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[MTL/NSH] A. Kostitsyn for 2nd round pick (2013), our cond'l 5th rounder (2012)

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Old
02-28-2012, 12:31 PM
  #26
SergeConstantin74
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
With less than 20 games left to the regular season, and for the playoffs, Gaustad has more value than AK to a playoff team. You know the steady work Gaustad will bring to your team with grit and faceoff wins. On the other hand, AK is a low risk high reward. UFA values at the trade deadline don't depend on the potential or skill the player can bring but rather the rarity of the player and his importance in playoff push (Guerin(Pitts), Moore(MTL), Kelly(Boston))

Edit: What Yianik says also. Gaustad simply has more value.
Thank you Pierre for your answer.

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02-28-2012, 12:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SergeConstantin74 View Post
It was probably answered before but I just saw it... Why did Buffalo get Nashville's 1st pick for Gaustad and Gauthier could only fetch a 2nd pick for Andrei K.?
Most probably because there was a demand for Gustav,including Detroit, so it probably boosted the price for him. Probably not much demand for AK. But we most likely won't assume that and probably assume PG sucks instead, since its less demanding to understand.

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I obviously haven't gone and checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if that has more to do with him being used in bigger minutes when other guys were injured and thus playing longer on a weaker team, rather than entirely a reflection of his play.
Pretty much this.

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02-28-2012, 12:38 PM
  #28
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Trotz's full quote was fleshed out more than that...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ws|text|Sports

Quote:
“When we got Sergei, I heard nothing but bad things about Sergei — that he couldn’t do this, he couldn’t do that, he couldn’t do this, he’s not going to help you, all those types of things,” Coach Barry Trotz said. “They’re wrong, we’re right — Sergei is one of the best things. We virtually gave up nothing and got our first-line left-winger. … He’s a good player. I expect the same thing of Andrei. I know he’s a terrific talent, and he can play.”

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02-28-2012, 12:44 PM
  #29
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Juneemoon View Post
Trotz's full quote was fleshed out more than that...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ws|text|Sports
Poile and Trotz are great assets for an organization. I heard the Poile interview over his DL moves.

These guys have a clue, our people look like clowns compared to them.

Trotz never said a thing about 'working hard', 'chipping it in' and whatnot, it's assumed that players work hard and fit in what they're doing. They make it their job that it happens. He only talks about his team make-up and finding a place for AK.

We need people like that.

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02-28-2012, 12:58 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Maybe you're right and Pacioretty shows up AK, but it could very well end up being fairly close.
I don't think so. Cole and MaxPac are driving their line, while AKost would only drive if he was on a third line and otherwise was complementary to Plekanec-Cammalleri. Plus MaxPac's shot production screams "consistent 30-goal scorer" at least, while AKost's is more in the 20-25 range.

MaxPac is just a much better player. I don't think it's quite sunk in exactly how good he is, but I think it will.

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02-28-2012, 12:59 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Tony Marinaro ‏ @TonyMarinaro
In past 5yrs when AK46 played 0-12mins Habs winning % 0.542, 12-15mins 0.543, 15-18mins 0.535, 18+ minutes 0.356. Stats courtesy @NHL_Stats.
most random tweet ever

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02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Tony Marinaro ‏ @TonyMarinaro
In past 5yrs when AK46 played 0-12mins Habs winning % 0.542, 12-15mins 0.543, 15-18mins 0.535, 18+ minutes 0.356. Stats courtesy @NHL_Stats.
Breaking news: Offensive players play more when team is trailing, Defensive players play more when team is leading. Don't miss any of this novel, never-before-seen scoop!

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02-28-2012, 01:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Breaking news: Offensive players play more when team is trailing, Defensive players play more when team is leading. Don't miss any of this novel, never-before-seen scoop!
yea that makes the most sense.

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02-28-2012, 01:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Breaking news: Offensive players play more when team is trailing, Defensive players play more when team is leading. Don't miss any of this novel, never-before-seen scoop!
Don't bother MathMan, that kind of analysis is too complex for Marinaro.

