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Old
02-28-2012, 06:41 PM
  #26
Bloumeister
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I just fear to see that he's going to be around again next year. Just like I fear to see Gauthier still with the job the upcoming year.
What About Bob?

You think he's gone?



"HE'S NEVER GONE!!!"


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Old
02-28-2012, 06:42 PM
  #27
sXe
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meh! some good , some bad. Like any other GM.
Same with PG.
Also , I didn't know GM's did the hiring of their successors when they step down!

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Old
02-28-2012, 06:46 PM
  #28
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Nothing against Gainey, but he didn't do a great job after he decided to fire Carbonneau when we were on an upswing. That was the turning point of Gainey's general managing career IMO

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Old
02-28-2012, 06:51 PM
  #29
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The issue is the lack of high-end talent in our prospect pool. Yes, picking top 5 helps that, but we need more. A lot of good 3rd liners, but not too many 1st and 2nd liners. Which is why we pay through the nose in free agency.
in 2 years the younger players we have will be 2 years more developed, Gomez's contract will be up, and we can sign that 7 million dollar player to play for a team that will be able to support him.

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02-28-2012, 07:03 PM
  #30
Slew Foots
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Originally Posted by NORiculous View Post
Savard wanted Gilbert Brule instead of Price... So there goes your theory.
LOL...let's just say you're not going to win any logic contests anytime soon.

The fact that Savard would have drafted Brule, while certainly a bad move, isn't enough to disprove my belief that Savard is a better asset manager than Gainey. Savard brought in Timmins to head junior scouting and the draft, which is possibly the best move he made as Habs GM. Since then, the Habs probably draft more NHLers than any other team (even if they often end up with other teams).

And you know for a fact that Savard wanted Brule? You were at the draft table? I wasn't there, but I've also heard that Bourdon (RIP) would have been Savard's pick.

While Price is a very solid goalie, picking a goalie with a top 5 pick is not a particularly good asset management move. Look at the number 1s around the league. How many were top 10 picks? Where were Rinne and Lundqvist drafted? My point is that you're just as likely to find a good NHL goaltender in early rounds as you are in later rounds, since they aren't developed enough at 18 to know how they project as professionals.

Gainey is unquestionably a good leader. He just wasn't a very good asset manager or GM.

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02-28-2012, 07:14 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
LOL...let's just say you're not going to win any logic contests anytime soon.

The fact that Savard would have drafted Brule, while certainly a bad move, isn't enough to disprove my belief that Savard is a better asset manager than Gainey. Savard brought in Timmins to head junior scouting and the draft, which is possibly the best move he made as Habs GM. Since then, the Habs probably draft more NHLers than any other team (even if they often end up with other teams).

And you know for a fact that Savard wanted Brule? You were at the draft table? I wasn't there, but I've also heard that Bourdon (RIP) would have been Savard's pick.

While Price is a very solid goalie, picking a goalie with a top 5 pick is not a particularly good asset management move. Look at the number 1s around the league. How many were top 10 picks? Where were Rinne and Lundqvist drafted? My point is that you're just as likely to find a good NHL goaltender in early rounds as you are in later rounds, since they aren't developed enough at 18 to know how they project as professionals.

Gainey is unquestionably a good leader. He just wasn't a very good asset manager or GM.
Savard also gave Breezy and River contracts worth 4M a year. Better asset manager? Questionable. He only had 3 years as GM so it's easy to pick and choose Gainey's worst 3 years at the end. Gainey's first 5 years as Hab GM>>Savard's entire tenure. All of Gainey's reign? Well hardly better than Savard in that sense.

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:24 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
Savard also gave Breezy and River contracts worth 4M a year. Better asset manager? Questionable. He only had 3 years as GM so it's easy to pick and choose Gainey's worst 3 years at the end. Gainey's first 5 years as Hab GM>>Savard's entire tenure. All of Gainey's reign? Well hardly better than Savard in that sense.
Savard wasn't particularly strong in terms of managing contracts, but those Breezy and Rivet contracts were signed in a pre-cap era. We'll never know how he would have fared in the cap era, but given his appreciation for building a team through youth, I'm going to assume he wouldn't have made the Gomez trade .

