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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part X

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Old
02-27-2012, 10:52 PM
  #51
Capitlols
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
No ****. That's what I was saying.
Uh then how did the return suck? That was a hell of a lot for a guy with character issues and coming off a concussion.

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02-27-2012, 10:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Yeah--Poile would be better than McPhee. I'm not sure he can win a Cup but he's a lot better than average.

It's really, really, really, really, really hard to win a Stanley Cup. Ted, a newcomer to the game, doesn't realize how it works. It takes a special manager to put the pieces together.
It sure is difficult. I remember when I was deployed and finally was able to read Stars and Stripes and get other news and would get any info about the 3003 SC playoffs that year. Just say I was very shocked when I saw the Ducks vs NJ and then that game go to Game 7. I was so sad to see the Caps lose to TB. The last news I read or glimpse of the game was Game 3 in Kuwait and the Caps had a 2-0 series lead. I'm hoping the Caps can do what Anaheim did that year, but that is asking a ton.

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02-27-2012, 10:58 PM
  #53
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There is zero doubt Wideman would have returned a 1st rounder and a prospect.

If the Caps think Backstrom will return, I understand their thinking. This team, if healthy, will always have a punchers chance. If they don't think he returns, this decision is inexcusible.

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02-27-2012, 10:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Capitlols View Post
Uh then how did the return suck? That was a hell of a lot for a guy with character issues and coming off a concussion.
Lou has a knack for finding players that help his teams and taking gambles. Mogilny, Malakhov just to name a few had attitude issues and contributed greatly for his past teams. He took gambles on them and they paid off. The guy really is a hockey GM wizard.

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02-27-2012, 11:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Capitlols View Post
Uh then how did the return suck? That was a hell of a lot for a guy with character issues and coming off a concussion.
You honestly think the return for Zidlicky was good?

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02-27-2012, 11:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
you over rate the return on just about every single one of those, its the basis for this "drafts worth of picks" position....and you call it nitpicking?

again, would you make those trades?
If I didn't think they were possible, I wouldn't have written them.
Wideman for a 1st seems quite possible given what Zidlicky got.
Hamrlik for a 2nd is easily possible given that Hammer has played decently well -- and based on trade day talk, it sounds like McPhee might have had better offers.
Knuble for a 3rd also seems possible because this has been a sudden off year after years of steady production and his experience/leadership is still there.
Vokoun for a 2nd & 3rd.. he still has the reputation that he can be elite, for a team like the Flyers that has everything else could easily be worth it.

And since you made me justify those values, please go ahead and post your estimates, too, if you're confident that I'm so far off.

You're still nitpicking though, since you didn't bother to address anything else I wrote. Even if I was off by a factor of 2, my argument would still be unchanged.


Last edited by artilector: 02-27-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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Old
02-27-2012, 11:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
I don't see through the same eyes as GMs. Its not "easy" to notice when someone is streaky bad at defense like Wideman is. Its up to interpretation, and mine is that he is not good at D and we sure as hell shouldn't resign him, especially when we don't need him.

Kaberle had accomplishments from previous years, but he was bad last year. Wideman was an all-star and a top defensive scorer. Both matter equally.
these guys have books on them.....scouts, coaches, players....they know them and know them pretty well, better than us. Youre right.....he isnt good on D. Turns the puck over too often and in just braindead ways.....people around the league know this player. Again...Caps are his 4th team

Kaberle wasnt bad last season, nice try though. He might not have been having his best season but he wasnt "bad".

do you really think Wideman being the Caps rep at the all-star game trumps everything else? You must because you keep trumpeting that. Teams dont just erase all the data/scouting they have on a guy because he made an all-star game all of a sudden

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02-27-2012, 11:17 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
If I didn't think they were possible, I wouldn't have written them.
Wideman for a 1st seems quite possible given what Zidlicky got.
Hamrlik for a 2nd is easily possible given that Hammer has played decently well -- and based on trade day talk, it sounds like McPhee might have had better offers.
Knuble for a 3rd also seems possible because this has been a sudden off year after years of steady production and his experience/leadership is still there.
Vokoun for a 2nd & 3rd.. he still has the reputation that he can be elite, for a team like the Flyers that has everything else could easily be worth it.

And since you made me justify those values, please go ahead and post your estimates, too, if you're confident that I'm so far off.
I didnt ask you to justify or if they were possible...I asked if you would make those trades.

people keep pointing to lesser trades for D, use some sort of crazy math, then produce the result of 1st or 1st+...or my fave, 1st ++ when talking about Wideman.

if SJ had moved Dan Boyle (for example) for that kind of return then I think you guys may have something....a team giving up a lot for an offensive minded D.