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02-28-2012, 01:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Imo next season Andrei Kostitsyn will score more goals than anyone in Habs land.


Edit2:

Btw... I am not a regular follower (I miss La zone on src with Dany Dubé and Gérard Gagnon) but Kostitsyn had his supporters in l'Antichambre. Frankly I think Kostistyn received more flak from the English media during his tenure with us.
Even if this does happen, he had PLENTY of time as a Hab to score many goals. Nothing tells me that he was going to do it as a Hab within the next few years either.

Edit: Max has scored 25 already, on one of the team's worst seasons in recent history. I think he will be able to score more than 30 with the Habs.

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02-28-2012, 01:23 PM
  #36
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I'm not sure that's too accurate.

AK is more polished than Pacioretty, and will be playing with better linemates than he had here (Legwand/Hornqvist) consistently.

Pacioretty and the Desharnais line has been playing relatively soft minutes (softer than AKs), and they're likely to get focused a lot more next year. Nashville is a lot more balanced.

Maybe you're right and Pacioretty shows up AK, but it could very well end up being fairly close.
Pacioretty simply crushed 2nd line competition last year though. He'll produce unless he gets stuck with inadequate line mates on a unit play competition over its head (like Pacioretty-Desharnais/Eller versus 1st line comps).

He's also very likely to get a boost from powerplay production that he effectively didn't get this year due to PP incompetence.


I do however expect AK's numbers to balloon in Nashville simply because he's likely to be a much bigger part of their power play than Montreal's where he's gotten limited minutes.

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02-28-2012, 01:28 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Even if this does happen, he had PLENTY of time as a Hab to score many goals. Nothing tells me that he was going to do it as a Hab within the next few years either.

Edit: Max has scored 25 already, on one of the team's worst seasons in recent history. I think he will be able to score more than 30 with the Habs.
If the Habs has any stability in their lines and have confidence in their players, maybe they would reach their expectations. Why Cole and MP are so great? 1. because DD is a great feeder for them. 2. That line is intact. Put Cole with Plekanec, Max with Gomez and their production will likely drop.

AK was on pace for 30 goals with Eller, limited ice-time and PP.

The only season AK was given a chance to play on the top 6, without changing line every week, he scored 26 goals. See what stability can give a player?

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02-28-2012, 01:30 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Poile and Trotz are great assets for an organization. I heard the Poile interview over his DL moves.

These guys have a clue, our people look like clowns compared to them.

Trotz never said a thing about 'working hard', 'chipping it in' and whatnot, it's assumed that players work hard and fit in what they're doing. They make it their job that it happens. He only talks about his team make-up and finding a place for AK.

We need people like that.
But what has is even really gotten them? One single second round birth in their franchise history?

I realize that the budgetary strengths of the club are not the same, but regardless, it hasn't even brought them any more success, much less in fact.

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02-28-2012, 01:38 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
But what has is even really gotten them? One single second round birth in their franchise history?

I realize that the budgetary strengths of the club are not the same, but regardless, it hasn't even brought them any more success, much less in fact.
you have to put this success thing into perspective...

they've been in the league for only about 12 years
they've been on a tight budget for a long while
they had to developp a new market


but, they're on the rise... they finally won a PO round last season, only missed the PO once in last 7 years, they develop their own players (Erat, Legwand, Suter, Weber, Rinne now Blum, Josi, Hornqvist, Spaling), they'll probably get their 2nd 100 pts season in last 3 years...

and when it comes to stability (roster, coaching staff AND management), they're the closest thing to the Red Wings...

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02-28-2012, 01:46 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you have to put this success thing into perspective...

they've been in the league for only about 12 years
they've been on a tight budget for a long while
they had to developp a new market


but, they're on the rise... they finally won a PO round last season, only missed the PO once in last 7 years, they develop their own players (Erat, Legwand, Suter, Weber, Rinne now Blum, Josi, Hornqvist, Spaling), they'll probably get their 2nd 100 pts season in last 3 years...

and when it comes to stability (roster, coaching staff AND management), they're the closest thing to the Red Wings...
Well for the record, I would not count any years prior to their formation as gauges against the success of the Habs.