Since Gainey joined the organization, the Habs have too often let promising young players leave the team and got nothing in return. It's like any investment: if you're going to sell, sell high...don't trade your players after you've driven their value down.

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:34 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
LOL...let's just say you're not going to win any logic contests anytime soon.

The fact that Savard would have drafted Brule, while certainly a bad move, isn't enough to disprove my belief that Savard is a better asset manager than Gainey. Savard brought in Timmins to head junior scouting and the draft, which is possibly the best move he made as Habs GM. Since then, the Habs probably draft more NHLers than any other team (even if they often end up with other teams).

And you know for a fact that Savard wanted Brule? You were at the draft table? I wasn't there, but I've also heard that Bourdon (RIP) would have been Savard's pick.

While Price is a very solid goalie, picking a goalie with a top 5 pick is not a particularly good asset management move. Look at the number 1s around the league. How many were top 10 picks? Where were Rinne and Lundqvist drafted? My point is that you're just as likely to find a good NHL goaltender in early rounds as you are in later rounds, since they aren't developed enough at 18 to know how they project as professionals.

Gainey is unquestionably a good leader. He just wasn't a very good asset manager or GM.
Sure Savard brought Timmins in and Gainey kept him. What's your point?

It's funny that you asked if I was at the table. Were you? You heard Bourdon and believed it probably because you trusted the source, same for me. What's your point?

Math is not how you run a business. Yes, you need math but math alone will not get you anywhere.

I am not saying Gainey was the best asset manager, I am saying Savard, although he did a few moves, can't be remember for much other then finding Timmins.

As for the Price selection being a bad asset management, that a great point of view for a GM assistant. Is it true? Maybe. But Price was still the guy to pick. Of course, it's always easier afterwards to say what was right or not... Did he try to move down, who knows. But we do know that he had the balls to follow his gut, and that is key in management.

.

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:38 PM
  #34
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"Expect the unexpected "


Ah good times...

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:39 PM
  #35
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Can't wait till the gainey era is dead and gone, and we can move fwd with new leadership.

No guarantee that it will be much better, but it really can't get much worse.

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:42 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
I'm not a frequent poster, but I've been very critical of Gainey throughout his tenure as GM.

To those who claim Gainey brought the Habs back to respectability, I have to disagree. Andre Savard was building a solid foundation when he was pushed aside to make way for Gainey. Unfortunately, Gainey's poor asset management undid most of the work that Savard had done.
Andre Savard chose Mike "healthy scratch" Komisarek at #7 overall ahead of Mikko Koivu.

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:43 PM
  #37
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I've been surprised Gainey was not more of a good GM for us. He had success in Minnesota and Dallas and was one of our greatest on-ice leader. But in Montreal he seemed to have crawled to pressure. The way he made the sort of reckless moves a mature mind doesn't do like trading Ribs because he didn't like his attitude .

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:44 PM
  #38
Kjell Dahlin
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Post lock out Gainey was a low tier GM.

Gomez (he gave Ryan McDonagh to replace Koivu by Gomez!) and Ribeiro were horrible moves.

Anointing a very young Price as this team #1 goalie (shipping away vet Huet to make room for Price weeks before the playoffs of our 104 points season) and losing Beauchemin (a tough D with a booming shot) because Gainey failed to understand the rules put in place during the lockout were also huge mistakes.

I also disliked how he managed most of our young players: you need to offer them on and off ice support.

A great capatin but a low tier post lock out GM.

Heck... imo Gauthier >>> Gainey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Aside from Gomez, all the other acquisitions did good by us:

Cammalleri
Gionta
Moen
Gill
Martin

If we still had Muller and a player of Markov's caliber (losing Wiz and Hamrlik as backup plans), we wouldn't be where we are today.

