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Less and less talent on this team, anybody else worried?

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02-28-2012, 04:59 PM
  #151
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Great, so we finish what 10th next year instead? Semin will help improve the offense especially the PP but this team can't hold leads, if we don't fix the D we likley won't be back in the playoffs so who cares if we are 10th in the east or last.
I think we could finish 8th next year simply by changing our coach. We would not be in the bottom of the league had we hired a decent one over RC.
Add Semin, and we improve even more. I also don't see why getting Semin means not improving the D.
We can and should do both.

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02-28-2012, 05:13 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think we could finish 8th next year simply by changing our coach. We would not be in the bottom of the league had we hired a decent one over RC.
Add Semin, and we improve even more. I also don't see why getting Semin means not improving the D.
We can and should do both.
To me if we go into next season with the same D we have now, I don't see what coach could get this team into the playoffs. If they can upgrade the D then great, I won't hold my breath though.

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02-28-2012, 05:15 PM
  #153
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So I know Semin is a better player than AK, with AK being tougher and a hitting machine compared to Semin, but isnt Semin an inconsistent effort kind of guy as well ? If so. we will be flipping out at the guy even if hes scoring 30 goals and 70 points because we know he could do 40 and 85 if he played with heart. One thing for sure, you need a coach unlike JM or RC because theyd have this guy on the 4th line for not playing the system.

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02-28-2012, 05:41 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
So I know Semin is a better player than AK, with AK being tougher and a hitting machine compared to Semin, but isnt Semin an inconsistent effort kind of guy as well ? If so. we will be flipping out at the guy even if hes scoring 30 goals and 70 points because we know he could do 40 and 85 if he played with heart. One thing for sure, you need a coach unlike JM or RC because theyd have this guy on the 4th line for not playing the system.
All scorers are inconsistant. And flipping because he could score more if he "played with heart" is useless. Also, Cunneyworth doesn't have a system.

Semin's 5on5 point per 60 minutes of ice time rate would rank second to only Pacioretty on our team. And he can play tough minutes.

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02-28-2012, 05:44 PM
  #155
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Same people saying no talent want toughness. You people know toughness is usually in a less skilled player, right ? Those skilled tough players don't come easy.
I don't think most people who have called for toughness over the last few years were against having talent. We have players that lack talent, and dont even have toughness to make up for it.

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02-28-2012, 05:53 PM
  #156
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I don't think most people who have called for toughness over the last few years were against having talent. We have players that lack talent, and dont even have toughness to make up for it.
Like Darche, but he brings leadership and he's great on the pk.

Weber and Diaz, too. Not really tough, but not really skilled. They're middle of the pack and one makes the other redundant. I hope they get dealt for, or replaced by a stay at home dman.

Draft Grigorenko, then with our 2nd draft a long shot tough guy with hands, but skating problems.

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02-28-2012, 06:38 PM
  #157
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Ideal defense for the required two season tank imo.
Hate to say it but probably the best thing that could happen to us is finishing last next season and getting Mackinnon. He looks like he's going to be another good one.

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02-28-2012, 06:45 PM
  #158
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Hate to say it but probably the best thing that could happen to us is finishing last next season and getting Mackinnon. He looks like he's going to be another good one.
It would be awfully hard to be worse than Columbus next year. With no Nash they've got this for a top-six

Prospal-Johanson-Umberger
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brutal goaltending and a weak blueline. They'll be worse than the Oilers at the height of their tanking.

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02-28-2012, 06:45 PM
  #159
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[QUOTE=Kriss E;45179149]I wont get into semantics, whether he produced more in the first rounds or nit, point is he has a nice PO production.[quote]
This is about the details, not the semantics. Fine, he can score in the playoffs. But asking "when?" and "against whom?" are fair questions when judging and interpreting his production in points and other stats.

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As for us not having a top 3,it doesnt matter. If he is the one that will attract the attention, then it will open up room for the 2nd line. That is why it is called a team game. What really matters is if the team wins, and Semin would definitely give us a better chance at winning.
Losing the "Big Three" would affect how to interpret and project Semin's true production and impact on a different team. Probably, Semin would turn us into a bubble team again, but he won't be enough to go significantly deep into the playoffs. He probably will not be a PPG player here, perhaps 65-70 points if all is well. And of course, the other aspects of his game won't be really known until we watch him in his new environs. For someone who will demand about 7 million, these risks cannot be ignored when negotiating a contract; a short term is necessary.

