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sad day for me as a long time habs fan

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Old
02-28-2012, 12:26 PM
  #51
Andy
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Didn't the habs have Eller, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Weber, White and Subban all graduate as full timers last season and this? That will make a dent in anyone's prospect pool.

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Old
02-28-2012, 12:28 PM
  #52
yianik
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For where we draft our drafting has been great under Timmins overall. The goal for any team is to get 2 players who can play in the NHL out of every draft, clearly 1 of the 2 need to be top half players. We have done much better than that. The problem has been player development and retaining talent. Think about it, our terrible D. If we had Mcdonaough and Obyrne wed have a top 2 , two way dman and a big physical bottom pairing dman. Our d would be okay even without Markov. Offensively we have given away SK, Dags' AK, Lats, all 20 goal guys if healthyand played properly. Nice. Lousy asset management.

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02-28-2012, 12:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
This team is missing a PP QB (Markov), Top line big center, and a tough stay at home Dman. Then of course a good coach and GM. The prospect pool is pretty good, especially after this years draft, so the habs arn't so far from being a contender as the standings indicate.

Think of New Jersey last season
We afre ranked 28th out of 30 in teh prospects department ahead of only Calgary and San Jose that speaks volumes. Our prospect pool is full of career AHLers and fringe NHLers.

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02-28-2012, 12:31 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Kostitsyn has no uses on a team:

Bad on the PP
Doesn't play on the PK
And even while facing sub-par opposition, he's too weak defensively to be a valuable player 5 on 5.

We haven't lost anything.

Edit: And anyone who has ever played hockey knows that players like Kostitsyn and Pouliot, who generally float around, something getting on hot streaks when they fell good, aren't the kind of players you want as teammates.
Its not just AK its all the players we've let go that we were all so happy about having as our prospects. There are lots of players out there who would look good playing for the habs that have moved on and doing well in their new location.

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02-28-2012, 12:34 PM
  #55
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I'm so tired of the Philly reference.

What they did was trade their biggest star for futures, which they partially used to acquire upcoming FAs, signed a key FA, fleeced Atlanta/TB and acquired a starting goalie.

The FA class blows once Parise and Suter are gone, and our organization has shown no willingness to make a roster shakeup (1 minor trade on deadline day when 15th). There is 0 chance we make a similar turnaround, at least, in the same fashion. We'd need MASSIVE internal growth.
Then what about NJ?

What about Carolina? Tampa Bay?

The league is chalk full of these examples.

The NHL has turned into a freaking lottery, the vast majority of teams are pretty much equal. A couple moves there, a couple move here and you could fall from the top to the bottom or vice versa.

BTW, you don't make roster shakeups on deadline day IMO, both because of lack of willing trading partners and inordinate values on players.

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02-28-2012, 12:35 PM
  #56
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Let just say that we don't see any real top-end talent. Though people will say we don't draft at a position to get one. Which is not far from the truth, yet there's always some possibilities to still do so but it is much more difficult.

Yet, I kinda have some faith that a guy like Kristo will end up a top 6 player. Same for Beaulieu who will be top-4. And the unknown factor is Gallagher. As for the rest, some great to average depth all-around. You will need those guys. But they might not be the ones you'd need to go further. I do like the overall shape of our D's with the usual suspects added with Bennett, Dietz and my boy Ellis. It's just in front that it's really not that brillant. And in goal well, that's awful but we have that luxury with Price. Though we have to start addressing it.

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02-28-2012, 12:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
For where we draft our drafting has been great under Timmins overall. The goal for any team is to get 2 players who can play in the NHL out of every draft, clearly 1 of the 2 need to be top half players. We have done much better than that. The problem has been player development and retaining talent. Think about it, our terrible D. If we had Mcdonaough and Obyrne wed have a top 2 , two way dman and a big physical bottom pairing dman. Our d would be okay even without Markov. Offensively we have given away SK, Dags' AK, Lats, all 20 goal guys if healthyand played properly. Nice. Lousy asset management.
Let's forget about O'byrne, the guy can't even think his way out of a wet paper bag.

