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Less and less talent on this team, anybody else worried?

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:53 AM
  #101
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The sad thing about this is going into this season, I genuinely thought depth scoring would be one of our strengths. Sure we lacked PPG talent, but with the addition of Cole and emergence of Pacioretty it looked like we finally had a team capable of 5 on 5 play. And it looked like things were working out, even with the awful start we still have had all season long better 5 on 5 scoring than we had in years. The power play and weak defense killed us for once. If only the power play functioned, and we had a healthy Gionta and Cammalleri in the top 6, who knows what would have happened.

Cammalleri was a soft, lazy cancer, and Kostitsyn was a frustration with no hockey sense, but all of a sudden our depth scoring is nothing.
Depth was a strength coming into this season. We could roll 3 offensive lines, and for once in a long time, we did not have to search for players to complete the top5. We were talking about a top9.

We had a bad start under Martin, but our ES scoring was still good, especially our scoring ratio.
Management tried to fix the PP woes, but opted for the wrong option. Kaberle was not the solution.
But then, the season changing decision was to replace a coach that had control of the team for one that is absolutely clueless about coaching. It was all downhill from there on out.

I don't buy the "cammalleri" cancer crap. He wasn't having a good year, but everything he said was spot on.

After all is said and done, we no longer have the luxury of having a top9. We are back to who can complete the top6.

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02-28-2012, 08:56 AM
  #102
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Lines with size ...

Grigorenko Plekanec Gionta
Cole Desharnais Pacioretty
Cammalleri Eller Kostitsyn

I know we have cap space but... If we look at the ufa this year... We could offer the bank for either Parise or Suter but with the way our organisation went this year I think we pretty much shut ourself in the foot in that regard.

If not one of these 2... Well... Let's just say that there are not a lot of good ufa this summer.

We could have made the Cammalleri trade this summer or some other trade if money really needed to be had to the salary cap if Suter or Parise would have wanted to join us.

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02-28-2012, 08:59 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
Lines with size ...

Grigorenko Plekanec Gionta
Cole Desharnais Pacioretty
Cammalleri Eller Kostitsyn

I know we have cap space but... If we look at the ufa this year... We could offer the bank for either Parise or Suter but with the way our organisation went this year I think we pretty much shut ourself in the foot in that regard.

If not one of these 2... Well... Let's just say that there are not a lot of good ufa this summer.

We could have made the Cammalleri trade this summer or some other trade if money really needed to be had to the salary cap if Suter or Parise would have wanted to join us.
I'm confused.... cam and AK are gone....Grigorenko unavailable til draft.... what timeline did this scenario happen

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02-28-2012, 09:03 AM
  #104
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The sooner you guys accept the 2012-2013 tank, the better. I am looking forward to it. A strong 2013 (and 2012, needless to say) draft is what this franchise needs. Hoping to sell our garbage for great returns and landing every single prized UFA is delusional.

Essentially, you guys want to repeat what got us in this mess. Overspend on perceived great UFAs, sell low on trades and whine about the accumulation of picks.

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02-28-2012, 09:07 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
The sooner you guys accept the 2012-2013 tank, the better. I am looking forward to it. A strong 2013 (and 2012, needless to say) draft is what this franchise needs. Hoping to sell our garbage for great returns and landing every single prized UFA is delusional.

Essentially, you guys want to repeat what got us in this mess. Overspend on perceived great UFAs, sell low on trades and whine about the accumulation of picks.
I have a feeling that it's going to be the same crap next season. With a chance at McKinnon, I'm not complaining but, if we do, we have no reason for Plekanec here. We'll have too many of the same type of player (we already do).

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02-28-2012, 09:09 AM
  #106
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My line up was a what if line up...

I was just trying to make my point that we weren't that far off and now we are...

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02-28-2012, 09:12 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
I have a feeling that it's going to be the same crap next season. With a chance at McKinnon, I'm not complaining but, if we do, we have no reason for Plekanec here. We'll have too many of the same type of player (we already do).
I'd rather we stay put and fail than overspend and fail...

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02-28-2012, 09:18 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Bourque is third liner. We need a need a second/first liner.

And I hope we will see Plekanec with at least one of Cole and Pacioretty next season. If we get a good coach, we probably will.
Pretty damn good third liner..Andrei K has 47 goals the last three, and Rene Bourque has 71.... If all our third liners would score 27 goals a season we would win the Stanley Cup every year.