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02-28-2012, 07:18 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
It would be awfully hard to be worse than Columbus next year. With no Nash they've got this for a top-six

Prospal-Johanson-Umberger
???????-Letestu-Brassard

brutal goaltending and a weak blueline. They'll be worse than the Oilers at the height of their tanking.
Time to trade PK, Price and Pac!

More Gomez! More Darche! More Kaberle!

That should do it.

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02-28-2012, 07:27 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Yeah, but since a lottery pick is anathema and 8th place must be reached every season...other teams like Chicago get skilled players who are not heartless flakes like Semin.
Kane is pretty soft, but he's surrounded by a team that backs their skill up with effort. I wonder what Kane would look like on a lesser team.

The Capitals are in general a soft team. I know they have gritty role players and all but they developed atrocious habits under Boudreau, when everyone around you gets away with giving up puck battles it creates a culture of unaccountability. If Semin is the worst offender it's one thing because nobody considers him a leader, but it's a problem when Ovechkin and Green aren't much better.

Semin is a soft player who can be lazy but even at his worst he produces.

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02-28-2012, 07:48 PM
  #162
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HOLY CRAP!

Reading some posts around this board, I have to wonder......Are there extra cops posted to all the bridges? There's alot of depressed habs fans.

This year SUXD hard. But I am taking a more optomistic view of this. We have a ton of cap space for next season. A top end pick and extra offseason time to have all of our injured players to recover and train.

This, to me, feels like the Flyers of a few years ago.

We can sign a big name UFA Dman to our young blueline that has an added year of development with tons of quality ice time, add Grigorenko/Galchenyuk, a new coaching staff that can give us even a #15 ranked PP. And next season we could have a team that finishes as a 4th seed.

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02-28-2012, 08:09 PM
  #163
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Kane is pretty soft, but he's surrounded by a team that backs their skill up with effort. I wonder what Kane would look like on a lesser team.

The Capitals are in general a soft team. I know they have gritty role players and all but they developed atrocious habits under Boudreau, when everyone around you gets away with giving up puck battles it creates a culture of unaccountability. If Semin is the worst offender it's one thing because nobody considers him a leader, but it's a problem when Ovechkin and Green aren't much better.

Semin is a soft player who can be lazy but even at his worst he produces.
Then get a different Kane.

I'd rather go after Evander and the price would be about the same, if not a little less.

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02-28-2012, 08:49 PM
  #164
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HOLY CRAP!

Reading some posts around this board, I have to wonder......Are there extra cops posted to all the bridges? There's alot of depressed habs fans.

This year SUXD hard. But I am taking a more optomistic view of this. We have a ton of cap space for next season. A top end pick and extra offseason time to have all of our injured players to recover and train.

This, to me, feels like the Flyers of a few years ago.

We can sign a big name UFA Dman to our young blueline that has an added year of development with tons of quality ice time, add Grigorenko/Galchenyuk, a new coaching staff that can give us even a #15 ranked PP. And next season we could have a team that finishes as a 4th seed.
Yeah, but the Flyers have Holmgren as GM, not PG.

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02-28-2012, 11:14 PM
  #165
Kriss E
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Losing the "Big Three" would affect how to interpret and project Semin's true production and impact on a different team. Probably, Semin would turn us into a bubble team again, but he won't be enough to go significantly deep into the playoffs. He probably will not be a PPG player here, perhaps 65-70 points if all is well. And of course, the other aspects of his game won't be really known until we watch him in his new environs. For someone who will demand about 7 million, these risks cannot be ignored when negotiating a contract; a short term is necessary.
Semin is not a savior. He is a 35-40G scorer. Do we have a center and winger as talented as Backstrom and Ovechkin? Of course not, but Semin didn't always play with those guys anyways.
That's all irrelevant anyways, because we don't have anybody like Semin to begin with either.

To say we can pass up on Semin is just retarded. He would instantly become our best forward. I don't care if we don't have Backstrom. He probably won't get as many chances, but he'd still be great.

I can see him and Eller absolutely click together, add a power forward like Cole on their line and it could be a great trio.

Semin is an amazing player, thinking he'd become just an average guy without Backstrom or Ovechkin is retarded. He could work very well with some of our guys.

