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Who is more in the wrong?

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Old
02-27-2012, 06:50 PM
  #1
SkyKushryd
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Who is more in the wrong?

Before I tell what happened I'll describe the way the "league" I play in on Saturdays works.

There's about 20 "Regular" players, and about 20-30 "Spares", when a regular can't go, he calls the guy in charge and the guy in charge calls a spare. then he gives a list of all the players playing to our scorekeeper/statskeeper and that guy makes the teams each week, so it's different every week.

So anyways, this past saturday, my team is up 13 - 7 with about 10 minutes left (we play for 90 minutes) and I'm covering for my defenseman when an opposing player gets a breakaway. I pride myself on playing good defensively when I'm on the ice, whether I'm a forward or a defenceman, so I skate hard and dive out to knock the puck away from him. I knocked the puck away, and also partially took out his feet from under him. I'm 95% sure I got the puck first, and there was no penalty called on the play so It wasn't a dirty play in my eyes. He wen't sliding into the boards on his knees, and we cleared the puck. On his way out of our zone he starts yelling at me, and saying "What do you think you're doing!?!?" and "That's how guys get hurt!!" and stuff like that. I apologized to him after the game, but he wouldn't speak to me at all.


We ended up winning 15 - 8, so it wouldn't have affected the score to just let him have the breakaway, but I would have felt bad with myself for giving up on that play.

Who's in the wrong here? Should I have just given up on the play?

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02-27-2012, 07:11 PM
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Droid6
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That's a tough one. I see both sides of the argument but I got my knee blown out by some dick-head that tripped me from behind when I was on a breakaway in a meaningless regular season game and I couldn't bend my leg for weeks and all I could think about is how I wouldn't be able to play sports with my son when I get older because I was going to have a bad knee. Luckily after a long 8 months my knee got better but now I have a new consciousness when it come to playing guys too hard in rec league. I know you weren't trying to hurt the guy but sometimes if you can't play the puck clean you just have to swallow your pride and let the guy go. You don't want to be this guy:


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02-27-2012, 07:55 PM
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mbowman
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I'm gonna take the opposite stand. I think that's a fine play. I did it numerous times in my house league I used to play in. I see it as a play where, most of the time nothing happens. Sure, fluke injuries are possible, but they're possible on just about every play that happens on the ice. So long as you didn't maliciously take home out and try to hurt him, I've got no problem, and obviously the ref didn't either.

Especially if he went into the boards on his knees. By the sounds of it, he had plenty of time to brace himself and hit the boards in such a way as to not hurt himself. Good on ya for playing d

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02-27-2012, 08:04 PM
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AIREAYE
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This is tricky, because no one could be 'wrong' here; that simply depends on the outcome of the play.

Your first decision was to dive and pokecheck. This could lead to one of 3 scenarios : a clean play where you touch the puck first and no injury occurs, a penalty for taking out the body before the puck and finally, an injury.

If it was the first scenario, you should be fine, no harm done and a good play. If the second, then you will rightfully get called on it and no harm done. However if you injure the guy (doesn't matter if it was a penalty or not), everything will be for naught and you could be blamed for causing injury in a meaningless play, as it was simply your intent to dive that triggered everything. The results are often out of your control once you aim for the puck, contact or no.

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02-27-2012, 08:08 PM
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vapor11
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Dick move..If you are playing organised league hockey I understand a bit but sounds like you play scrub just for fun..I hate those guys who act like we are playing for the stanley cup and hack/slash or in this case do what you did..I am with the other guy on this one


Last edited by vapor11: 02-28-2012 at 12:20 AM.
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02-27-2012, 09:15 PM
  #6
CookieCrumbs*
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What's wrong with a little physicality? It's a sport.

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02-27-2012, 09:16 PM
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hockeymass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbowman View Post
I'm gonna take the opposite stand. I think that's a fine play. I did it numerous times in my house league I used to play in. I see it as a play where, most of the time nothing happens. Sure, fluke injuries are possible, but they're possible on just about every play that happens on the ice. So long as you didn't maliciously take home out and try to hurt him, I've got no problem, and obviously the ref didn't either.