Honestly, I find it kind of funny because they are kind of exactly what a lot of Habs fans on here complain about, mediocre with "poor asset management." They often lose their best players to UFA, and they are often in the 4-8 bracket, which apparently to some here is unacceptable.

Whether they are on the rise or not is out of my league, do not follow them enough to know at all. But if they lose one of their big defensemen to free agency, that puts them back down a peg.

People complain about the Habs tendency to go "1 round and out" in the playoffs. Well, the Habs at least have three second round births, and a conference finals birth during the time that they existed. And before this season, how many times did we miss the playoffs since the lockout, once?

This is pretty much a syndrome of "the grass is always greener on the other side."

And once again, just to make it clear I understand that they have much less revenue, but I don't think the comparison is very far off at all.

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02-28-2012, 01:49 PM
  #41
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Ah, I remember when this fan base would have volunteered to drive Kostitsyn to Nashville. Yes indeed, I do remember last Saturday...

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02-28-2012, 01:50 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by donghabs98 View Post
if they really wanted to try and get AK started up to atleast get ore alue play him with eller or pleks

playing with gomez is where player stats frezee
You know, it really wasn't a matter of getting him going. He was doing fine. He was on pace for over 30 goals. He was being praised (even on RDS) for his consistant play. What happened? Randy Cunneyworth happened. He put him on the 4th line with Gomez, benched him, publically berated him and, as you say, his stats froze.

HORRIBLE COACHING. HORRIBLE ASSET MANAGEMENT.

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02-28-2012, 01:51 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Juneemoon View Post
Trotz's full quote was fleshed out more than that...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ws|text|Sports
"When we got Sergei, I heard nothing but bad things about Sergei — that he couldn’t do this, he couldn’t do that, he couldn’t do this, he’s not going to help you, all those types of things,” Coach Barry Trotz said. “They’re wrong, we’re right — Sergei is one of the best things."

There's Montreal-specific problems that other markets don't face and that hurt the team. I don't see these problems going away anytime soon... I'll take the examples of Sergei and Grabovski. I could have taken others. The problem keeps repeating itself.

1-All-encompassing slimy journalism. In the case of Grabovski and Sergei, there was a strong undercurrent of xenophobia added in certain quarters.
-Not a single journalist in Mtl (English or French) defended Grabovski.
-Sergei was libelled by certain journalists to a point were he was one of the most hated figures in the city.

2-Management and coaching staff repeated failures at sticking up for the young players against the slime thrown at them

3-Poor evaluation of player's development curve by management; It gives the impression they start believing the hype.

Result: These players are ripe for picking by headstrong GMs like Burke and Poile who get them for nothing.


Last edited by Erik Estrada: 02-28-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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02-28-2012, 01:53 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Juneemoon View Post
Trotz's full quote was fleshed out more than that...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ws|text|Sports
Comments like those make the Habs look like amateurs. Guess what? Trotz will be making the same comments about AK and laughing at Randy Cunneyworth and Pierre Gauthier.

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02-28-2012, 02:00 PM
  #45
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40 goals is not out of the question for AK46 if he is introduced to the concept of ice time on the power play and more than 10 minutes a game at ES.

Cunneyworth and Martin thought AK46 was the type of player who should play with Scott Gomez on the 4th line.

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02-28-2012, 02:11 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
40 goals is not out of the question for AK46 if he is introduced to the concept of ice time on the power play and more than 10 minutes a game at ES.

Cunneyworth and Martin thought AK46 was the type of player who should play with Scott Gomez on the 4th line.
Kostitsyn doesn't generate enough shots to be a 40-goal scorer without remarkable luck. That's not to say it can never happen (Brad Boyes put up 40 with a jump in s% that Kostitsyn would require) but it's not a likely outcome or one with decent odds.

Post-lockout 40-goal scorers have all had more than 200 shots in the season they scored 40, Kostitsyn's career high is 196.