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02-28-2012, 11:18 PM
  #166
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Semin has produced away from Backstrom and Ovie before. What makes skill guys like that so important - and what we are desperately missing on the wing, is they don't need a centre to create opportunities for them. Put him next to a 2 way C who can finish, Plekanec or even Eller, and you could play to his strengths. Semin is closer to Kovalev than Kostitsyn.

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02-28-2012, 11:33 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Semin is not a savior. He is a 35-40G scorer. Do we have a center and winger as talented as Backstrom and Ovechkin? Of course not, but Semin didn't always play with those guys anyways.
That's all irrelevant anyways, because we don't have anybody like Semin to begin with either.

To say we can pass up on Semin is just retarded. He would instantly become our best forward. I don't care if we don't have Backstrom. He probably won't get as many chances, but he'd still be great.

I can see him and Eller absolutely click together, add a power forward like Cole on their line and it could be a great trio.

Semin is an amazing player, thinking he'd become just an average guy without Backstrom or Ovechkin is retarded. He could work very well with some of our guys.
Out of the three, I think he was usually the one that would get moved to the second line when the Caps wanted to spread the talent in their lineup. Looking at behind the net, last season and the one before, his most common linemate for the season was Laich. He actually has a better pts/60 minutes scoring rate this year than Ovi, third on his team to Backstrom (who has missed alot of games too so we know he doesn't need him to produce) and Perreault (who's rocking a very high on ice shooting %, 12.9%).

Semin-Eller-Cole would be a beastly puck possession line.

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02-29-2012, 01:34 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Semin is not a savior. He is a 35-40G scorer. Do we have a center and winger as talented as Backstrom and Ovechkin? Of course not, but Semin didn't always play with those guys anyways.
That's all irrelevant anyways, because we don't have anybody like Semin to begin with either.

To say we can pass up on Semin is just retarded. He would instantly become our best forward. I don't care if we don't have Backstrom. He probably won't get as many chances, but he'd still be great.

I can see him and Eller absolutely click together, add a power forward like Cole on their line and it could be a great trio.

Semin is an amazing player, thinking he'd become just an average guy without Backstrom or Ovechkin is retarded. He could work very well with some of our guys.
You don't need to remind me, since prior to "the upset", I followed the Caps once upon a time; I know that he's usually sitting the Caps' second line while their 1st line is OV-Backstrom-Kozlov/Knuble/Brouwer. On ES, the impact of the Big Three is mostly intangible, taking away the best defensive players from Semin, except when Green is playing with Semin. On the power play, he gets to play with at least one of the Big Three, and they all help each other make it easy to rack up assists and goals.

And the interactive effect is strongest in Semin's playoff history; most of his points involve at least one of Washington's big three setting him up or him setting one of them up.

40 goals will be his career high; he has never played up to his talent level, which is actually right on par with Ovechkin imo, and his propensity for lazy and undisciplined play (about 1 PIM per game) has frustrated Capitals fans. And that 40 goal season came during that year where every Capital was scoring like there was no tomorrow; cusp of the fun 'n gun system they had.

I never said that he would become average , unless 65-70 point players are now "average", but his production would not be as high as it was in Washington. Facing tougher matchups and being with lesser teammates, I would not be surprised at him dipping down to being a 65-70 points in 82 games forward. And I forgot to mention, but getting 82 games out of Semin is likely not going to happen; he has never finished a season without sustaining some sort of injury or for this year, being healthy scratched.
So, if all this had to be boiled down into price and term, I'd pay Semin no more than 5-5.5million per year and with a term of 2 years or less. Since such a below market rate would be rejected by him, that equates to me not wanting him.

And no Semin would not be our best forward, because unlike Cole or Patches, he doesn't make use of all the time he plays as well as they do. Scoring points doesn't measure what a player does for all of his time on the ice, only what he does for a few shifts. You want puck possession? Eller with Lucic and Horton would probably do just as well in that department, and with more consistency.

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02-29-2012, 03:43 AM
  #169
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Ya, who really needs this anyways..

what a backhand he has

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02-29-2012, 04:17 AM
  #170
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i want semin on the habs for the sole reason of having semin do the bongos on subban during a practice.

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02-29-2012, 04:56 AM
  #171
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Has anyone , uh, noticed that the cry for bigger, tougher, meaner, grittier players has actually been met with that type this year -- Borque,Cole,now an actual goon -- and that the team has actually gotten worse and worse? While little, "smurf", DD has been one of the few highlights? Who wouldn't have wanted to stick with Koivu and Kovalev , and their kind of game, now? The Canadiens dynasties were built on speed , skill , with one or two physical players thrown in to keep the other team honest. That's where they need to go again.