The logic that if lesser player (Oduya) netted a 2nd/3rd then cleary that means a team would have given up a much bigger package for Wideman doesnt work.

maybe....just maybe playoff bound teams didnt want to give up that much for a skilled but poor defensive player, who is a pending UFA, for a playoff run...especailly when they could add depth for a much smalled price

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Old
02-27-2012, 11:22 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
You honestly think the return for Zidlicky was good?
For Minny? Yes. Talent is depreciating and didn't want to be there.

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Old
02-27-2012, 11:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
He sucks at defense and gets most of his points on the powerplay.
PAUL GAUSTAD got a 1st.
Dennis Wideman is 5th in scoring in Defense (above people like Chara, Boyle, Pieterangelo, Yandle, Suter, Keith) and was selected as an all-star (NOT by fans, so that does have some weight.)

Looking at that, do you still not think he would have gotten a good return? Please.
If Tomas Kaberle got a 1st, 2nd, and Colborne, Wideman would have for sure gotten something similar.
Definitely not, but I believe he would have returned a 1st and either another lower pick (like a 5th) or a lesser prospect.

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02-27-2012, 11:24 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
From first topic...
HSHS:


You would rather have Wideman than those 3?
Come on. He SUCKS, and he's going to want a **** load.
Kaberle is even worse and look what he got. If GMGM declared Wideman was available, he would get a lot.
We better not resign Wideman to a big contract, which he will demand because of his stats.
He sucks. But teams would pay a lot for him because he would have been the best player on the market.
It's not what I'd want... But what I say by "better" it means he had a longer term plan in today.

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02-27-2012, 11:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
You honestly think the return for Zidlicky was good?
For a guy who was a regular healthy scratch signed for another year at $4 million. Hell yeah.

Zidlicky is the equivalent of Hamrlik cap and situation-wise. I'd have been thrilled to get a couple picks and marginal prospects for him.

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Old
02-27-2012, 11:32 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Knuble for a 3rd also seems possible because this has been a sudden off year after years of steady production ...
With Knuble, nothing is 'sudden.' 'Deliberate and plodding' yes; 'sudden,' no.

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Old
02-27-2012, 11:46 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
I didnt ask you to justify or if they were possible...I asked if you would make those trades.

people keep pointing to lesser trades for D, use some sort of crazy math, then produce the result of 1st or 1st+...or my fave, 1st ++ when talking about Wideman.

if SJ had moved Dan Boyle (for example) for that kind of return then I think you guys may have something....a team giving up a lot for an offensive minded D.

The logic that if lesser player (Oduya) netted a 2nd/3rd then cleary that means a team would have given up a much bigger package for Wideman doesnt work.

maybe....just maybe playoff bound teams didnt want to give up that much for a skilled but poor defensive player, who is a pending UFA, for a playoff run...especailly when they could add depth for a much smalled price
Asking whether I personally would've made those trades is pretty irrelevant because, among other things, I would've probably sold off Green, which should tell you what I think about highly paid offensive defensemen that are prone to making blunders on defense. But hey, the Caps seem to be holding on to Green just fine, so that tells me at least some NHL GMs can be quite fond of players that I'd run away from. Incidentally, the other trades I can see myself making no problem if I were the GM of certain teams.

As far as making inferences based on other deals, nobody says it's an exact science, but it's certainly supporting evidence. Kaberle got a 1st + very good prospect (+ conditional). In a seller's market, after a very good offensive year, I don't see how Wideman would be worth so much less so as to get not even half of that.


Last edited by artilector: 02-27-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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Old
02-28-2012, 01:12 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
You honestly think the return for Zidlicky was good?
A 2nd, conditional 3rd, NHL-ready prospect, and roster filler for a 35 year-old defenseman who's clearly on the downside of his career and has another year at $4M remaining? Yeah, absolutely a good return. Especially considering he requested a trade. Zidlicky has zero goals on the season, and he's an offensive defenseman and powerplay guy.

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02-28-2012, 01:30 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by IafrateOvie34 View Post
Lou has a knack for finding players that help his teams and taking gambles. Mogilny, Malakhov just to name a few had attitude issues and contributed greatly for his past teams. He took gambles on them and they paid off. The guy really is a hockey GM wizard.

Lou is serious in a way that McPhee isn't.

Lou is obsessed with winning the Cup and he is genuinely angry at himself, at the world, at God, when the Devils don't win it all. He doesn't care about "community service" or "the public good" when he signs players. He wants to win the ****ing Stanley Cup again and again.

The great managers--the multiple-Cup winners--are that way.

The whole organization ought to be filled with that attitude. The Caps are not like that. We all know it. I don't say it's a country club or a college fraternity but it's not a monomaniacal organization like the great organizations are.

It's Purgatory.