Especially if he went into the boards on his knees. By the sounds of it, he had plenty of time to brace himself and hit the boards in such a way as to not hurt himself. Good on ya for playing d
No. Everyone's gotta get up for work in the morning. Stay on your feet.

Just skate faster.

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02-27-2012, 09:59 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeymass View Post
No. Everyone's gotta get up for work in the morning. Stay on your feet.

Just skate faster.
This response triggers another question:

I learned hockey as an adult, but as a kid I grew up playing the typical American sports. In baseball, you're taught that sliding slows you down and should only be done as a controlled stop. In football, you're taught that you have a better chance of catching an overthrown pass if you keep running, and diving should only be done if the ball is headed toward the ground.

Does the same apply in hockey? Is it better to "skate through" on that play? I mean obviously there are times when you come from an angle that a sweep check will work, but I'm talking about when you're trailing the play by a stride or two. Seems like the forward would slow down as he approaches the net, giving you a window to try a stick-lift if you just keep your feet moving.

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02-27-2012, 10:49 PM
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Stickmata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessel View Post
Dick move..If you are playing organised league hockey I understand a bit but sounds like you play scrub just for fun..I hate those guys who act like we playing for the stanley cup and hack/slash or in this case do what you did..I am with the other guy on this one
Agree. Sounds like a pick-up game with refs. I wouldn't have gone that hard at it, particularly with the score like that.

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02-27-2012, 11:01 PM
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ProV1
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STUPID,

Might look cool on tv. Too bad there's no cameras at your game. Someone does that to me, I'd make those last 10 min hell for them. And my teammates would be rockin' high hard ones at your goalie also.

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02-27-2012, 11:35 PM
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vapor11
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I just go home from pickup and thought of this thread right after it happened..I am a hypocrite..I play forward but one of the defense on my scrub team kept pinching so I kept hanging back..one of the better players got a breakaway and I was right behind him but he had an extra step or two..I knew his move and dove for the empty space to the right of his deek and caught the puck with a diving pokecheck as he tried to pull the puck back and wait out the goalie..Had it been 90% of the other players out there I would have let it go..but I couldn't let the hotshot dangle our goalie

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02-28-2012, 12:30 AM
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newfr4u
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USAHockey non-checking rules say that's a penalty. it doesn't matter if you got the puck first, or at all. so you are in the wrong.

it's also really stupid to dive at a guy's skates. especially in a beer league, or a glorified drop-in, which your game sounds like.

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02-28-2012, 02:56 AM
  #13
epo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
STUPID,

Might look cool on tv. Too bad there's no cameras at your game. Someone does that to me, I'd make those last 10 min hell for them. And my teammates would be rockin' high hard ones at your goalie also.
A living hell without playing cheap or trying too hard right?

lol at high and hard


Last edited by epo: 02-28-2012 at 03:19 AM.
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02-28-2012, 03:06 AM
  #14
dwreckm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
STUPID,

Might look cool on tv. Too bad there's no cameras at your game. Someone does that to me, I'd make those last 10 min hell for them. And my teammates would be rockin' high hard ones at your goalie also.
Yes, because the obvious rational response is to take out your anger on someone who had nothing to do with the situation. Bravo!

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02-28-2012, 09:44 AM
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CarlWinslow
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Its a beer league and you are all just playing for fun an exercise. The game is in hand. Let the guy have the lousy breakaway.

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02-28-2012, 09:53 AM
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goalie29
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I have permanent knee damage (cartilage) from being taken out just like that in my beginner house league. Someone thought they were a superstar.

Desperation manoevres like that are cheap in pick up hockey. Not worth the risk vs. the potential benefit.

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02-28-2012, 10:20 AM
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mbowman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
USAHockey non-checking rules say that's a penalty. it doesn't matter if you got the puck first, or at all. so you are in the wrong.

it's also really stupid to dive at a guy's skates. especially in a beer league, or a glorified drop-in, which your game sounds like.
USA hockey, maybe. But since he's playing in Canada, the point is moot. It's allowed in Hockey Canada amateur leagues, even the non-contact ones.

