Do we NEED to get cap relief this offseason to sign someone like Parise? The answer is no, we don't. Thus, wanting to trade Dubinsky THIS OFFSEASON is doing it for the hell of it (because it certainly wouldn't be an intelligent use of an asset).
And will that enable him to win a faceoff? Anisimov works on the wing. Anisimov works as a center with Dubinsky on his wing (to take the faceoffs for him). Anisimov at center with no Dubinsky? He's a straight up liability. If the only spot left is 3rd line center and you've got to choose between Ani and Dubi to play that role for a year until Miller is ready, it's pretty obvious who you go with (the cap hit won't be a problem until the summer of 2013, and that's only IF you sign Parise).
I swear to God 95% of the people on this forum have never actually played a competitive sport. Plenty of players (hell, I'd say more than half) have down seasons. This goes back to the Gaborik example people brought up earlier in the thread. Was he getting almost 8 million last season to be outscored by Brandon Dubinsky? Nope. Did we move him in the offseason? Of course not. It was just a down year.
Which brings us to...
Yes, I criticize you for your If's because they are all based on hope. My "if" is based on the last 4 years of watching a player. Why do I think Dubinsky will be back to normal next season? Because I've watched literally hundreds of players have a down year and then bounce back. This isn't a situation like Cheechoo or Prucha, where their numbers were inflated by playing in that goofy 2005/06 season where everyone had more space due to the new rules. Dubi's shooting percentage is a fraction of what it usually is. He's in a slump, and he'll probably need an offseason to get the problem out of his head.
And yes, he scored points last year because he got minutes last year. Guess what? Callahan is on pace for about the same number of points as Dubi put up last year, and he's getting a minute + more ice time than Dubi did last year. Do you worry about Callahan getting demoted? Of course not. Non-slump-year Dubinsky easily bumps Hagelin to the 3rd line, and that's nothing against Hagelin.
Either way--as I said, I'm not opposed to moving Dubinsky. I have yet to hear any reason why it makes sense to do it this offseason at all. If you want to have a successful team long term, you need to make the most of your assets. Dubinsky, if he is to be moved, would best be moved either NEXT offseason or at the trade deadline. I still think he comes right back next year and shows why it would be pure idiocy to move him at all--unless of course, you're still pissed off at his holdout.
The move of Dubinsky is contingent on being able to sign a UFA who would cost more. It's also a move that i'd rather make in the offseason than in the deadline as to not kill chemistry. Dealing him in general is because he'll likely be looking for a similar contract after this one is up and I don't think he's worth it for his role and would rather not lose him for absolutely nothing.
I have played a competitive sport buddy. That has nothing to do with my understanding of a particular mindset. What you haven't understood is that I'm not trading Dubinsky because he's slumping. I'm trading him because what his role has evolved to for this team is no longer worth 4.2 million.
And okay, i'd love for Dubinsky to bounce back and put up those numbers. I'll eat my crow if it happens.
I am in NO rush to trade Brandon Dubinsky. This Rick Nash fiasco was one of the few scenarios in which I would talk about maybe trading Dubi. (Getting a bonafide top 15 LW in return)
Brandon Dubinsky could repeat his statline from this year next year and we could still move him at the trade deadline if we wanted to. All we'd really be looking for in return is a salary dump and some decent picks/prospects. This is not a player who's career is on the verge of collapse, this is a player in an offensive slump who is still a tremendous contributor in many other ways. He has and will have value in the future.
But in all likelihood, IMO, there won't be a lot of Ranger fans talking about trading this guy after the postseason or maybe even before then. This guy is due. And I think he's gonna shake this slump.
The move of Dubinsky is contingent on being able to sign a UFA who would cost more. It's also a move that i'd rather make in the offseason than in the deadline as to not kill chemistry. Dealing him in general is because he'll likely be looking for a similar contract after this one is up and I don't think he's worth it for his role and would rather not lose him for absolutely nothing.
Again--what UFA are you expecting to sign who will cost more than 7 or 8 million per year? Between Wolski, Drury's lower buyout number and Fedotenko, the Rangers have plenty of cap space to sign a top player. The cap might be an issue NEXT summer, but for next season? No need to move Dubinsky to sign a UFA. Also, seriously? You want to trade him for his NEXT contract!? That's three years away. That is officially the most ludicrous excuse yet I've seen to want to trade someone (in three years, they might be looking for the same kind of contract).