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02-29-2012, 10:30 AM
  #172
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Has anyone , uh, noticed that the cry for bigger, tougher, meaner, grittier players has actually been met with that type this year -- Borque,Cole,now an actual goon -- and that the team has actually gotten worse and worse? While little, "smurf", DD has been one of the few highlights?
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with getting bigger, the problem has always been that some proponents of this approach weren't too particular about maintaining skill at the same time. Adding a guy like Cole is an obvious improvement -- you add size and physicality but you also add real skill and a guy who can pilot a line at even-strength. Replacing Bourque with Cammalleri makes the team bigger, but worse; Bourque is bigger and more physical, but even when using his size to his advantadge he's just not as good a hockey player as Cammalleri.

Size has been oversold to the extent it has acquired such a mystical quality in the Habsphere's consciousness, so much so that I've seen cases where the worth of a player was evaluated in goals-points-inches-pounds -- and sometimes even dispensing with goals-points. Size is like speed, or hands, or stickhandling -- it's a talent, it has an impact over the overall talent level of the player, and it's okay to identify it as a gap and pursue it; but pursuing size at the expense of reducing the team's overall hockey ability was always going to be a losing bet.

Although I don't actually believe that the Habs have suddenly "realized they needed to get more size" and that's why they traded for Bourque; it was a convenient way to justify giving away the best player in a trade without actually saying they were trying to remove a malcontent or free up cap space. They recognized they could use more size (and hence pursued Cole), but that was not the objective of the Bourque/Cammy trade (or if it was, then it was a demonstration of incompetence).

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02-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #173
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Has anyone , uh, noticed that the cry for bigger, tougher, meaner, grittier players has actually been met with that type this year -- Borque,Cole,now an actual goon -- and that the team has actually gotten worse and worse? While little, "smurf", DD has been one of the few highlights? Who wouldn't have wanted to stick with Koivu and Kovalev , and their kind of game, now? The Canadiens dynasties were built on speed , skill , with one or two physical players thrown in to keep the other team honest. That's where they need to go again.
Replace Gomez/Gionta with Koivu/Kovalev, this team is still dead last in the East. The fact that we are debating about such average to mediocre players is a testament to the need of a real rebuild

FAIL FOR NAIL
SOMETHING THAT RHYMES IN -INNON FOR MACKINNON

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02-29-2012, 11:41 AM
  #174
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You don't need to remind me, since prior to "the upset", I followed the Caps once upon a time; I know that he's usually sitting the Caps' second line while their 1st line is OV-Backstrom-Kozlov/Knuble/Brouwer. On ES, the impact of the Big Three is mostly intangible, taking away the best defensive players from Semin, except when Green is playing with Semin. On the power play, he gets to play with at least one of the Big Three, and they all help each other make it easy to rack up assists and goals.

And the interactive effect is strongest in Semin's playoff history; most of his points involve at least one of Washington's big three setting him up or him setting one of them up.
Dude, really, you're only making yourself pass as a hater right now. So, he did well when he faced weaker opponents. Oh, he did well in the POs but played with the better guys, which also means he faced tougher opponents. Right.

Who freaking cares. What really matters in all of this is that he PRODUCED.

Sure, he got favorable match ups. If we have a good coach, the same can be done in Mtl. Also, back to ''this is a team game'' comment, if he attracts the top opponents, that means other good players like DD-MaxPac could face weaker opponents, which would make them produce more. In the end, it would help the team, which is really all it boils down to.

I wonder, did you say the same thing for Malkin? That he was benefiting from weaker opponents when he was centering the 2nd line behind Crosby?

Semin is no Malkin, but he is an extremely talented player, one that doesn't rely on his linemates as much as you're making it sound. He's capable of generating his own chances, and has done so much of the time. He's also capable of playing versus top defenders.

