ice while Subban hasn't necessarily been noticed for the good reasons this season. Hence why I rather wait another year before judging who's the best, because coming into this season, I'd have taken Subban 10 times out of 10.

Things can change quickly.

This is what i'm trying to say. EK is having a serious career year. I don't think he would get anywhere near that in the future. He's shooting and every thing goes in. He does a great transition pass and the forward goes 1 on 1 and scores. It's just an overall good year.

Take out secondary passes and it's another story.

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02-26-2012, 08:19 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
If you guys think PK can improve offensively, why can't Karlsson improve defensively? In my opinion, Karlsson is better defensively right now, but that's debatable.

Some of the logic here is so flawed.
And why you think Subban cannot improve on D also ?

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02-26-2012, 08:34 PM
  #243
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Unless I missed it or I have that person on my IL I didn't see anyone in this thread saying Karlsson couldn't improve defensively.. Some of us are just saying we think Subban is better defensively than Karlsson is right now but if you think otherwise that's fine.
Fair enough.

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This is what i'm trying to say. EK is having a serious career year. I don't think he would get anywhere near that in the future. He's shooting and every thing goes in. He does a great transition pass and the forward goes 1 on 1 and scores. It's just an overall good year.

Take out secondary passes and it's another story.
2 of his last 11 assists are secondary.

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And why you think Subban cannot improve on D also ?
I didn't say that. I think both can and will improve defensively. I just feel (not to be a homer) that Erik's ceiling offensively is higher than PK's, but you're totally entitled to disagree.

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02-26-2012, 08:35 PM
  #244
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This is what i'm trying to say. EK is having a serious career year. I don't think he would get anywhere near that in the future. He's shooting and every thing goes in. He does a great transition pass and the forward goes 1 on 1 and scores. It's just an overall good year.

Take out secondary passes and it's another story.
Karlson on the habs would'nt have anything close to 65 points. Maybe 40.

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02-26-2012, 10:12 PM
  #245
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2 of his last 11 assists are secondary.
Well...Can't argue with fact's.


I didn't say that. I think both can and will improve defensively. I just feel (not to be a homer) that Erik's ceiling offensively is higher than PK's, but you're totally entitled to disagree.
And you are right. No one EVER said P.K. had a higher offensive ceiling than EK. The other way around work's too IMO.
-Level of Complete-

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Karlson on the habs would'nt have anything close to 65 points. Maybe 40.
Yep.

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02-26-2012, 10:30 PM
  #246
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Take out secondary passes and it's another story.
Since the start of this year (IE January to now) he has 5 secondary assists. 21 assists over that part, so 25% of his assists have been secondary since January.

He had 2 in December. 5 in November. 7 in October.

So that means over the course of the season so far he has, 19 secondary assists. Many of which are cause by tip-ins. Take away 19 assists and he only has a 4 point lead on the next highest defencemen. 37% of his assists are secondary assists. Take those away and he has the 5th most assists, 6 points back of the new leader.

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02-26-2012, 10:45 PM
  #247
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Martin tried turning a ferrari into a dump truck. Subban took a big step backwards this year and we lost a player that we couldn't replace.

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02-26-2012, 10:52 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by PablitoArg View Post
Even last year Karlsson had much better numbers...
Sure Montreal is having a terrible year, so was ottawa last year.. yet EK posted great numbers for a 20 year old.... 50 Something points...
So what? EK is more gifted offensively. Does this make him better? Of course not. Am I saying he's not better? Haven't said that either.

Green had seasons of 1pt/gp+ pace. He scored 31G in 68games one year! That's more than some top6 players will ever do. Does this make him better than PK or EK? I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have guessed that EK would score at a 1pt/gp pace and be 7th scoring leader of the NHL with less than 20games left to be played.
With young players like EK or PK, that have superstar written all over them, it's too early to really know how good they'll become.

I don't think EK will keep scoring at the same pace for the rest of his career. I don't think PK will score 20-30pts either. So time will tell.


Defensively however, it's another story. PK is ahead of EK.

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02-26-2012, 10:53 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Martin tried turning a ferrari into a dump truck. Subban took a big step backwards this year and we lost a player that we couldn't replace.
How did he do that exactly?
He handled him the exact same way he did last year.

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02-27-2012, 01:44 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
I didn't say that. I think both can and will improve defensively. I just feel (not to be a homer) that Erik's ceiling offensively is higher than PK's, but you're totally entitled to disagree.
this is what kills me about this thread: senators fan coming in and either misreading what we say, or just making it up.

so to re-iterate: yes, EK's offensive ceiling is higher than PK's. can you guys please stop pretending we, the collective 'we', said that now? please?

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