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02-28-2012, 01:40 AM
  #67
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back to reality,now that the sting of standing pat has dwindled, let`s make the effing playoffs !

speaking of the playoffs,and thanks to txpd....I think our playoff avatars should reflect purgatory in some manner !

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02-28-2012, 01:42 AM
  #68
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playoff avatars? are you kidding?

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Old
02-28-2012, 02:37 AM
  #69
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playoff avatars? are you kidding?
I've had my playoff avatar for a long while now.

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02-28-2012, 07:21 AM
  #70
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me too.

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02-28-2012, 07:57 AM
  #71
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My conspiracy theory:

Ted, knowing the jury is out on George, let him know he should not sell futures seeing as how this is probably not their year.

He tells George he can, however, sell some assets as it is a sellers market.

Naturally George figures his job is on the line and that draft picks will do him no good.

He asks for roster players (as reported the return he wanted Hamrlik - young player) and the other team balks. He asks for the moon in order to try to make a "hockey deal" so they can better be prepared to "win now"

No team takes the bait.

George doesn't want draft picks as in his mind those will just diminish the teams depth and thus lower the chances of making/succeeding in the playoffs.

This would go along to what I had forseen prior to this day. To me its clear that George's job is in danger and he knows it. To me Ted told him there will be no "save your bacon/desperation trades" in the cards this year (trading young assets for high cap hit vets)

It would have clearly been wiser to get rid of guys like Hamrlik and Knuble at the very least. But to George that would hurt his chances of retaining his job since that relies on the success on ice the remainder of the year and having depth can only help that.

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02-28-2012, 07:59 AM
  #72
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I do not think Ted is a smart owner. I like the guy but he is still a n00b in the owner business. I don't see him saying any of those things to George.

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02-28-2012, 08:01 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Asking whether I personally would've made those trades is pretty irrelevant because, among other things, I would've probably sold off Green, which should tell you what I think about highly paid offensive defensemen that are prone to making blunders on defense. But hey, the Caps seem to be holding on to Green just fine, so that tells me at least some NHL GMs can be quite fond of players that I'd run away from. Incidentally, the other trades I can see myself making no problem if I were the GM of certain teams.

As far as making inferences based on other deals, nobody says it's an exact science, but it's certainly supporting evidence. Kaberle got a 1st + very good prospect (+ conditional). In a seller's market, after a very good offensive year, I don't see how Wideman would be worth so much less so as to get not even half of that.
I would look to move Green too....and not because I think he stinks. Ive said this for over a year.....he makes too much for a guy that plays like he does in his own end. I dont think he has improved that part of his game as much as others. Add to that...actually more importantly is, he makes some really bad decisions with the puck....the same type of bad decisions that he made when he was a younger player....I just dont thik he is that smart a hockey player (at least to warrant his salary)

At the same deadline that Kaberle returned that (last year) Wideman returned a 3rd and a throw away prospect...that was 1 year ago. Now he is worth a kings ransom? Wideman isnt showing anything new this season that teams havent seen over his career (spanning 4 teams). Kaberle was always seen as more a complete player and a legit #1 dman. Wideman is not that and isnt viewed that way...even today.

As good a season (points wise) as he is having he still isnt at his career best in G, A, or points. He is the smae player he was last season when he returned far less than people are saying he could have brought in this season. Not to mention he is a UFA now...last season, when he was much cheaper on the trade market he still had another year on his contract.

last season he had 9-24-33 when traded
this season he has 10-28-38 at deadline

His +/- isnt as terrible this season as last but thats irrelevant. Teams are well aware of what he brings in the D zone....and its not good

I just dont see how people think he is worth soooo much more one year later.

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:04 AM
  #74
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On Wideman - is there any chance we can afford to resign him after the season with out dumping hamrliks or wards salary?

and other then jeff carter trade no 1st rounders were traded. If highest offer was a 2nd rounder for wideman i can understand GMGM valuing him more for the playoff run then another 2nd.

Not dumping hamrliks 3.5 mill contract is a head scratcher. leads me to believe he has negitive value and no one wanted the bum.

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02-28-2012, 08:05 AM
  #75
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I do not think Ted is a smart owner. I like the guy but he is still a n00b in the owner business. I don't see him saying any of those things to George.
You don't get to where Ted is in life by being dumb.

I had some email discussions with him prior to the draft and it was clear he had no intentions of mortgaging the future to win now. I'm sure he and George had discussions.

I'm sure he knew that if he told George that his job was on the line then George would indeed trade away futures.

To me its actually very logical that what I laid out is EXACTLY what happened.

If we make the playoffs and win a round or two (very possible) then George keeps his job.

Miss the playoffs then George will be fired.

Make the playoffs and get ousted? Who knows....I guess it depends on the fashion in which we lose.

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