/apologist

I still think Bob did great. Always compare with what he was given, and what he left to his successor.
"... I still think Bob did great. Always compare with what he was given, and what he left to his successor."

When Gainey took the helm, he had, thanks partially to André Savard who cleaned up the Houle mess, a lot of good assets to work with:

Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Andrei Kostitsyn
Higgins - Koivu - Ryder
Plekanec – Lapierre

Markov – Rivet
Souray – Komisarek
Hainsey – Beauchemin
Bouillon - O'Byrne

Halak

All those players were in the organisation when Gainey took the helm.

PS the 2003 draft is Savard/Timmins' work; Gainey was hired 2-3 weeks before the draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Andre Savard chose Mike "healthy scratch" Komisarek at #7 overall ahead of Mikko Koivu.
Name me a better pairing (Mtl) than Markov - Komisarek in the last decade? Komisarek's career went downhill AFTER his fights vs Lucic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I've been surprised Gainey was not more of a good GM for us. He had success in Minnesota and Dallas and was one of our greatest on-ice leader. But in Montreal he seemed to have crawled to pressure. The way he made the sort of reckless moves a mature mind doesn't do like trading Ribs because he didn't like his attitude .
"I've been surprised Gainey was not more of a good GM for us. He had success in Minnesota and Dallas..."

Before the lock out, it was easier to correct your Gomez like mistakes; think of Donald Audette and his huge contact.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 02-28-2012 at 07:55 PM.
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Old
02-28-2012, 07:49 PM
  #39
Slew Foots
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Originally Posted by NORiculous View Post
Sure Savard brought Timmins in and Gainey kept him. What's your point?

It's funny that you asked if I was at the table. Were you? You heard Bourdon and believed it probably because you trusted the source, same for me. What's your point?

Math is not how you run a business. Yes, you need math but math alone will not get you anywhere.

I am not saying Gainey was the best asset manager, I am saying Savard, although he did a few moves, can't be remember for much other then finding Timmins.

As for the Price selection being a bad asset management, that a great point of view for a GM assistant. Is it true? Maybe. But Price was still the guy to pick. Of course, it's always easier afterwards to say what was right or not... Did he try to move down, who knows. But we do know that he had the balls to follow his gut, and that is key in management.

.
LOL...oyyyy...you're not getting my point. Why are you asking me if I was at the table? Go back to my previous post. I told you I wasn't there.


My whole point was that mere conjecture (whether it's your guess or mine) regarding who Savard would have picked in 2005 isn't enough to disprove my claim that Savard was a better GM than Gainey.

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:50 PM
  #40
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Have you ever thought maybe, JUST maybe, that landing a top 5 pick, possible top 2-3, was part of the Gainey Master Plan?

Eh? Did you think of that one ??? That's right...


2012/2013...

Price
PK Subban
Max Pac
Elite ''lotto'' prospect (center?)
Eller
DD
Emelin


This team is oozing with potential and who do we have to ''TANK''?....

BOB GAINEY (and AnorexicMan™ )

*And notable mention.... Gomez. Let's not forget Gomez's contribution....
Let's say Gomez was a worth half his salary instead of 5 percent. what would have that given us? 8th place... and a 1st / 2nd round elimination.



GO HABS GO
Gainey's master plan is that we tank and look like idiots! Seek help!!

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Old
02-28-2012, 07:50 PM
  #41
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Andre Savard chose Mike "healthy scratch" Komisarek at #7 overall ahead of Mikko Koivu.
No, Mikko Koivu was picked 6th overall. He wasn't available for the Habs.

As for the Mike Komisarek pick, it's fine. Look up the 2001 draft, it was a weak one.

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02-28-2012, 07:53 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
LOL...oyyyy...you're not getting my point. Why are you asking me if I was at the table? Go back to my previous post. I told you I wasn't there.


My whole point was that mere conjecture (whether it's you're guess or mine) regarding who Savard would have picked in 2005 isn't enough to disprove my claim that Savard was a better GM than Gainey.
Gainey picked Price because Timmins told him to pick Price, and if not Price to pick Marc Staal.