That's not to say it makes him useless, 20-25 goal types who play responsible defense aren't that plentiful on the free agent market and even trading for them could be difficult to do. I think the comparable UFAs this year are Brad Boyes and Dustin Penner though both are suffering from horrible s% seasons.

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02-28-2012, 02:15 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
40 goals is not out of the question for AK46 if he is introduced to the concept of ice time on the power play and more than 10 minutes a game at ES.

Cunneyworth and Martin thought AK46 was the type of player who should play with Scott Gomez on the 4th line.
I really doubt Andrei will ever hit 40 goals in a season in his career.

And it has already been stated that Martin used Andrei wisely this season until he got canned (on pace for 30 goals).

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02-28-2012, 02:16 PM
  #48
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Kostitsyn doesn't generate enough shots to be a 40-goal scorer without remarkable luck. That's not to say it can never happen (Brad Boyes put up 40 with a jump in s% that Kostitsyn would require) but it's not a likely outcome or one with decent odds.

Post-lockout 40-goal scorers have all had more than 200 shots in the season they scored 40, Kostitsyn's career high is 196.

That's not to say it makes him useless, 20-25 goal types who play responsible defense aren't that plentiful on the free agent market and even trading for them could be difficult to do. I think the comparable UFAs this year are Brad Boyes and Dustin Penner though both are suffering from horrible s% seasons.
Sergei's shot totals went up when he joined Nashville. So did his shooting percentage -- over a much larger sample size.

Bottom line is that Montreal management didn't allow the Kostitsyns to succeed after the 2007-08 season in which they dominated. We wanted to give ice time to players like Moen, Darche....

I remember Sergei Kostitsyn finally got PP time under Carbonneau. The PP sucked in 2008-09 before Schneider was acquired. SK74 was on the PP for 2 games. He contributed to two goals. And then he was taken off the PP.

Carbonneau never tried Tanguay-Koivu-AK46 until his last game as coach even though it was an obvious line combination.

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02-28-2012, 02:18 PM
  #49
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Well for the record, I would not count any years prior to their formation as gauges against the success of the Habs.

Honestly, I find it kind of funny because they are kind of exactly what a lot of Habs fans on here complain about, mediocre with "poor asset management." They often lose their best players to UFA, and they are often in the 4-8 bracket, which apparently to some here is unacceptable.

Whether they are on the rise or not is out of my league, do not follow them enough to know at all. But if they lose one of their big defensemen to free agency, that puts them back down a peg.

People complain about the Habs tendency to go "1 round and out" in the playoffs. Well, the Habs at least have three second round births, and a conference finals birth during the time that they existed. And before this season, how many times did we miss the playoffs since the lockout, once?

This is pretty much a syndrome of "the grass is always greener on the other side."

And once again, just to make it clear I understand that they have much less revenue, but I don't think the comparison is very far off at all.
well, since in the league they missed the PO as many times as the Habs (I think it's 6X for them and 5X for us or something), considering their first few years they had a roster filled with other teams reject that's pretty good...

and as for their UFA (not counting Weber / Suter as they're still with the Preds), Hamuis aside they didnt lose many... the others like Hartnell (for a 1st) and Upshall (Forsberg trade) were traded not lost trough UFA...


and they drafted GOOD NHLers pretty much every year... most of whom are still NHLers today and some still with the team...
like
- 7th rounder Martin Erat
- 8th rounder Pekka Rinne
- 4th rounder Jordin Tootoo
- 7th rounder Patric Hornqvist
+ Klein, Weber, Suter, Spaling, Blum, Josi, Wilson, Ellis...


by the end of this season, since the lock-out, PO missed by Habs -> 2... by the Preds -> 1


Not really, they are doing very well, they do have a great coach, they do have players (most) developped by themselves, they did get a few superstars at the draft, they are already grooming the players who may have to fill for the departure of one of their UFA in the coming years (Weber / Suter)... so yeah it's true, grass isnt always greener elsewhere... but in this particular case, the grass IS greener in Nashville.

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02-28-2012, 02:23 PM
  #50
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But they've never been a top seed, doesn't that mean they are "settling for mediocrity" and should blow everything up to get 5 years of lotto picks?

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