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Old
02-28-2012, 03:37 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Damacles.

I liked the Richards trade, I still kind of do.

But I concede to Tad, Tomd and Johnny that the trade was probably made atleast a year to soon and Richards has stunk this season.

This trade will be judged off of more than one season. My biggest concern is Richards has gone from an 80 point player 4 years ago, to a 60 point player last year to a 45 point player this season. he is trending the wrong way. Wouldn't be the first time players have fallen off, look at Mike York and Alex Tanguay.

I'm prepared to give MR a mulligan for his terrible season, but if he doesn't bounce back to atleast his levels from 2010 that trade will set this franchise back awhile.
Here is my concern and I've expressed it many times...

The Kings should be winning the Richards trade hands down in year 1. The fact that they aren't (and, in fact, seem to be losing it) is a disaster for this organization. I always maintained that the trade should favor the Kings in the short term but in as little as 2-3 years it would start to look awful from an LA POV. The fact that it is beginning to look awful in year 1 is beyond disastrous.

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02-28-2012, 03:39 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think that the positions Lombardi values the most are correct. Those being:

#1 goalie
#1 center
top four defensemen
#2 center

It sucks that the #1 center and #1 defenseman are far below meeting their required level of performance in terms of offense. Wingers are nice, but they aren't the straw that stirs the koolaid.
The only players on the team meeting their required performance level are Quick and Mitchell. That's it.

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02-28-2012, 03:39 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Honestly, I think people want so badly to believe that Mike is what the media has hyped him up to be, that they look the other way and make up excuses for him when he's ineffective. In psychology it called rationalization.
I agree 100%. And I think the same applies to our GM. So many people went "all in", look at the smartest man in the room comments, the "In Dean We trust t-shirts" We had this same issue with Michigan football and coach Rodriguez, so many people wanted him to succeed so badly that even until the end when it had all fallen apart, there were still many holdovers that failed to realize what a failure he was because they wanted more than anything for him to succeed.

I think so many people, myself included thought we were getting the perfect hockey player. But reading comments by fans who have seen him play, watching him play this season and looking at his numbers, this is very likely a downward tending player, the numbers simply don't lie. And it has me terrified, he looks nothing like the guy who played in the Olympics or the 2010 finals.

I hope for the sake of this franchise that it's just the archaic system and not the player, but honestly I don't know either way, maybe its a combination of both.

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02-28-2012, 03:41 PM
  #179
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Posted 6 -24 -2011 PAge 25 post 604# Mike Richards trade thread.


Tomd:
I suspect this trade won't look as good 1 year from now as it looks today. It will look absolutely brutal in 5 years.

But let the Kings faithful celebrate while they can. /End Quote.


Pretty consistant from everyone, save maybe Johnny Utah, he has done almost a 180...

I still like the trade personally, I think Mike will post 60 to 70 points next season..


Last edited by damacles1156: 02-28-2012 at 03:55 PM.
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02-28-2012, 03:43 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
The only players on the team meeting their required performance level are Quick and Mitchell. That's it.
Pretty much. Brown is and has always been streaky. In terms of offensive output, he may get to the 22-25 goal area, which would be fine for him.

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Old
02-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #181
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Pretty interesting poll found in that thread too

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=931695

I fully believe/expect Richards to pick it up. Hopefully it starts tonight.

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02-28-2012, 03:49 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
And the #2 center is meeting his required level of performance?

Or the #3 center, you know the "culture changer"

Edit: Just saw the bolded part. Well played sir. LOL!!
Stoll and Greene provided leadership when they arrived and some hardnosed play. I don't remember Dean saying they are "culture changers", but even if he did so what?

Richards' stats are a big disappointment. I think getting his bell rung has a lot to do with it, but it is what it is.

The most disappointing aspect of this team is that Kopitar and Doughty still don't seem to get "it".

Quick has obviously stepped up the mental aspect of his game considerably from last season. Kopitar and Doughty had better figure it out PDQ.

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02-28-2012, 03:50 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Posted 6 -24 -2011 PAge 25 post 604# Mike Richards trade thread.