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02-28-2012, 12:36 PM
  #58
Kjell Dahlin
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So a top line winger and starting goaltender are out of the league from that team. A top pairing d-man is a healthy scratch on a bubble playoff team. I understand stability, but keeping a core from that team does not put the Habs further ahead than they are now. There are no top line players in the league that played on that team, Pleks is probably the best. Streit could be a top-4 defenseman, but he never played D in the NHL until he left Montreal (should be listed as 4th line forward here anyways).

There is little that should be left from a team that was filled with a bunch of tweeners.
Stability was the key word but (1) that bunch of "tweeners" got 104 points and (2) I think you are seriously underrating, in their respective roles, Streit, Koivu, Latendresse, Lapierre, Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn, Bouillon, Kostopoulos and Andrei Kostitsyn (Gauthier obtained good return for Halak and O'Byrne so I won't add their names to this list) when you wrote: "... There is little that should be left from a team that was filled with a bunch of tweeners.".

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02-28-2012, 12:38 PM
  #59
The n00b King
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You guys are severely overrating our prospect pool.

Eller only becomes Plekanec in the best case scenario. Leblanc, probably less. It's a sideways move at best, because by that time Plekanec won't be as good, or he'll be traded for a 2nd round draft pick.

If we're lucky, only one of Tinordi/Beaulieu becomes a top-4 dman. By that time Gorges will be on the wrong side of 30 and Markov on the wrong side of 35. Most defensemen drafted in the 1st round don't pan out. It's a dice roll not a sure thing, and the dice is weighted towards "bust". The same Trevor Timmins who drafted Ryan McDonagh drafted David Fischer the year before.

Gallagher? I'm not looking forward to Gallagher-Desharnais-Gionta as our 2nd line.

Bournival? Kristo? Geoffrion? lol.

Ryan White? He's Gregory Stewart without the fighting ability.

What we're missing is a legit 1st line center with size, a shutdown dman who is good enough for the 1st pairing, a 3rd line shutdown center, a good coach, and a good GM. However, that's what every bad team in the NHL is missing.
Actually...Fisher wasn't a Timmins pick. I don't remember the quote, but I believe this was a Gainey pick. Not only that, but if you look at the year he was drafted, that was a TERRIBLE 1st round draft. Outside the top 6, not a player is an impact player save for Giroux. And everyone skipped over that guy save for the Flyers...

Timmins has done a tremedous job drafting NHLers. Absolutely unbelievable. Sure, not really any superstars (save perhaps Pax), but solid players all around. The guy is magic.

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02-28-2012, 12:39 PM
  #60
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Let's forget about O'byrne, the guy can't even think his way out of a wet paper bag.
Yeah man, Ivy Leaguer very stupid.

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02-28-2012, 12:40 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
We afre ranked 28th out of 30 in teh prospects department ahead of only Calgary and San Jose that speaks volumes. Our prospect pool is full of career AHLers and fringe NHLers.
You realize we were ranked 7th overall a few years ago. These rankings change all the time depending on who graduated, who just got drafted, etc etc.

These rankings also don't mean anything. Im sure if you do an organization ranking of all teams using players under 25 (not just prospects) Montreal would be pretty high up there with Price,Subban,Pac,Eller.

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02-28-2012, 12:40 PM
  #62
Et le But
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Then what about NJ?

What about Carolina? Tampa Bay?

The league is chalk full of these examples.

The NHL has turned into a freaking lottery, the vast majority of teams are pretty much equal. A couple moves there, a couple move here and you could fall from the top to the bottom or vice versa.

BTW, you don't make roster shakeups on deadline day IMO, both because of lack of willing trading partners and inordinate values on players.
If anything there's more example of teams having terrible seasons and rebounding than there are teams who sucked for so long that they became powerhouses because of their draft picks in recent years.