Seriously, I feel like you're talking about a regular top 6 forward.
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40 goals will be his career high; he has never played up to his talent level, which is actually right on par with Ovechkin imo, and his propensity for lazy and undisciplined play (about 1 PIM per game) has frustrated Capitals fans. And that 40 goal season came during that year where every Capital was scoring like there was no tomorrow; cusp of the fun 'n gun system they had.
Outside his rookie year and this season where everybody in WSH has been bad, he's never scored under a 30G pace. They didn't always have the ''fun 'n gun system'', certainly not last year, yet he still produced well.
Would he score 40 again? I don't know. 30ish? I'd put my money on yes.
We might not have a full out offensive game next season, but we just fired a defensive coach, so I'd say there's a good chance we're leaning towards a more ''entertaining'' system at least.

It really all comes down to how you use him. On an individual basis, you would think he'll be the one that our opponents will try to shut down. But, if the DD-MaxPac-Cole line becomes even stronger than it was this year given DD and MaxPac are still growing, then that might open up some room for Semin to play with Eller. Just like Eller and AK was great and getting favorable match ups early on, I'd expect that duo to be even better. If they're too good to the point of attracting the attention of the best opponents, so be it, they will give more room to the DD line, which is a good thing.

In the end, again, it improves the team, a lot.
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I never said that he would become average , unless 65-70 point players are now "average", but his production would not be as high as it was in Washington. Facing tougher matchups and being with lesser teammates, I would not be surprised at him dipping down to being a 65-70 points in 82 games forward. And I forgot to mention, but getting 82 games out of Semin is likely not going to happen; he has never finished a season without sustaining some sort of injury or for this year, being healthy scratched.
65pts is worse than Semin's average/year, so that's why I said that. Dropping down to 65pts would make him an average player according to his standards. Just like a bad year for Ovi is the pace of 37goals.

You have to stop looking at it from an individual point of view. I don't really care if Semin scores 70 or 90 pts. I mean, sure, it's always better for him to produce more. But what counts is the final score of each game.
So, if Semin produces less, but gives more room to other skilled players on our team to produce more because he's the one facing tougher match ups, so be it.
That's the whole point of depth. If all we have is a top line, then yea, it'll hurt us. But that wouldn't be the case unless DD, MaxPac, Cole suffer set backs. Plekanec had his best moments alongside Kovalev. Semin is similar.

Again, at the end of the day, it would improve our team, a lot, which is all that matters.

Injuries are not controllable. Cole has been labeled injury prone before.
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So, if all this had to be boiled down into price and term, I'd pay Semin no more than 5-5.5million per year and with a term of 2 years or less. Since such a below market rate would be rejected by him, that equates to me not wanting him.
That just shows how little you think of Semin, which is ridiculous imo.

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And no Semin would not be our best forward, because unlike Cole or Patches, he doesn't make use of all the time he plays as well as they do. Scoring points doesn't measure what a player does for all of his time on the ice, only what he does for a few shifts. You want puck possession? Eller with Lucic and Horton would probably do just as well in that department, and with more consistency.
I really don't know what you're talking about here. Lucic and Horton can't even stickhandle their way into the zone, and they're not fast enough to beat out a defender from the outside like Cole or MaxPac can. But we have enough guys that can dump and chase the puck. We don't need more of them.
I'm also sure a line of Semin-Eller-Lucic would be better than Eller with Lucic-Horton. What's the point exactly? Those guys are not on our team. So, what should be asked is would Eller be better with MaxPAc-Cole or Semin-Cole? Would we benefit from better puck possession with a guy that can actually stickhandle, that takes away pucks more than he turns it over? Absolutely. As I said, it improves our team, and by a lot. It's not like we're talking about replacing a guy like Cole for Semin. We're talking about adding to our roster, a much needed skilled player.

And yes, Semin would be our best forward in terms of talent, which is what this whole thread is about. Plekanec would remain the most complete forward on our team. It's not because he doesn't ''show up'' as much as you'd like him to that he's not as good as the others that do but don't produce as much.
We do not have one player on the same talent level as Semin on this team and you need skilled guys to win just as much as needing the tough power forwards.


I get it, you don't like Semin because he fits under the good old cliché of ''lazy russians''. But I'll take a lazy russian that has a career average of 36goals any day of the week.


Last edited by Kriss E: 02-29-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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02-29-2012, 12:05 PM
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EllertoKostitsynGoal
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Looking at behind the net, Semin usually end up facing about the same (slighty higher or slightly lower) quality of opposition as Ovechkin and always harder opposition than Backstrom on average in a season so I don't think we can say he only produces without them because he's facing weaker opposition. He plays alot with Laich who tends to play tough minutes. He might thrive with a two-way hardworking center.

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