Savard might have trusted Timmins, since he's the one who hired and kept Timmins.

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:01 PM
  #43
Slew Foots
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Gainey picked Price because Timmins told him to pick Price, and if not Price to pick Marc Staal.

Savard might have trusted Timmins, since he's the one who hired and kept Timmins.
Agreed. I just found that NORiculous' argument (that he knows for a fact that Savard would have picked Brule in 2005, which proves that Savard was a bad GM) was particularly asinine, yet amusing enough for me to engage in a conversation.

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02-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #44
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I don't know if the Gainey era was a tragedy, a comedy or both. It certainly didn't have much to do with building a winning hockey team

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02-28-2012, 08:10 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, Mikko Koivu was picked 6th overall. He wasn't available for the Habs.

As for the Mike Komisarek pick, it's fine. Look up the 2001 draft, it was a weak one.
Yea funny enough, Komi was probably one of the best picks of 2001.

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:13 PM
  #46
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LOL...let's just say you're not going to win any logic contests anytime soon.

The fact that Savard would have drafted Brule, while certainly a bad move, isn't enough to disprove my belief that Savard is a better asset manager than Gainey. Savard brought in Timmins to head junior scouting and the draft, which is possibly the best move he made as Habs GM. Since then, the Habs probably draft more NHLers than any other team (even if they often end up with other teams).

And you know for a fact that Savard wanted Brule? You were at the draft table? I wasn't there, but I've also heard that Bourdon (RIP) would have been Savard's pick.

While Price is a very solid goalie, picking a goalie with a top 5 pick is not a particularly good asset management move. Look at the number 1s around the league. How many were top 10 picks? Where were Rinne and Lundqvist drafted? My point is that you're just as likely to find a good NHL goaltender in early rounds as you are in later rounds, since they aren't developed enough at 18 to know how they project as professionals.

Gainey is unquestionably a good leader. He just wasn't a very good asset manager or GM.
I don't agree with you that drafting a goalie top five is a bad move. Most that have been drafted top five have turned into great goalies.

Yes, they don't get drafted top five very often but that's due to the nature of the position. If you have a young Patrick Roy and you have a top five, you're not taking a goalie no matter how good he is. That's why they usually don't get picked high.

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:13 PM
  #47
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No, Mikko Koivu was picked 6th overall. He wasn't available for the Habs.

As for the Mike Komisarek pick, it's fine. Look up the 2001 draft, it was a weak one.
You're right....my bad. I remember Koivu was the one most fans were hoping for. I was hoping for Hamhuis.

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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Name me a better pairing (Mtl) than Markov - Komisarek in the last decade? Komisarek's career went downhill AFTER his fights vs Lucic.
Komisarek had the luxury of playing with Markov during Markov's prime and during his healthy years. Any other Dman in our lineup who would have been Markov's partner would have made it our best pairing of the last 10 years. I'm pretty sure Markov is the one who earned Komisarek his big UFA payday with the Leafs.

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02-28-2012, 08:16 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Gainey picked Price because Timmins told him to pick Price, and if not Price to pick Marc Staal.

Savard might have trusted Timmins, since he's the one who hired and kept Timmins.
Maybe we should just make Timmins GM. A lot of great GMs including Sam Pollack were scouts. He's been great for us. Maybe he deserves a chance.

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:16 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't agree with you that drafting a goalie top five is a bad move. Most that have been drafted top five have turned into great goalies.

Yes, they don't get drafted top five very often but that's due to the nature of the position. If you have a young Patrick Roy and you have a top five, you're not taking a goalie no matter how good he is. That's why they usually don't get picked high.
I agree. Without Martin Brodeur, NJ would never have won a single Cup let alone 3.

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02-28-2012, 08:18 PM
  #50
DAChampion
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Maybe we should just make Timmins GM. A lot of great GMs including Sam Pollack were scouts. He's been great for us. Maybe he deserves a chance.
It sounds like a good idea.

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