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02-28-2012, 09:28 AM
  #109
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With Cammalleri and Kostitsyn now gone and Bourque and whoever (Palushaj, Geoffrion?) to take their places this team is losing in the skill area. I imagine the spectacle will be elsewhere.
Who knows, maybe the plan is to try and get the 1st overall next year, instead of fail or nail we can have the restate for Nate.

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02-28-2012, 09:54 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Emanresu Wen View Post
With Cammalleri and Kostitsyn now gone and Bourque and whoever (Palushaj, Geoffrion?) to take their places this team is losing in the skill area.
But SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE!

Yep, it's a worrying trend. The Cammy trade was entirely unnecessary and the Habs should have hung onto AKost.

They're going to need to make up for it in the offseason, but the pickings are looking to be slim... they may have trouble spending all their budget.

The secret to building a team is simple, in the end: find good players and keep them. It made Detroit into a perennial juggernaut. Montreal seems to be having trouble with the second part.

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02-28-2012, 10:03 AM
  #111
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I think the Habs should add an offensive QB dman and a top line winger in the offseason. I heard Andrei Markov and Brian Gionta are available.

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02-28-2012, 10:07 AM
  #112
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It's true that we needed size and toughness, but we still need to score goals. Hope management gets it done.

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02-28-2012, 10:20 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Emanresu Wen View Post
With Cammalleri and Kostitsyn now gone and Bourque and whoever (Palushaj, Geoffrion?) to take their places this team is losing in the skill area.

Cammalleri was a great sniper. Kostitsyn, while having less hockey IQ, did show some dangling and flashy moves when he felt like it.

I imagine the spectacle will be elsewhere.
Its the Houle era all over again.

All we need now is to draft a Chouinard, Vallis, or Jason Ward

Gauthier is a loser.

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02-28-2012, 10:30 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
But SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE!

Yep, it's a worrying trend. The Cammy trade was entirely unnecessary and the Habs should have hung onto AKost.

They're going to need to make up for it in the offseason, but the pickings are looking to be slim... they may have trouble spending all their budget.

The secret to building a team is simple, in the end: find good players and keep them. It made Detroit into a perennial juggernaut. Montreal seems to be having trouble with the second part.
Montreal doesn't have players anywhere near as skilled as Detroit's and we haven't for a long time. Detroit has had superstars and we haven't.

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02-28-2012, 10:53 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
But SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE!

Yep, it's a worrying trend. The Cammy trade was entirely unnecessary and the Habs should have hung onto AKost.They're going to need to make up for it in the offseason, but the pickings are looking to be slim... they may have trouble spending all their budget.

The secret to building a team is simple, in the end: find good players and keep them. It made Detroit into a perennial juggernaut. Montreal seems to be having trouble with the second part.
We got an equally productive player, a 2nd round in 2013 and nearly 3M$ in cap space. I'd do that deal over and over again. And yes, size.

Yes, they may have trouble spending all their budget, but how is that a bad thing? If the targeted players aren't available, we should stay put. Spending for the sake of spending is the worst thing you can do in the cap era.

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02-28-2012, 10:54 AM
  #116
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Yup, I think it'll be a while before we're a contending team.

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02-28-2012, 11:08 AM
  #117
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Draft Russians.

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02-28-2012, 11:16 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
But SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE!

Yep, it's a worrying trend. The Cammy trade was entirely unnecessary and the Habs should have hung onto AKost.

They're going to need to make up for it in the offseason, but the pickings are looking to be slim... they may have trouble spending all their budget.

The secret to building a team is simple, in the end: find good players and keep them. It made Detroit into a perennial juggernaut. Montreal seems to be having trouble with the second part.
If by Montreal you mean Gainey/Gauthier then I agree with you. The problems of "Montreal" are overstated, the problem has been bad assessment of talent.

Red wings are the model for find/retain stability. That's precisely why Montreal should poach from that organization.

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02-28-2012, 11:25 AM
  #119
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But... HF boards told me if we added toughness and size we'd be a contender

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02-28-2012, 11:29 AM
  #120
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But... HF boards told me if we added toughness and size we'd be a contender
We need both. Sorry but you can't have a line of Gomez, Gionta and Cammy... it's just not going to work.

We've tried to win with small teams and it hasn't worked. And for all the talk of us trying to win on skill... that's ludicrous. Our skilled guys aren't close to what other clubs have had. Alexi Kovalev is the closest we've had to an elite player. We sit here and talk about how it's our skill vs. the size of other clubs. Well, the best clubs have had more size AND skill than we have so I'm not sure what the apologists are trying to say here.