Tomd:
I suspect this trade won't look as good 1 year from now as it looks today. It will look absolutely brutal in 5 years.

But let the Kings faithful celebrate while they can. /End Quote.


Pretty consistant from eveyone, save maybe Johnny Utah, he has done almost a 180...

I still like the trade personally, I think Mike will post 60 to 70 points next season..
Pretty prescient actually...

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02-28-2012, 03:53 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Posted 6 -24 -2011 PAge 25 post 604# Mike Richards trade thread.


Tomd:
I suspect this trade won't look as good 1 year from now as it looks today. It will look absolutely brutal in 5 years.

But let the Kings faithful celebrate while they can. /End Quote.


Pretty consistant from eveyone, save maybe Johnny Utah, he has done almost a 180...

I still like the trade personally, I think Mike will post 60 to 70 points next season..
Had a feeling Johnny Utah changed his mind

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02-28-2012, 04:02 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Here is my concern and I've expressed it many times...

The Kings should be winning the Richards trade hands down in year 1. The fact that they aren't (and, in fact, seem to be losing it) is a disaster for this organization. I always maintained that the trade should favor the Kings in the short term but in as little as 2-3 years it would start to look awful from an LA POV. The fact that it is beginning to look awful in year 1 is beyond disastrous.
You're right a concussion is disastrous.

Mitchell, two years on from concussion. Signed to a two year deal. Still going strong. Richards going to be fine as long as he stops fighting bigger guys.

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Old
02-28-2012, 04:06 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I've given statistical information, prior to this season, to back my position that Richards is overrated, should never have been acquired for the price we paid, and is not an upgrade over Simmonds offensively.

Are you implying that there is no bias coming from the "pro Richards" side?

Honestly, I think people want so badly to believe that Mike is what the media has hyped him up to be, that they look the other way and make up excuses for him when he's ineffective. In psychology it called rationalization.
It's very simple and it's been brought up ad nauseum already.

Nobody (I think) is claiming that Mike Richards is an elite scorer that can singlehandedly carry a team.

Mike Richards is a fantastic player with IRREFUTABLE success at every level he has played at. Tell me, who was the last King to captain LA to game 6 of the Cup Finals?

What you fail to realize is that people who love Mike Richards as a hockey player such as myself are not looking for him to be the sole savior of this team. We traded a prospect, who was PROJECTED to MAYBE be in the echelon of Mike Richards one day, and a good young power forward for a proven leader and playoff performer. Mike Richards is the kind of player you win championships with.

I'm not blind to the fact that he is having his worst year statistically. However, I still think he is a tremendous asset to this team.

But, I get it. You've found your goat. You look at the numbers Simmonds is putting up in Philly and declare them the "winner" of a hockey trade that will likely work out for both sides.

There is no convincing you or anyone else on the MR-bashing train otherwise, and I accept that. But don't play armchair psychologist and tell me I'm rationalizing or biased or delusional because I think the Mike Richards trade was a huge benefit for this team in the long run.

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02-28-2012, 04:09 PM
  #187
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What have you done for me lately though. And the price they paid I think they expected the 2008-2010 Richards who played that way with all those intangibles while putting up 75 and 80 points.

The Kings didn't trade one of the best prospects in hockey and a very unique and hard to find player in Simmonds for 45-55 points and intangibles.

Richards career is going in the wrong direction, hopefully he can re-find his game.

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02-28-2012, 04:14 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
What have you done for me lately though. And the price they paid I think they expected the 2008-2010 Richards who played that way with all those intangibles while putting up 75 and 80 points.

The Kings didn't trade one of the best prospects in hockey and a very unique and hard to find player in Simmonds for 45-55 points and intangibles.

Richards career is going in the wrong direction, hopefully he can re-find his game.
I agree that they didn't trade those assets for 50ish points and intangibles. But what grinds my gears is that people expect the guy to simply switch conferences and teams, get concussed, skate on a line with the Brain Trust themselves, Penner and Stoll, and magically replicate the numbers he put up on the most offensively dynamic team in the league.

Mike Richards just becomes an easy scapegoat in the wake of this team's collapse, but let's not forget he has also looked like our best player for long stretches at a time this season.