Quote:
I have played a competitive sport buddy. That has nothing to do with my understanding of a particular mindset. What you haven't understood is that I'm not trading Dubinsky because he's slumping. I'm trading him because what his role has evolved to for this team is no longer worth 4.2 million.
He was worth 4.2 million because of the last 4 seasons. His "role for this team" being a 3rd liner is solely due to his slump. Ergo, yes you are looking to trade Dubinsky because he's slumping. You literally just said as much in the above quotation.
Quote:
And okay, i'd love for Dubinsky to bounce back and put up those numbers. I'll eat my crow if it happens.
This is why I asked if you played a competitive sport (I wasn't trying to take a dig). It baffles me how anyone who has played competitively can fail to see what's going on with Dubinsky this season. Everything, from his reluctance to shoot to his tentative play to his freaking posture screams that he's got his slump in his head. Anyone who has played any team sport at a serious level should be able to see this. An early slump gets inside your head and all of a sudden, simple plays that you never had to think about before make you nervous. You start wondering what you'll screw up next. The more you try to fight your way out of it, the more you screw up (which makes it get in your head all the more, because you feel like you're letting your teammates down). Sometimes, a good player will just battle through it, screw up royally for a few weeks and then get back on track. Others, like the case with Dubinsky, the player just shuts down the parts of his game that are giving him trouble. Instead of being assertive and shooting/crashing the net, he's deferring to his linemates, winning the puck and dishing it off. The fact that he looks slower at times--I had to laugh when someone speculated that he didn't put in any work in the offseason--he's thinking about things that he used to do on reflex. His whole body language in the offensive zone is tentative.
In the defensive zone, he doesn't have time for that, and he hasn't had any problems. When he gets to the offseason (or hopefully the postseason) and can officially put this season behind him, he'll bounce back. Player after player after player has done it. It is exceptionally rare for a player in any sport to go through a career without at least one season like the one Dubinsky is going through now. That's where the biggest area of difference is between those of us who want to keep him and those who want to dump him off as if he were useless--those who want to dump him think (as they thought with Gaborik, MDZ, etc etc) that this slump is something that could only ever happen to Dubinsky. Those of us who want to keep him recognize that when a player has 4 seasons at one level and one that sticks out as an aberration, odds are pretty good that season 6 will be more like the good seasons than the bad. He just needs to get the slump out of his head.
I am in NO rush to trade Brandon Dubinsky. This Rick Nash fiasco was one of the few scenarios in which I would talk about maybe trading Dubi. (Getting a bonafide top 15 LW in return)
Brandon Dubinsky could repeat his statline from this year next year and we could still move him at the trade deadline if we wanted to. All we'd really be looking for in return is a salary dump and some decent picks/prospects. This is not a player who's career is on the verge of collapse, this is a player in an offensive slump who is still a tremendous contributor in many other ways. He has and will have value in the future.
But in all likelihood, IMO, there won't be a lot of Ranger fans talking about trading this guy after the postseason or maybe even before then. This guy is due. And I think he's gonna shake this slump.
I agree with almost all of this, though I would argue that Dubinsky, even in the unlikely event that he repeats this season's numbers next year, still brings in a nice return if traded at the deadline in 2013. Paul Gaustad, a 30 year old whose career high in points is still lower than Dubi's career low, brought back a 1st round pick. At the deadline next year, even if he's still down (and I'd bet money against a repeat of this season), Dubinsky returns at least a first round pick.