We don't have to be the biggest team but we should try to avoid being the smallest. Getting some top end talent for once sure would help too.

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02-28-2012, 11:31 AM
  #121
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It was ALWAYS about having the greatest mix possible. Not sure why this has to be repeated over and over again. People wanted size, 'cause we didn't have any. Hence the mix.

We do need top-end talent to go with the size to be a succesful team.

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02-28-2012, 11:50 AM
  #122
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It was ALWAYS about having the greatest mix possible. Not sure why this has to be repeated over and over again. People wanted size, 'cause we didn't have any. Hence the mix.

We do need top-end talent to go with the size to be a succesful team.
Nothing more than this needs to be said, dont need to keep going back and forth on the issue. This is the Bruins, the Flyers, its not their formula, its common sense in todays NHL.

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02-28-2012, 11:54 AM
  #123
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We got an equally productive player, a 2nd round in 2013 and nearly 3M$ in cap space. I'd do that deal over and over again. And yes, size.
Bourque is nowhere near as good as Cammalleri, and short-term variations in production do not change that. Nevermind the, frankly, foolishness on judging a player by the sole metrics of goals and points (oh, and I'm sorry, also inches and pounds).

In many ways Bourque is the Andrei Kostitsyn replacement. The two players seem to be of a similar caliber, more or less. Is AK as good as Cammy?

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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Yes, they may have trouble spending all their budget, but how is that a bad thing? If the targeted players aren't available, we should stay put. Spending for the sake of spending is the worst thing you can do in the cap era.
I understand where the obsession with free cap space comes from, but it has to be kept into perspective. It's not that cost-efficiency isn't valuable, of course, but at the same time, unused cap space provides no immediate value whatsoever. The cap keeps raising to the point where it is much less of a limiting factor than it used to be, vis-a-vis availability of talent (and team budget for teams that aren't the Habs and their ilk).

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02-28-2012, 12:29 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Bourque is nowhere near as good as Cammalleri, and short-term variations in production do not change that. Nevermind the, frankly, foolishness on judging a player by the sole metrics of goals and points (oh, and I'm sorry, also inches and pounds).

In many ways Bourque is the Andrei Kostitsyn replacement. The two players seem to be of a similar caliber, more or less. Is AK as good as Cammy?



I understand where the obsession with free cap space comes from, but it has to be kept into perspective. It's not that cost-efficiency isn't valuable, of course, but at the same time, unused cap space provides no immediate value whatsoever. The cap keeps raising to the point where it is much less of a limiting factor than it used to be, vis-a-vis availability of talent (and team budget for teams that aren't the Habs and their ilk).
Unless you have a great playmaking center, Cammy's value is worth a lot less to a team. Which is what we seem to excel at, a scorer without someone to give him the puck is just a floater. Ditto for AK, but maybe it will be different for Bourque.

First we need a clue, then we can figure out what we need before we go out shopping.

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02-28-2012, 12:39 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Bourque is nowhere near as good as Cammalleri, and short-term variations in production do not change that. Nevermind the, frankly, foolishness on judging a player by the sole metrics of goals and points (oh, and I'm sorry, also inches and pounds).

In many ways Bourque is the Andrei Kostitsyn replacement. The two players seem to be of a similar caliber, more or less. Is AK as good as Cammy?



I understand where the obsession with free cap space comes from, but it has to be kept into perspective. It's not that cost-efficiency isn't valuable, of course, but at the same time, unused cap space provides no immediate value whatsoever. The cap keeps raising to the point where it is much less of a limiting factor than it used to be, vis-a-vis availability of talent (and team budget for teams that aren't the Habs and their ilk).
Bourque has more points than Cammy over the last two years and a half, but has a lower ppg ratio (0.62 vs 0.68). Cammy is on pace for his first season with more than 67 games since 2009. Good for him!

I personally do not mind trading 0.06 ppg for 3M$ cap space and a 2nd round in the 2013 draft. Considering that the Habs were terrible with Cammalleri, I can't say that his presence was crucial to the team's success.

Unused cap space provides no immediate value, but it allows to buy UFAs in the summer. That unused cap space might land Parise. If it doesn't, it might land next year's big UFA, or it can be filled via trades. ''Immediate value'' is overrated. I'd rather have unused cap space than the immediate value provided by Gionta or Kaberle...

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