Only time will tell how this shakes out, but Mike Richards is not the player that I would bet on to fizzle out.

Tell me, are we paying Kopitar 6.8 million for 55ish points and good two-way play?

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02-28-2012, 04:19 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Richards View Post
It's very simple and it's been brought up ad nauseum already.

Nobody (I think) is claiming that Mike Richards is an elite scorer that can singlehandedly carry a team.

Mike Richards is a fantastic player with IRREFUTABLE success at every level he has played at. Tell me, who was the last King to captain LA to game 6 of the Cup Finals?

What you fail to realize is that people who love Mike Richards as a hockey player such as myself are not looking for him to be the sole savior of this team. We traded a prospect, who was PROJECTED to MAYBE be in the echelon of Mike Richards one day, and a good young power forward for a proven leader and playoff performer. Mike Richards is the kind of player you win championships with.

I'm not blind to the fact that he is having his worst year statistically. However, I still think he is a tremendous asset to this team.

But, I get it. You've found your goat. You look at the numbers Simmonds is putting up in Philly and declare them the "winner" of a hockey trade that will likely work out for both sides.

There is no convincing you or anyone else on the MR-bashing train otherwise, and I accept that. But don't play armchair psychologist and tell me I'm rationalizing or biased or delusional because I think the Mike Richards trade was a huge benefit for this team in the long run.
You're ignoring/misunderstanding what I'm saying, and implying that I've said/implied things which I have not said/implied.

IT'S NOT ABOUT MIKE RICHARDS AND WAYNE SIMMONDS STATS THIS SEASON.

MIKE RICHARDS IS A GOOD PLAYER AND AN ASSET TO THE TEAM.

NO ONE IS/WAS EXPECTING MIKE RICHARDS TO BE THE SOLE SAVIOR OF THE TEAM.

MIKE RICHARDS IS NOT THE REASON THE TEAM IS FAILING.


None of the above changes my objective opinions towards Mike and the trade.

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02-28-2012, 04:23 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
No that hard to look up, I am looking at the Richards trade thread right now.

Johnny Utah never said he didn't like the trade in the thread. Just pointed out the Kings would have to replace Simmer/Smyth/Zues.

Herby didn't say much so far. PSP and tadlite were skeptical cause of the Downward trend of Richards point totals.

Tomd hasn't posted yet in it on page 10.....
Actually, it was about a month before the trade on a proposal from the trade board. A proposal was made, I don't remember who the player was but along came tomd lauding that Mike Richards (not even sure he was the focus of the thread) was the type of player that wins you championships. I actually blasted him in the Mike Richards to the Kings trade thread for that. The Mike Richards trade to LA made him suddenly change his mind on what type of player Richards was/is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
I was wondering why I hadn't received my Valentine's Day card from you...

I'm comfortable with everything I've said and predicted. Heck, I remember a few months ago when you were a big DL supporter...now you seemed to want his head too. So you see, you may come around to my POV on Mike Richards after all.

And remember, 1 goal in 29 games...
Ok so you stand by your statement that he is the type of player tha wins you championships or he is overrated? Is it possible to be both a player that is overrated but also one that wins you championships? In tomd's world...

Unlike yourself and others, I believe there is value to what DL has done here. Much like yourself though, DL is incredibly stubborn and doesn't seem to learn from history and/or his past mistakes. Those are some of his weaknesses and I find it ironic that you, like DL, can't admit that either you were wrong about what you said prior to the Mike Richards trade or you are wrong after and now. You can't have it both ways.. unless of course you are a person like yourself or DL.

I've criticized DL on plenty of occasions and although you seem to imply it (feel free to back it up with evidence, not anecdotes and assumptions) that I was kissing his ass. Well, as I've long said on this board, much like American politics, it is really silly to pigeonhole yourself into one of the two major parties. On this board, that is anti-DL or pro-DL. I personally call the issues as I seem them. Right now, I feel like DL's biggest mistake so far in this process is his coaching choices. The hiring of Darryl Sutter was borderline stupid and I was critical of it the day it happened.

