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[VAN/BUF] Hodgson and Sulzer for Z. Kassian and Gragnani

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Old
02-27-2012, 05:18 PM
  #226
Nostradanglus
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I've been a huge fan of Cody and it is a bitter pill to swallow that he's gone. He seemed to have the model work-ethic and character you would want in a player.

I found watching this Kassian video made me feel a little better.



What a completely different player to CoHo. He sure isn't chopped liver though; And if he brings that energy consistently and produces (hoping he reaches at least 50points/season somewhere down the track) this may well be what we needed. Throw in the reigning AHL defenceman of the year and we may come out grinners in the end.

On the flipside, we have traded a more sure-thing into two prospects who remain unproven in the NHL. Granted there will always be speculation we could have gotten someone more proven with Hodgson but whats done is done.

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02-27-2012, 05:18 PM
  #227
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Absolutely devastated.

There are no words.

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02-27-2012, 05:19 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I'm getting on a pedestal this time. Vignault is the reason we traded him. Positional depth and blah blah blah, it's a rich tapestry.

I like Kassian, he's a tough player, not afraid to get dirty, and I don't care what scouting reports say (1040's guy made him sound like a dirty Pyatt in his time here), I've watched him play, I'm a Buffalo fan (assuming they aren't playing the Canucks). Gragiani isn't high on my radar, and to be honest when I heard a "big defenseman" on TSN coming our way, I thought Myers. He is a Ballard type player, or at best, a low grade Bieksa. He needs a defensive partner. Alberts, Rome, Tanev....or Hamhuis/Edler.

I am not discounting either player, but I am pissed right off they cost us Hodgson. Vignault not liking players is nothing new, see Ballard, see Cooke, see Ohlund, see Demitra (R.I.P.). Say what you will about any of those guys, but the friction with Hodgson, as well as his low ice time, is obvious. Gragniani was coached by Vignault, thats the other smoking gun here. Lapierre worked out, but Lapierre didn't cost us Hodgson. Kassian and Gragniani could have their jerseys retired here and I'd still not forgive Vignault for his influence on the trade. He can shove his Jack Adams trophy up his ass, he faults a guy who has played as a star offensive player under the radar for a back injury, and then seems to want him to play as a 13th forward because he doesn't have the footspeed to back check like Hansen.

Cody, we loved you here in Vancouver. I'm sure you will have a magnificent career, please don't crucify us this weekend.



Could not have put it better. The stupid thing is that AV won't get the axe even if he does burn out in the playoffs - which I'm fully expecting. When a coach has this kind of influence on future long-term assets, he's entrenched.

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02-27-2012, 05:20 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
oh my god, i just got off work (EST) and am ready to jump off a bridge.

it may turn out well for us in the future, but wasn't cody our ace in the hole for this year's playoffs?

this is how i see our playoff roster, provided gragnani plays the right side and i have no idea if he does (he shoot left):

dank hank burr
boots kes higgy-bear
yanni rhino mayray
sami manny lappy
bitz, weise, kassian, schroeder

hamhuis bieksa
edles salo
k-ballz gragnani
rome, tanev, alberts... bomber?

lou
schnu


not loving a third line of hansen, reinprecht, and raymond.
Why would reinprecht go to the 3rd over Pahlsson, Malholtra, or even Lappy?

I think it'll be
Sedins Burrows
Booth Kesler Higgins
Hansen Pahlsson Raymond
Malhotra Lappy Weise/Bitz/Kassian

Kassian goes on the 4th line, but you can use him as a net presence on the 2nd unit PP. If he proves he's capable of handling that then he could even see time with Kes, perhaps

And that gives us a proper shut down line with interchangable parts (Higgins could go down, Lappy or Manny could go up, etc.)

It's a pretty balanced forward corps with some really good depth, but the issue is that it seemingly takes away from the great scoring depth we had with Hodgson. This last point needs to be qualified, however.

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Old
02-27-2012, 05:20 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by cbjerrisgaard View Post
Man some of you guys are soooooo dramatic. Coho for peanuts?