I see the points made above, and I don't disagree. But diving for the puck to stop a breakaway is a part of the game. I've done it, and I never played anything close to competitive hockey. I maintain that if he'd been hurt, it would've been a fluke injury, which is possible in any part of the game. Maybe, given the circumstances, you should have let up, but I don't see any problem at all with the play itself.

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02-28-2012, 10:57 AM
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ChiTownHawks
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Lord, in my league this happens to me all the time. I am one of the better skaters and I find that a lot of the lower skill guys use physicality instead of skill. I get tripped, hacked, and slashed all the time when I skate by guys. Normally I don't say anything unless I feel there was some intent to injure.

Example: bear with on the lengthy back story

There is a guy in my league who is pretty bad at hockey, but I've never actually chirped him for anything b/c I don't want to be a jerk. He runs into guys all the time b/c he can't skate well and people are always talking about how is going to hurt someone. Well the team he plays on is a bigger team and they play a real physical style. My team is quick and more skilled so we normally leave extra physical crap out of our game.

In our game a couple weeks ago we were starting to pull away so they started to get chippy and this guy swings his stick at one of our guys. My D partner yells from the bench for him to watch his stick and he tried his best to flick off my D partner with his glove on.

The next time we are both on the ice I skate past him with the puck and he takes a 2 handed swing right at skates and I go flying. Since he sucks at skating this knocks him off balance as well and he falls on his ass and crashes into the boards. After I get up I turn around and tell him to learn how to play ****ing hockey or get off the ice. I felt kind of like a ***** for saying that, but I was at my breaking point with this kid.

I guess my point in all of this is that no I don't really think what you did was all that wrong, but diving at someone's legs when you are up by 6 goals throws up some red flags and guys are bound to get pissed. Even if hockey is a physical game.

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02-28-2012, 10:58 AM
  #19
jsykes
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I have to agree with those that think its a bad move in adult league hockey. No one is going to win a thing from one game to the next, its not even a playoff game. I understand playing hard, but if its at all a play where someone COULD get hurt, back off and let it go.

I've been slew footed and hit from behind into the boards playing adult hockey. Luckily, nothing more than a few bruises, but on one slew foot I thought I really hurt my back. Its not fun and for what?

Thats the big question. For what? What do you get out of taking someone out and possibly hurting them? Do you really feel more of a man and a hockey player?

Its not worth it. Everyone needs to get up and go to work the next day. Err on the side of caution.

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02-28-2012, 11:10 AM
  #20
hockeymass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbowman View Post
USA hockey, maybe. But since he's playing in Canada, the point is moot. It's allowed in Hockey Canada amateur leagues, even the non-contact ones.

I see the points made above, and I don't disagree. But diving for the puck to stop a breakaway is a part of the game. I've done it, and I never played anything close to competitive hockey. I maintain that if he'd been hurt, it would've been a fluke injury, which is possible in any part of the game. Maybe, given the circumstances, you should have let up, but I don't see any problem at all with the play itself.
There's a difference between jostling someone and laying out and taking out his feet. If someone slid into my feet like it was game 7 of the SCF and broke my ankle in a beer league tilt, I'd be ripped. Don't be a plug, outskate him and make a play on his stick or the puck.

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02-28-2012, 11:19 AM
  #21
Trojan35
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From the rulebook, USAH has that as a tripping penalty in rec leagues, even if you get the puck first. So the fact it wasn't called a penalty doesn't mean it wasn't one. I also agree, don't go tripping guys at full speed in rec league. It's freaking rec league. (Not sure if canada is different on the rules)

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Us...F_07&id=311234


QUESTION: If a player is skating towards the net in a breakaway and a defensive player dives and knocks the puck away from the opponent first then trips the attacking player what is the correct call? Is it a penalty or is it legal because you played the puck first?

ANSWER: Under Rule 639(a)2 this action should be penalized for tripping. A player may not simply dive and sweep an opponent’s legs out from under him. The fact that the player made contact with the puck first makes no difference.