The league has far too much parity right now to expect kids to thrive on team that's going to be awful for the next 4 years. Chicago and Pittsburgh lucked out, Washington never went anywhere, Florida has only started to put it together for the first time since the 90s, while the Oilers and Islanders still can't even make the playoffs.

Right now there's only 3 teams that aren't serious competition, the rest of the league is so close that one bad move - such as replacing your coach with a guy over his head before a road trip, is the difference between a playoff team and a lotto team.

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Old
02-28-2012, 12:40 PM
  #63
Andy
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Let just say that we don't see any real top-end talent. Though people will say we don't draft at a position to get one. Which is not far from the truth, yet there's always some possibilities to still do so but it is much more difficult.

Yet, I kinda have some faith that a guy like Kristo will end up a top 6 player. Same for Beaulieu who will be top-4. And the unknown factor is Gallagher. As for the rest, some great to average depth all-around. You will need those guys. But they might not be the ones you'd need to go further. I do like the overall shape of our D's with the usual suspects added with Bennett, Dietz and my boy Ellis. It's just in front that it's really not that brillant. And in goal well, that's awful but we have that luxury with Price. Though we have to start addressing it.
You also need to remember(and I'm sure you out of all people do) that not many people pegged Pacioretty to be in a position he is in now. I and many others thought he would develop into a good two-way passing complimentary winger. He turned into the opposite: a speedy big-bodied goal scoring forward.

The point is that development is a nebulous thing. One guy starts developing at a rate not expected and it changes the whole pool.

Next year in Hamilton we'll see Leblanc, Kristo, Gallagher, Bournival Tinordi, Ellis, Bennett and hopefully Beaulieu. Like you said, there is good depth here outside of Kristo, Leblanc and Beaulieu, but you never know who's development might take a positive turn.

Also like I said previously, the dent in our prospect pool didn't help when 6 of our best prospects graduated to the nhl last season.

I think the 2008 draft really hurt the prospect pool temporarily. With the high pick this year and the two 2nds along with Timmins at the fore, I'm really not worried(unless they fire Timmins if they they fire the current managemen team).

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02-28-2012, 12:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Let's forget about O'byrne, the guy can't even think his way out of a wet paper bag.
LOL, okay. Just saying that we need more muscle on the back end and a player willing to use it and play 13-15 minutes a game. For me, Obyrne could have done that and not been a liability.

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02-28-2012, 12:42 PM
  #65
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Yeah man, Ivy Leaguer very stupid.
I was obviously talking about his hockey IQ, couldn't care less how bright the guy was.

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02-28-2012, 12:43 PM
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LOL, okay. Just saying that we need more muscle on the back end and a player willing to use it and play 13-15 minutes a game. For me, Obyrne could have done that and not been a liability.
Emelin is far superior in less than half a season than O'byrne was his entire career with Montreal.

Physical #6-7 defensemen are incredibly cheap, and dime a dozen players.

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02-28-2012, 12:44 PM
  #67
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You also need to remember(and I'm sure you out of all people do) that not many people pegged Pacioretty to be in a position he is in now. I and many others thought he would develop into a good two-way passing complimentary winger. He turned into the opposite: a speedy big-bodied goal scoring forward.

Development is a nebulous thing.

Next year in Hamilton we'll see Leblanc, Kristo, Gallagher, Bournival Tinordi, Ellis, Bennett and hopefully Beaulieu. Like you said, there is good depth here outside of Kristo, Leblanc and Beaulieu, but you never know who's development might take a positive turn.

Also like I said previously, the dent in our prospect pool didn't help when 6 of our best prospects graduated to the nhl last season.

I think the 2008 draft really hurt the prospect pool temporarily. With the high pick this year and the two 2nds along with Timmins at the fore, I'm really not worried(unless they fire Timmins if they they fire the current managemen team).
Dont even think that, without Timmins wed be drafting last for sure, for the next decade.