Kassian and Gragnani are not peanuts. Gragnani is 24 and scored 60 in Portland last year. Kassian is a freaking animal.

Let it play out a bit - it could be a horrible trade, but I have a feeling it won't be.
Thank you for some sanity. CDC thread up in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Gillis got pressured into getting tougher and now has decimated his depth scoring. The top 2 lines better get it done because we're not getting anything offensively out of the bottom 6, again.

Moving Hodgson will go down as Gillis' biggest mistake IMO. Kassian better make an impact.

AV again doesn't want a Kyle Wellwood type player centring the 3rd line. The coaches job has to be on the line if this team can't score goals and get it done come playoff time.

Very disappointing day for the organization IMO. And my Hodgson jersey is arriving some time this week. Yes!
We got Pahlsson...and he is not old. Id say that is pretty good centre depth. This allows Kesler to remain as a scoring line centre, and not have to shut down another teams' top line like he did last playoffs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Figz14 View Post


Alright guys, since one of our players is gone now we can bash them now.
So you really think Hodgson is more 'talented' than Henrik Sedin, Daniel Sedin, Kesler? Luongo? Edler? Hamhuis?

The truth is, he isnt. Hodgson is a great player with lots of talent, but if he was our most talented player than he was underperforming by a lot. Wouldnt we be happy to have traded then?

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02-27-2012, 05:20 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradanglus View Post
I've been a huge fan of Cody and it is a bitter pill to swallow that he's gone. He seemed to have the model work-ethic and character you would want in a player.

I found watching this Kassian video made me feel a little better.



What a completely different player to CoHo. He sure isn't chopped liver though; And if he brings that energy consistently and produces (hoping he reaches at least 50points/season somewhere down the track) this may well be what we needed. Throw in the reigning AHL defenceman of the year and we may come out grinners in the end.

On the flipside, we have traded a more sure-thing into two prospects who remain unproven in the NHL. Granted there will always be speculation we could have gotten someone more proven with Hodgson but whats done is done.
guy is a monster, but I knew that...

I'm just hoping he can contribute in the playoffs this season

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02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Nostradanglus View Post
I've been a huge fan of Cody and it is a bitter pill to swallow that he's gone. He seemed to have the model work-ethic and character you would want in a player.

I found watching this Kassian video made me feel a little better.

Me too. Thanks.

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02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
  #233
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Ughhh, we just got worse by a longshot, now and for the future.

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02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by rye&ginger View Post
Thank you for some sanity. CDC thread up in here.



We got Pahlsson...and he is not old. Id say that is pretty good centre depth. This allows Kesler to remain as a scoring line centre, and not have to shut down another teams' top line like he did last playoffs.





So you really think Hodgson is more 'talented' than Henrik Sedin, Daniel Sedin, Kesler? Luongo? Edler? Hamhuis?

The truth is, he isnt. Hodgson is a great player with lots of talent, but if he was our most talented player than he was underperforming by a lot. Wouldnt we be happy to have traded then?
With both Henrik and Kesler injured in the SCF, that was one thing Hodgson addressed for us this season... now who could replace either if one get's injured? Lapierre?

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02-27-2012, 05:23 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Ughhh, we just got worse by a longshot, now and for the future.
True.

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Old
02-27-2012, 05:23 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Spamhuis View Post
Except that Cody's puck possession numbers are terrible... so we didn't lose that. Get your head out of the clouds with Cody ( i love him too) but the reality is he wasn't good enough defensively.
Yes in his first full year. I don't expect that from him. He's here in an offensive role and produced.

People need to get their heads out of the sand. We lost a quality player for an upgrade on an area that we didn't need.

Our third line is much less intimidating as it used to be.

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02-27-2012, 05:23 PM
  #237
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Gragnani will NEED a sound D partner or you'll lose games on his blunders. He's got great ability when allowed to play offensive mindedly. The talent on the offensive end is there no question. But he's like Mike Green-lite. No defense.