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02-28-2012, 04:23 PM
  #191
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Uhh..

Let's see, you said:

IT'S NOT ABOUT MIKE RICHARDS AND WAYNE SIMMONDS STATS THIS SEASON.

But then, you also said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I've given statistical information, prior to this season, to back my position that Richards is overrated, should never have been acquired for the price we paid, and is not an upgrade over Simmonds offensively.
You're right, I must just be blindly implying things

Then please enlighten me as to what you are trying to say.

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02-28-2012, 04:25 PM
  #192
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Woah, who said I did a 180? I have been complaining about this since day 1 and if you look back all thru Nov-Dec until now.

I HATED LOSING SIMMONDS from Day 1. Maybe I said I was excited to see what Richards could do, but I loved Wayne. He is my type of player and the only Kings jersey I have ever bought.

Craig Button is a former GM and he said it best the other night, Richards is a "shell" of his former self. Richards, himself, said he is struggling. Matt Barry is bashing him too.

So you have a former NHL GM, bloggers, the player himself and fans complaining....

NO ONE in Philly is complaining about Simmonds.

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Old
02-28-2012, 04:28 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
NO ONE in Philly is complaining about Simmonds.
Yeah, and people here are complaining about Mike Richards, Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Williams, Carter (I saw some guy say that he's seen enough in these 2 games to know that the trade was a bust), Stoll, Penner, Lewis, Richardson, Greene, Clifford, etc etc etc.

That's what happens when one team is in a playoff spot and the other is massively underachieving. People complain about the nearest convenient scapegoat.

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02-28-2012, 04:28 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Woah, who said I did a 180? I have been complaining about this since day 1 and if you look back all thru Nov-Dec until now.

I HATED LOSING SIMMONDS from Day 1. Maybe I said I was excited to see what Richards could do, but I loved Wayne. He is my type of player and the only Kings jersey I have ever bought.

Craig Button is a former GM and he said it best the other night, Richards is a "shell" of his former self. Richards, himself, said he is struggling. Matt Barry is bashing him too.

So you have a former NHL GM, bloggers, the player himself and fans complaining....

NO ONE in Philly is complaining about Simmonds.
If you would like I can actually post the Quote's you wrote in the Richards trade thread. You weren't that upset with losing Simmer. You even posted video's of what Mike has done in his career.

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02-28-2012, 04:30 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Richards View Post
Uhh..

Let's see, you said:

IT'S NOT ABOUT MIKE RICHARDS AND WAYNE SIMMONDS STATS THIS SEASON.



You're right, I must just be blindly implying things

Then please enlighten me as to what you are trying to say.
Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

"This season"

"Prior to this season"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trying to be an *******. I've never said we "lost" the trade because of Mike's and Wayne's stats THIS SEASON. When I have used stats to back my argument, the stats are from PRIOR SEASONS. The reason being is to compensate for the fact that the two have been used differently and are in different systems, thus you can't compare their overall stats from THIS SEASON as a justification for liking or disliking the trade.

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02-28-2012, 04:32 PM
  #196
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I was shocked at the trade. I was excited, maybe I tried to convince myself I liked the deal, but I have a pit in my stomach...like I do today.

If I ever ran into Dean Lombardi I would question him straight out about this deal.

Did anyone see Richards turn the puck over right in front of Quick in the Islanders game? Did anyone see that horrible misread last night that lead to a goal? I have seen quite a few Richards defensive blunders this year that I never saw from Simmonds. Granted, he is a winger, but still.

Hate this trade. Mark it down. 3 years from now we will all hate it. Quote me on it....

A 30 year old, 5 + million 5'11" Richards. Where as, a 26 year old Simmonds and 23 year old Schenn. One guy in his prime, Simmonds, one still a kid, Schenn, and the other other, well....judging by his declining stats, physical shape, size and the direction the league is heading; size and speed...doesn't look good.

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02-28-2012, 04:33 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

"This season"

"Prior to this season"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trying to be an *******. I've never said we "lost" the trade because of Mike's and Wayne's stats THIS SEASON. When I have used stats to back my argument, the stats are from PRIOR SEASONS. The reason being is to compensate for the fact that the two have been used differently and are in different systems, thus you can't compare their overall stats from THIS SEASON as a justification for liking or disliking the trade.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trying to be an *******, but I have my doubts. I stand by my post. Carry on.