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02-28-2012, 12:44 PM
  #68
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LOL, okay. Just saying that we need more muscle on the back end and a player willing to use it and play 13-15 minutes a game. For me, Obyrne could have done that and not been a liability.

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02-28-2012, 12:48 PM
  #69
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I was obviously talking about his hockey IQ, couldn't care less how bright the guy was.
You're on the West coast, you should check the Avs games.

He was really good this year. He'd easily be playing top 4 minutes for us right now and we'd be a much better team for it.

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02-28-2012, 12:49 PM
  #70
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in other words: "im gonna go ahead and the smallest line ever in fantasy land to make my point stronger."

flawless victory
His point still holds. You may not see them on one line but we're still counting on those 3 players on being with the team. What NHL team is hoping to have 3 forwards that small with a back end consisting of Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and maybe even Campoli.

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02-28-2012, 12:54 PM
  #71
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Just give me Grigorenko or Yakupov and i am happy.
then run him out of town because he was not developed properly....

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02-28-2012, 01:02 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
If anything there's more example of teams having terrible seasons and rebounding than there are teams who sucked for so long that they became powerhouses because of their draft picks in recent years.

The league has far too much parity right now to expect kids to thrive on team that's going to be awful for the next 4 years. Chicago and Pittsburgh lucked out, Washington never went anywhere, Florida has only started to put it together for the first time since the 90s, while the Oilers and Islanders still can't even make the playoffs.

Right now there's only 3 teams that aren't serious competition, the rest of the league is so close that one bad move - such as replacing your coach with a guy over his head before a road trip, is the difference between a playoff team and a lotto team.
Agreed.

You don't even have to look further than our own team to realize this.

One year we are 1st in the conference, then the next with virtually the same team (we even added good players) we barely scrape into the playoffs.

One year we make the conference finals, the next we are within 1 goal of beating the Stanley Cup champions, then the next we are in last place in the conference.

The sooner people realize that the NHL is nothing but a glorified crap shoot, the quicker they can lower expectations or demands on their NHL club.

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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
You're on the West coast, you should check the Avs games.

He was really good this year. He'd easily be playing top 4 minutes for us right now and we'd be a much better team for it.
I am not on the West Coast anymore.

O'byrne will never be more than a fringe NHL defensemen in my eyes until he proves me otherwise.

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02-28-2012, 01:12 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
So does that make today the darkest day in Habs history?
no its the cumulative effect, AK taken in the first round was the first mistake when other better players were availabe. Lookng back at all the mistakes management have made and not looking forward to the current group drafting, and possibly making the same mistakes with our current group of prosects!

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02-28-2012, 01:14 PM
  #74
yianik
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Emelin is far superior in less than half a season than O'byrne was his entire career with Montreal.

Physical #6-7 defensemen are incredibly cheap, and dime a dozen players.
ON Emelin, bloody hell hes alot better, but I see Emelin on the top 4, not as a bottom pairing guy. You would think physical 6 or 7 dmen would be a dime a dozen, but we cant seem to find one that can stick.

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02-28-2012, 01:39 PM
  #75
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His point still holds. You may not see them on one line but we're still counting on those 3 players on being with the team. What NHL team is hoping to have 3 forwards that small with a back end consisting of Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and maybe even Campoli.
his stated time frame was two years: i've already said that gionta's contract will be over by the time gallagher is ready to play in the nhl (unless he surprises everybody and makes it next year). so that leaves dd and gallagher. not the end of the world.

the backend is small/soft but you are doing the same exaggerating the same way he was: campoli won't be re-signed past this season (i'd ****ing hope so), if kaberle isn't traded, his contract will also be over at the same gionta's is. weber i don't see him here much longer but you never know. if the timeframe is two years, plenty of time to fix it. habs need one tough d-man for another year or two until tinordi is ready to take that spot.

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