Kassian is a monster on the ice. His offense is a LOT better than Beach but won't eclipse 60 pts unless he somehow breaks through his potential ceiling and plays with great teammates. There's been some talk about having the Sabres' organization try to keep his nastiness in check through coaching. They were worried he was TOO NASTY. Seriously. So if your organization wants to coach him to let loose, you'll find him to be better than his NHL games showed.

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02-27-2012, 05:23 PM
  #238
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Ok I suggested Hodgson as trade bait recently and sort of got beat up a bit for it. I hoped we get more but there are solid reason for this trade

Hodgson ultimate speed is a worry. Sure there are the great hands but Gillis has committed to speed from the beginning. If are to play the style the Canucks want you need speed up and down the ice and not just quickness in some areas of the ice. Moreover, you had to have questions about the Hodgson defensive ability. It had to improve and their was no guarantee it was going to. I watched Hodgson carefully with the Moose and with the Canucks and I saw limitations in his game that may prevent him from becoming the star that some here saw. Hodgson lack of speed was really noticeable in the transition form defense to offense.

Also, I said there might be real concerns about Hodgson making the kind of defensive mistake that would cause the team in the clutch in the playoffs. Maybe a few years from now you can trust better Hodgson's play in his own end but right now he makes some glaring mistake in coverage and has trouble (as stated) in getting back quickly enough to break up plays in his own end.

I, and I guess the Canucks, have always had long term concerns about Hodgson. Maybe the Canucks did the right thing in moving a player while he was hot and before those concerns became more obvious.

Another factor is the improved play of Schroeder. Hodgson and Schroeder fit the same category of player and were never going to be used as centers at the same time. (and Schroeder must play center) I have said that I think the who ultimately is better between Hodgson and Schroeder is a toss up. The one thing Schroeder brings over Hodgson is speed. There is no question that he recovers to defense far better than Hodgson. Really the Canucks had too many of the same type of players in the prospect category.

Whether the Canucks got enough in return is open to question. Kassian could be absolute stud and fulfill much the same role as Hartnell does with Philly. He toyed with players in the OHL physically and can score. There are questions here about intelligence and commitment but if the Canucks can get him to buy in he brings the physical game we don't have right among our prospects. Have watched Gragnani at the AHL level (where he was probably the best defenseman last year) and he is solid two way prospect. Should be easy top 6 down the road and helps with the cap next year. together they do not have the star potential of Hodgson right now. However both should be solid NHL players.

Chancy trade but the logic is clear. Hodgson had value but there had to be near and long term questions about him and the return sort out an oversupply in one area with help in areas that may need. Plus there is real potential with the new players

One further thought is that with the Grangani acquisition, Ballard is out the door this summer.

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Old
02-27-2012, 05:24 PM
  #239
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Sabres fan here. Reading some of the reactions here I'm happy to get Hodgson. Sorry most of you aren't happy. But Kassian will be good for you guys.

He's a physical player who has shown signs of offensive potential. He could be your next Bertuzzi. He has had some character issues and shown signs of immaturity but he is extremely green when it comes to the NHL. He might not help you out for this playoff run but he'll be a physical force for years to come.

Gragnani is good in the offensive zone but he is absolutely brutal defensively. Giveaway machine and extremely soft.

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02-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windflare View Post
On Gragnani:

pitseleh and I have been discussing this briefly on the previous thread.

Canucks fans, step away from the ledge and look closely at this trade.

MAG has a +10 on a team of all minuses (except for Gerbe). Literally all minuses. pitseleh looked at the Corsi numbers and it's clear that while some of it is by chance, this disparity cannot be all attributed to chance.

A young, left-handed puck mover who can play on the right side and put up points is an extreme rarity in the NHL, as well as one who can play a good puck possession game.

The best part? He's only 25 this year, and has an extremely proven track record in the Q and the AHL.


We can discuss Kassian all we want, but make no mistake - Gillis knew what he was going for when he went into this trade.
If he wanted Gragnani I'm pretty sure the price wouldn't have been Hodgson so why not just deal an AHLer or a pick.

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02-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #241
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AV throwing the pigskin was the sign of who's the QB in the room.

