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Was Turning Down 4 1st Round Picks Wrong?

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #26
Eb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30Rinks View Post
The percentages say that with 5 first round picks, you'd have an NHL allstar. None of those players are NHL allstars, and I'd trade all four for almost any all star.
Where are these statistics? And by "all-star" I assume you mean better then what you are trading off (grabo, kuli, schenn, mac) I HIGHLY doubt a mid to late first rounder would have gotten you this.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
How do we know that these picks were offered? Has Burke confirmed?
Burke was the one who said the picks were on the table (though only a conditional 1st for MacArthur)

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02-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #28
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Habs fan here.

How exactly do you guys know what was offered? The ''insiders'' can barely break a completed deal and some how you have good knowledge of deals that could've been? I just don't buy it.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
Sounds about right. At least now the same ol people will have something to point to and complain about a few years down the road.
Or Burke could have saved that info for himself. He constantly puts his foot in his mouth. Any other GM out there telling the media the offers they got on their own roster players?

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02-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #30
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I think the issue is that the Leafs in their current form are in no position to succeed and contend for a cup. They need that elite center, they need a bigger line-up, consistent defending and a great goaltender.

These are all things people clutch onto. We don't have the #1 D-man we need, nor the #1 center, or the #1 goaltender. Unless we suck real hard and get Gringorenko there isn't an immediate solution besides maybe getting Gomez on the cheap and seeing if he works with KEssel and Lupul.

This time by and large seems to be set up to restart. Get the players people want, bide you rtime, then blow up the team and restock with good 1st round picks, turn them into good players, boom have a contending team. Toronto doesn't have that, nor the system right now. Can safely say that if we play the Rangers or even Panthers we'd probably be 4-0'd and everyone woudl be just as unhappy.

I would've preferred the 4 1st rounders because a lot of teams are still in the race and if you turn the players into top 20 picks you can come out of this draft looking amazing.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:31 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30Rinks View Post
The percentages say that with 5 first round picks, you'd have an NHL allstar. None of those players are NHL allstars, and I'd trade all four for almost any all star.
Maybe, but maybe not.

Fact: David Steckel was a 1st round pick.

Fact: Mike Komisarek was a top 10 pick.

Fact: Tim Connolly was a lottery pick.

Need I go on?

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:32 PM
  #32
Pierre Gotye
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Draft picks are so over-valued when it comes to young players. If your trading a veteran on the decline with a big contract and he looks easily replaceable than they are worth a look.

But trading Schenn, Kulemin and Grabovski is a step backwards, especially in this draft which isn't very deep by most observers. My bet is the Leafs will be selecting somewhere in the 10-15 position. You might get a good player there but if you move the others you will most likely draft at a lower position, odds are you may get a project player who won't fill the void the player before him will be traded for.

So to answer your question, no I don't think so. Of all the names mentioned only MacArthur am I comfortable with moving, and Schenn to a lesser degree.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:32 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
How do we know that these picks were offered? Has Burke confirmed?
Dreger & burke himself on the fan 590 yesterday

Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedsToronto View Post
The other thing is how can we be certain four different teams offered us each a 1st? It could have very well been one team that offered a first for one of the following players
I suppose we can't... but there isn't any indication either way

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02-29-2012, 12:32 PM
  #34
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Does anyone have a link where Burke actually says that he was offered four 1 rounders?

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30Rinks View Post
I get that logic - and understand it. Here's the thing though - you need to have a "moneyball" mindset for playoff success in this NHL.

You need 3-5 players playing on cheap, entry level contracts to produce.

If this team is 5 years away from making a legitimate stanley cup run, then this was the year to get those picks. Losing any of those 4 players would not make our team significantly worse (when you compare their replacements (frattin, kadri, colborne, franson/holzer).