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02-28-2012, 04:34 PM
  #198
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I think we all can vehemently agree that beyond Quick, not a single player on this roster has performed up to their level or beyond their level of play and that every forward on this roster is struggling. There is not a single forward having a career year, they are all collectively as a group struggling to produce their career average numbers this season. From Kopitar, Richards, Brown, Williams, Gagne, Penner and Stoll to Richardson, Clifford, Lewis, Fraser, and even the cast off names like Moreau and Hunter.

I understand that certain players, in particular the highest paid players on the team, are all counted on to carry this team and to produce, but not a single one is doing that consistently. Injuries aside, this turn of events was unexpected. We're well aware of the deficiencies this team has had in the past with scoring and that the inept coaching staff was incapable of devising a potent offensive strategy, but I don't think any of us ever expected this type of offensive struggle or saw the Kings finishing dead last in scoring.

They're all struggling as a group and I find Richards to be just as much as fault as every other forward for the Kings being 30th in the league on offense. But not one or two or three players are expected to carry the offense. Just look at all of the top offensive units in the league, they all have secondary scoring support from their second, third, and even fourth lines.

Now if I were to provide a scouting report of the strengths and weaknesses of the Kings' offense as a unit, it is very easy to pinpoint the weaknesses. They lack speed on the attack, they are seldom aggressive inside the offensive zone, they don't attack the net hard, most of their shots are generated from the outside perimeter and from the points, they do not penetrate the middle of the ice nor do they try to get to the prime scoring areas.

The lack of puck movement could be attributed to this team's lack of speed, they are not a puck possession team and mainly try to generate their offensive chances off a single rush or second chances. While they play a physical game for the most part, the Kings lose many board battles for possession of the puck and are not strong enough along the wall. They are not physical enough to have an abrasive attack, they are not fast enough to create chances off a rush, and they are not creative enough to play a puck possession game.

So that begs the question, what type of offensive team are they? The best way to describe this team and their play is that they are a defensive squad that plays a stifling, shutdown style of hockey. You will never (or rarely) see them get blown out offensively, but you are also not going to see them create many offensive opportunities for themselves. Thus, this team is in dire need of a fundamental change in its strategy. This brand of hockey may have translated to success a decade ago, but it just is not going to work out in today's NHL.

In order for Mike Richards and the 11 other forwards to turn things around offensively, the Kings have to hit the reset button on this coaching staff and start from scratch. They also must make a few personnel decisions to address the lack of speed, grit, and creativity that they need to address over the offseason.

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02-28-2012, 04:34 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I was shocked at the trade. I was excited, maybe I tried to convince myself I liked the deal, but I have a pit in my stomach...like I do today.

If I ever ran into Dean Lombardi I would question him straight out about this deal.

Did anyone see Richards turn the puck over right in front of Quick in the Islanders game? Did anyone see that horrible misread last night that lead to a goal? I have seen quite a few Richards defensive blunders this year that I never saw from Simmonds. Granted, he is a winger, but still.

Hate this trade. Mark it down. 3 years from now we will all hate it. Quote me on it....

A 30 year old, 5 + million 5'11" Richards. Where as, a 26 year old Simmonds and 23 year old Schenn. One guy in his prime, Simmonds, one still a kid, Schenn, and the other other, well....judging by his declining stats doesn't look good.
It's ok to admit you liked the Trade, but want to see more out of Richards.

Seriously people would give you less grief over it if you would simply admit that.

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02-28-2012, 04:36 PM
  #200
King Richards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Did anyone see Richards turn the puck over right in front of Quick in the Islanders game? Did anyone see that horrible misread last night that lead to a goal? I have seen quite a few Richards defensive blunders this year that I never saw from Simmonds.
selective memory at its finest, folks. I love it. Simmonds never had a turnover in his life!!

A 2 second search led me to this, just for starters:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...r#post29055891
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...r#post32510652

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