Having said that, Canucks are averaging over 100 points a year with him at the helm, so I think he's allowed to give input. Ultimately it's up to Gillis & Co to decide.

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02-27-2012, 05:26 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by KDizzle View Post
Why would reinprecht go to the 3rd over Pahlsson, Malholtra, or even Lappy?

I think it'll be
Sedins Burrows
Booth Kesler Higgins
Hansen Pahlsson Raymond
Malhotra Lappy Weise/Bitz/Kassian

Kassian goes on the 4th line, but you can use him as a net presence on the 2nd unit PP. If he proves he's capable of handling that then he could even see time with Kes, perhaps

And that gives us a proper shut down line with interchangable parts (Higgins could go down, Lappy or Manny could go up, etc.)

It's a pretty balanced forward corps with some really good depth, but the issue is that it seemingly takes away from the great scoring depth we had with Hodgson. This last point needs to be qualified, however.
given how scoring depth from the third line has been such a boon this year with kesler taking a while to get back up to speed and the sedins slumping at times, i have to think that MG is gambling on reinprecht to take on the offensive burden on the third line for this year.

i could be wrong. but let's just say i don't like anyone AV could potentially slot in at third line center. we have basically two excellent third lines, but we used to have two excellent first lines, a decent second line (our actual third line), and a good third line (our fourth line).

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02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
  #243
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Now I only watch about 20 Canucks games a year but you guys got a lot better with this trade imo. You'll be so much harder to play against physically with him.
how is the guy in the AHL going to be hitting NHLers.
Gragnani is not scary, at best he'll be a 3rd pairing guy.

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02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
  #244
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I meant to say ONE of our most talented forwards people. Obviously he's not the most talented player in the league or on our team.

I wonder what our 2nd PP looks like now. A lot less intimidating that's for sure.

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02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
  #245
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i find it bloody amazing that people are ready to jump off a bridge over this trade. i'm sure Gillis and Co have done their homework and just because it makes no sense to a bunch of internet GM wannabees, does not mean it does not make sense for our team. i think i will reserve judgment until i at least see the new guys play. to compare stats when the players are playing in completely different circumstances is useless. lets have some perspective people. i think Gillis knows the team better than all of us put together. And, as far as saying, oh Gillis could have traded this guy or that guy instead of Hodgson, if I recall how trades work, the other side has to accept the offer.

Take a pill people!!

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02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Henrik2Daniel View Post
With both Henrik and Kesler injured in the SCF, that was one thing Hodgson addressed for us this season... now who could replace either if one get's injured? Lapierre?
No team is going to win a cup if their top two centers are out.

Do you honestly think Hodgson could've survived the Chara-Seidenberg pairing? Or the Weber-Suter pairing? Face it, Hodgson was getting the easiest matchups on the ice.

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02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
  #247
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You gotta to be kidding me, I think Gillis has lost his mind on this deal. I see nothing but negative on this one, how on earth would you want to trade Hodgson for that? If you are going to trade Hodgson for Jeff Carter, that is easier to swallow, but for that kind of package?

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02-27-2012, 05:28 PM
  #248
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We didn't get worse.

We're like the Red Wings with a bit of Flyers/Bruins physicality mixed in there.

I am a huge Cody fan, but a bigger Canuck fan. I am pretty excited now.

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02-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Ughhh, we just got worse by a longshot, now and for the future.


Impossible to know that, everyone needs to stop being so over dramatic.

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02-27-2012, 05:30 PM
  #250
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i find it bloody amazing that people are ready to jump off a bridge over this trade. i'm sure Gillis and Co have done their homework and just because it makes no sense to a bunch of internet GM wannabees, does not mean it does not make sense for our team. i think i will reserve judgment until i at least see the new guys play. to compare stats when the players are playing in completely different circumstances is useless. lets have some perspective people. i think Gillis knows the team better than all of us put together. And, as far as saying, oh Gillis could have traded this guy or that guy instead of Hodgson, if I recall how trades work, the other side has to accept the offer.

Take a pill people!!
They're not infallible. The Ballard trade and Sturm signing can attest to that.

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