Burke keeps chanting that we're building a contender and not a a team to get blown out - but why not put money where his mouth is? Are any of those 4 players core pieces moving on? Schenn was supposed to be, but how long do you wait? Grabo, sure, at the right price he could be your 2nd center.
Like i said before selling low on kulemin would not make sense here i bet that first rounder was a high 20's team... just wouldnt make sense going forward here.... give him a shot at a bounce back year and hopefully a part of a tougher 3rd line going forward. In regards to Schenn, hes a core piece going forward and hes a young defender who will mature into a solid player give him more faith. Grabo is a lock going forward for me good solid 2 way player if it was a high pick in the draft I mighta reconsidered but i doubt that was the offer! MacArthur is expendable

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02-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #36
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Would have loved one for at least Mac. It could have been used as a nice little trading chip in the draft to help move up and get Galchenyuk if we aren't quite terrible enough to plummet into the top 5. I don't see Mac as being in the long term plans for this team once our young guys on the Marlies are ready for prime time, and Kadri could have easily moved into his spot the rest of this year and replaced him.

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02-29-2012, 12:34 PM
  #37
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I would think had he accepted them he would have shipped some of them out for Players. You lose 4 players, they have to be replaced.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:36 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eb View Post
Where are these statistics? And by "all-star" I assume you mean better then what you are trading off (grabo, kuli, schenn, mac) I HIGHLY doubt a mid to late first rounder would have gotten you this.
I went through Wikipedia for the last 10 drafts.

NHL Allstar = someone who's played in an allstar game
NHL Regular = someone who played the majority of their teams games either currently, or in the prime of their career (i.e. not a guy playing 40 games and then to the KHL, but someone who played 80ish games for 1+ seasons)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhorse1280 View Post
Maybe, but maybe not.

Fact: David Steckel was a 1st round pick.

Fact: Mike Komisarek was a top 10 pick.

Fact: Tim Connolly was a lottery pick.

Need I go on?
They certainly were, and all were serviceable NHL regulars. If you had 5 draft picks and got those three players with Komi being the all star, that would be a solid theoretical return (komi could be the worst all star in the last 10 years, but oh well)

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:37 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
If first round picks are being offered around that frequently then chances are the draft isn't very good.
It isn't very good, hence the 1st for ~ 20 games of Gaustad

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:37 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom King View Post
Does anyone have a link where Burke actually says that he was offered four 1 rounders?
http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media...28_173137_8324

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:38 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by 30Rinks View Post
Thanks, I'll have a listen.

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02-29-2012, 12:38 PM
  #42
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The rebuild is over, as Burke claims this is the team core group going forward.

Next season is year 5 for Burke and he believed the Leafs would be Cup competitive by then, so he isn`t going to tear it all down now..

Sink or swim he is all in, no turning back now to rebuild via the draft as he is vehemently opposed to that process, and feels its not necessary to build a winner through that means.

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02-29-2012, 12:41 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
We shouldn't trade Kule or Schenn for a 1st round pick because I think they're more valuable than that but as I was saying at the deadline, Leafs definitely should have traded MacArthur in this seller's market and maybe even Grabo. Leafs were falling and it was another tough schedule rest of the way and Colborne, Kadri needed some playing time.

But I can understand keeping Grabo if you feel you can re-sign him but MacArthur? Definitely should have traded him.
That's my take on that as well.

All in all I'm not a fan of tanking but perhaps we could have turned two assets into new assets and gain two roster spots for the future in the process. Maybe we could have used that picks llater to move up in the draft.
Grabo I would have traded if I felt I have only little chance to sign hin to a resonable contract. Probably Burke thinks contract talks will be fine so he did'nt sell him and I'm ok with that. Mac on the other hand is a player I would have sold for a definite 2nd with the chance of turning that into a conditional first without any doubt. Just not a big fan of his play (yes i know he's on pace for 20-25 goals again but still). But as I don't know what the conditions were I won't blame Burke and act as if I know anything better than him.