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02-28-2012, 11:44 AM
  #22
mbowman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
From the rulebook, USAH has that as a tripping penalty in rec leagues, even if you get the puck first. So the fact it wasn't called a penalty doesn't mean it wasn't one. I also agree, don't go tripping guys at full speed in rec league. It's freaking rec league. (Not sure if canada is different on the rules)

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Us...F_07&id=311234


QUESTION: If a player is skating towards the net in a breakaway and a defensive player dives and knocks the puck away from the opponent first then trips the attacking player what is the correct call? Is it a penalty or is it legal because you played the puck first?

ANSWER: Under Rule 639(a)2 this action should be penalized for tripping. A player may not simply dive and sweep an opponent’s legs out from under him. The fact that the player made contact with the puck first makes no difference.
And in the Hockey Canada rulebook, rule 7.4(c) it says that "If a player in the process of falling or sliding along the ice, hits or knocks the puck from her opponent's stick prior to making actual body contact, the tripping action shall be ignored." Stop trying to use USA hockey rules in a Canadian context.

As I said, I see the merit to those arguing that he should have laid off. It's a rec league, nobody wants to get hurt. As I mentioned above, maybe in this particular inconsequential situation, he shouldn't have taken the guy out. However, I can't agree with the blanket statement about not doing this sort of thing in rec leagues. If it's in the rules, and so long as you don't do it maliciously, recklessly, or with intent to injure, and it has an impact on the outcome of the game, go for it.

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Old
02-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #23
Stickmata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
From the rulebook, USAH has that as a tripping penalty in rec leagues, even if you get the puck first. So the fact it wasn't called a penalty doesn't mean it wasn't one. I also agree, don't go tripping guys at full speed in rec league. It's freaking rec league. (Not sure if canada is different on the rules)

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Us...F_07&id=311234


QUESTION: If a player is skating towards the net in a breakaway and a defensive player dives and knocks the puck away from the opponent first then trips the attacking player what is the correct call? Is it a penalty or is it legal because you played the puck first?

ANSWER: Under Rule 639(a)2 this action should be penalized for tripping. A player may not simply dive and sweep an opponent’s legs out from under him. The fact that the player made contact with the puck first makes no difference.
This is certainly not the way its actually called in practice, at least in our leagues. I've seen this play many times in league play and it's never been called a penalty. Still wouldn't have done it in this situation though.

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02-28-2012, 12:00 PM
  #24
mbeam
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A teammate of mine did this in a lopsided blowout (something like 10-1 at this point) and ended up injuring himself right before playoffs. I get that sometimes in the heat of the moment it's tough to turn off that competitive instinct and consider the circumstances.

It's not a cheap move and I would think it's a fine play. The chances for injury on the play are small. I understand the mentality that we all have to work in the morning but hockey is a physical sport and besides that there was no intent to injury and it wasn't a cheap play. Given the circumstances I can see why he'd be upset and if I were on your team I might chuckle at how hard you tried on the play, but I see nothing wrong with it.

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Old
02-28-2012, 12:08 PM
  #25
noobman
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If you're going to play hockey you need to be prepared to take the odd bump.

You dove and you got puck first. That's a good hockey play. Typically when I'm playing unorganized hockey with a group of guys like that I'll backcheck, but I won't dive. Depending on who the guy is I might lay off the gas altogether and give him a chance to take a shot or make a move, or I might skate up to him and try to tie up his stick. If he's slow enough for me to catch I'll get beside him and try to force him to one side without hitting him (possibly leaning on his body a little bit as I try to steal the puck).

I don't see anything wrong with what you did. I wouldn't have done it myself, but it's a play that happens. The important thing is that nobody got hurt, and that you apologized for the play. At this point he's just being a bit of a baby.

The only thing I'll really harp on guys about when playing like that are the guys who take long shifts, the guys who selectively pass the puck to their buddies, and the guys who intentionally go for dirty plays/penalties to stop you. We have this one guy who does all three... he's an older guy and a solid player, but a little slow. He flips out every time you don't give him a pass (despite standing perfectly still on the blueline) but in return only passes to his friends and takes extra-long shifts. If he's on D and you get past him he'll just grab you by the jersey every time to slow you down.


Last edited by noobman: 02-28-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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