No way we could get Parise without getting rid of Dubinsky (Or another bigger contract). Especially since we do not know where the cap will wind up or how the new CBA will look. Not advocating either alternative - just outlying cap restraints below:
FORWARDS XXXX FWD ($4.500m) / Brad Richards ($6.666m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m) Chris Kreider ($1.750m) / Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Michael Rupp ($1.500m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Brandon Prust ($1.300m) Stu Bickel ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael del Zott0 ($3.500m) Tim Erixon ($1.750m) / Mike Sauer ($1.250m) Anton Strĺlman ($0.990m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) Martin Biron ($1.200m)
BUYOUTS
Chris Drury ($1.666m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
CAP PAYROLL: $63,598,334
BONUSES: $1,462,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $701,666
No way we could get Parise without getting rid of Dubinsky (Or another bigger contract). Especially since we do not know where the cap will wind up or how the new CBA will look. Not advocating either alternative - just outlying cap restraints below:
FORWARDS XXXX FWD ($4.500m) / Brad Richards ($6.666m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m) Chris Kreider ($1.750m) / Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Michael Rupp ($1.500m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Brandon Prust ($1.300m) Stu Bickel ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael del Zott0 ($3.500m) Tim Erixon ($1.750m) / Mike Sauer ($1.250m) Anton Strĺlman ($0.990m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) Martin Biron ($1.200m)
BUYOUTS
Chris Drury ($1.666m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
CAP PAYROLL: $63,598,334
BONUSES: $1,462,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $701,666
Unless MDZ is signing for four or five years I don't see him getting $3.5 million.
Unless MDZ is signing for four or five years I don't see him getting $3.5 million.
I agree, but I also think we may just do that (I therefore put him between our allstars Girardi & Staal in salary after ELC -mostly due to his offence -on a presumptive 4 year deal). If he gets a 2 year deal a la Dubinsky/Callahan - I think we are looking at around $2,5 M per annum. I know Sather likes to hardball RFAs without arbitration rights, but somebody might throw an offer sheet at DZ if he is too vicious. Anyways - time will tell what happens (even with a million off here on DZs salary on a short deal - there is no way to retain the core of the team and sign Parise)...
Also ignoring the fact that the cap will almost certainly rise during the summer--perhaps as much as 4+ million before the cba expires in September.
Here I totally agree with Ranger Boy and his previous assessments - I do not think it will go up this year, instead it might to the contrary possibly even go down a little (with some other terms meaning a "soft landing") in the new CBA. Pretty pointless to have capspace in the summer if we cannot use the roster in the fall-no? But nobody knows what will happen here so anything assumed in either direction is of course just pure speculation.Which is kinda fun and what posting here is about - no?
OTOH if it goes up, it will de facto be going up AFTER July 1st and that creates quite a paradox by signing big name UFA before you know what the cap will look like (I presume Sather might have a pretty good idea though) in the future.
I am for bringing in a bigtime LW UFA - but I think it might be difficult. Maybe revisit Anaheim (B Ryan) or Howson for Nash again (less interesting imo due to length) and see if a dealis possible after the SC??? I dunno???
I agree, but I also think we may just do that (I therefore put him between our allstars Girardi & Staal in salary after ELC -mostly due to his offence -on a presumptive 4 year deal). If he gets a 2 year deal a la Dubinsky/Callahan - I think we are looking at around $2,5 M per annum. I know Sather likes to hardball RFAs without arbitration rights, but somebody might throw an offer sheet at DZ if he is too vicious. Anyways - time will tell what happens (even with a million off here on DZs salary on a short deal - there is no way to retain the core of the team and sign Parise)...
I think Girardi's current contract is his third, not second.
I like all the line combos posted here but what are the chances of Parise being a Ranger next season? I don't really have the time to be up-to-date on the latest news in the NHL since the rugby season started last weekend and I will focus on that now
Why am I seeing everyone slot dubinsky into that 3rd line center spot? He's worse at center than at wing we will see him at LW if he's even on the roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.300m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Zach Parise ($6.700m) / Brad Richards ($6.666m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / John Mitchell ($0.850m) / Brandon Prust ($1.200m)
Michael Rupp ($1.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Mike Sauer ($1.250m)
Michael Del Zotto ($3.500m) / Anton Stralman ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) / Martin Biron ($1.000m)
BUYOUTS: Chris Drury ($1.666m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,308,334; BONUSES: $612,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $991,666
FORWARDS
Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Zach Parise ($6.700m) / Brad Richards ($6.666m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Chris Kreider ($1.300m) / Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / John Mitchell ($0.850m) / Brandon Prust ($1.200m)
Michael Rupp ($1.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Mike Sauer ($1.250m)
Michael Del Zotto ($3.500m) / Anton Stralman ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) / Martin Biron ($1.000m)
BUYOUTS: Chris Drury ($1.666m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,308,334; BONUSES: $612,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $991,666
at everyone putting Parise in.