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02-29-2012, 12:42 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by GhettoHockey View Post
Like i said before selling low on kulemin would not make sense here i bet that first rounder was a high 20's team... just wouldnt make sense going forward here.... give him a shot at a bounce back year and hopefully a part of a tougher 3rd line going forward. In regards to Schenn, hes a core piece going forward and hes a young defender who will mature into a solid player give him more faith. Grabo is a lock going forward for me good solid 2 way player if it was a high pick in the draft I mighta reconsidered but i doubt that was the offer! MacArthur is expendable
Presumably, a team either trying to get in or trying for a run would have made the offers. That puts the picks anywhere from 12-15 (for a team on the verge that fails) or 16-26 for a cup run. I don't see any of the mains trading for any of those players (i.e. nyr, detroit, van, boston).

I love Grabo, and resigning him is the right thing to do, but we're not winning anything how we're going while he is under contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafan519 View Post
Would have loved one for at least Mac. It could have been used as a nice little trading chip in the draft to help move up and get Galchenyuk if we aren't quite terrible enough to plummet into the top 5. I don't see Mac as being in the long term plans for this team once our young guys on the Marlies are ready for prime time, and Kadri could have easily moved into his spot the rest of this year and replaced him.
Agreed. I think most people like Mac, but it's business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I would think had he accepted them he would have shipped some of them out for Players. You lose 4 players, they have to be replaced.
We have 4 players that are on the verge of coming into the NHL, not to mention 3 million dollar armstrong in the press box, an extra NHL d-man sitting out every night, etc. We have more then enough to replace them. Clearing the player space to help the young guys develop can't hurt.

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02-29-2012, 12:43 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30Rinks View Post
I went through Wikipedia for the last 10 drafts.

NHL Allstar = someone who's played in an allstar game
NHL Regular = someone who played the majority of their teams games either currently, or in the prime of their career (i.e. not a guy playing 40 games and then to the KHL, but someone who played 80ish games for 1+ seasons)



They certainly were, and all were serviceable NHL regulars. If you had 5 draft picks and got those three players with Komi being the all star, that would be a solid theoretical return
(komi could be the worst all star in the last 10 years, but oh well)
Over what we have right now?

I don't think so. And if it were, then that's alot of time wasted on developing merely serviceable NHL regulars over a proven 2nd line (which was one of the hottest line in the league for over 2 months) and top 4 d-man.

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02-29-2012, 12:45 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SeenSchenn2 View Post
For MacArthur definitely. Guy kills momentum every game.
I agree. I do not see McArthur having a big future with this club once some of our kids are ready to grab the top 6 roles. It's not like he has been amazing this year. Trade him and get another kid to develop in the pipeline. I would have also considered traded Grabo for one due to his current contract coming to an end. Kulemin and Schenn is a definite no.

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02-29-2012, 12:45 PM
  #47
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A first round pick for MacArthur would have been a steal. I'd have grabbed that one, but not the rest.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:45 PM
  #48
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People over evaluate first rounders, sure they're nice to have but you don't blow up your team when you're this close to the playoffs for the first time in 6 seasons. Sorry but some people on these forums are too stupid. They think first rounders are guaranteed Stamkos' and Doughtey's all the time

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02-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
People over evaluate first rounders, sure they're nice to have but you don't blow up your team when you're this close to the playoffs for the first time in 6 seasons. Sorry but some people on these forums are too stupid. They think first rounders are guaranteed Stamkos' and Doughtey's all the time
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
People over evaluate first rounders, sure they're nice to have but you don't blow up your team when you're this close to the playoffs for the first time in 6 seasons. Sorry but some people on these forums are too stupid. They think first rounders are guaranteed Stamkos' and Doughtey's all the time
I think people assume given the hype of this draft class that a 1st round pick and a shot at Faksa/Galchenyuk with Leafs 1st and then Vasilevski/Subban wiht another 1st would help the team a lot more then MacArthur. I think it also comes from people assuming Frattin or Ashton or D'Amigo could easily replace MacA's productivity.

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