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Less and less talent on this team, anybody else worried?

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:12 PM
  #176
Emanresu Wen
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Lol I made this thread just to get a few opinions

turned out in a 7 page debate

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02-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #177
Et le But
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Although I don't actually believe that the Habs have suddenly "realized they needed to get more size" and that's why they traded for Bourque; it was a convenient way to justify giving away the best player in a trade without actually saying they were trying to remove a malcontent or free up cap space. They recognized they could use more size (and hence pursued Cole), but that was not the objective of the Bourque/Cammy trade (or if it was, then it was a demonstration of incompetence).
The Cammalleri trade was clearly about cap space. For all the Gauthier hate, no GM in their right mind is going to admit that they are trading a playoff hero and one of the more talented forwards who was supposed to be part of the solution because he was a malcontent in a season we were losing control over, and that extra 3M can go a long way in retooling.

What he said about Bourque was true, he is a player that can contribute. But you get what you pay for, Bourque is a Kostitsyn like depth scorer on a depth scorer's contract. Cammy had a bad contract but there is a reason he is worth more than Bourque.

If the plan was to tank all along than trading Cammalleri and Kostitsyn did make sense, as we now have a lot more cap space going forward. But it's clear the team is a lot worse without them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Looking at behind the net, Semin usually end up facing about the same (slighty higher or slightly lower) quality of opposition as Ovechkin and always harder opposition than Backstrom on average in a season so I don't think we can say he only produces without them because he's facing weaker opposition. He plays alot with Laich who tends to play tough minutes. He might thrive with a two-way hardworking center.
I think Plekanec or Eller fits perfectly with Semin.

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02-29-2012, 12:37 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
If the plan was to tank all along than trading Cammalleri and Kostitsyn did make sense, as we now have a lot more cap space going forward. But it's clear the team is a lot worse without them.
You can say that again. We went from a situation where Kostitsyn was the team's 5th-best winger to a situation where the 4th-best winger is one of Palushaj and Geoffrion.

The dismantling of the club via trades and injuries is really sad. I'm getting seriously worried about how long it will take to recover, given the slim pickings on the next UFA market.

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02-29-2012, 12:41 PM
  #179
Et le But
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You can say that again. We went from a situation where Kostitsyn was the team's 5th-best winger to a situation where the 4th-best winger is one of Palushaj and Geoffrion.

The dismantling of the club via trades and injuries is really sad. I'm getting seriously worried about how long it will take to recover, given the slim pickings on the next UFA market.
The funny thing about all this is going into the season, everyone wanted the team to become more offensive orientated.

The way the team has been dismantled, our best hope moving forward would probably be to go back to being as defensive as possible - throw money at Suter and whatever role player defenders are out there and try to build a Preds-like team where the forwards are an afterthought. If Markov is really back, a top 6 of Suter, Subban, Gorges, Markov, Emelin and maybe Diaz is very nice actually. Plus unless we draft Yakupov our defensive prospects are closer to being ready than our forwards.

Gallagher and Kristo might be long term solutions as depth wingers, but with Cole and Gionta not getting any younger our top 6 winger prospects are very depressing.

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02-29-2012, 12:43 PM
  #180
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You can say that again. We went from a situation where Kostitsyn was the team's 5th-best winger to a situation where the 4th-best winger is one of Palushaj and Geoffrion.

The dismantling of the club via trades and injuries is really sad. I'm getting seriously worried about how long it will take to recover, given the slim pickings on the next UFA market.
It doesn't just end next year. The following season, it'll likely be even slimmer once most of them get re-signed.
That's why I'm really hoping we somehow get to sign Semin if he becomes available.

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02-29-2012, 12:46 PM
  #181
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It doesn't just end next year. The following season, it'll likely be even slimmer once most of them get re-signed.
That's why I'm really hoping we somehow get to sign Semin if he becomes available.
This is why I don't understand why some people think we need to obsess over centres and neglect the wingers. If Cole or Gionta start to decline next year we will have the worst top 6 wingers in the NHL outside of maybe Columbus.

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02-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The funny thing about all this is going into the season, everyone wanted the team to become more offensive orientated.

The way the team has been dismantled, our best hope moving forward would probably be to go back to being as defensive as possible - throw money at Suter and whatever role player defenders are out there and try to build a Preds-like team where the forwards are an afterthought. If Markov is really back, a top 6 of Suter, Subban, Gorges, Markov, Emelin and maybe Diaz is very nice actually. Plus unless we draft Yakupov our defensive prospects are closer to being ready than our forwards.
Actually the Pred's foward corp is pretty underrated. Not alot of big point producer there but alot of good two-way guys who can play in all situations. Their scoring seems to be spread out all around their lineup too. They aren't putting all their eggs in the same basket and over relying a single line.

Our leading scorer would lead their team (by 1 pts but still) but their 10th would rank 5th on our team.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
This is why I don't understand why some people think we need to obsess over centres and neglect the wingers. If Cole or Gionta start to decline next year we will have the worst top 6 wingers in the NHL outside of maybe Columbus.
Yeah, look at Plekanec this year. He's a good center but he can't do everything by himself. Our depth at center looks much better than our depth at wing.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 02-29-2012 at 01:04 PM. Reason: merge
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02-29-2012, 01:03 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
Yeah, look at Plekanec this year. He's a good center but he can't do everything by himself. Our depth at center looks much better than our depth at wing.
Plekanec is a second line center (in the playoffs.. in the reg season, he passes for a first liner, but not when it gets hairy). He can shutdown or he can produce like a second liner, but not both. Especially in the playoffs. It's too much to ask. He needs some of the burden lifted.

Kostitsyn was a third liner on a non-contender. No hockey sense, so his skill set is irrelevant, like so many of the players we've been bringing in here for the past 15-20 years.

Cammalleri is a second line winger on a good team. We'll miss his sniping, but we didn't have the guys to put on his line to maximize his abilities. So he was stuck with top coverage, digging pucks out against bigger men every shift, as is the norm for this team year after year.

We weren't going to get it done with those guys anyway.

We need a real GM in here, and we need to clean up the scouting.

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02-29-2012, 01:31 PM
  #184
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Well we weren't winning with what we had before so that is why we are unloading and trying something new. We are building from within, getting younger, we need to take a page out of Colorado's book. Even though they are on the bubble for making the playoffs or not, they are young, fast and skilled, and only going to get better each year. That is exactly what we need to do. Top 5 pick this year, probably more of the same next year unless Price absolutely plays like Superman. I see no problem with what is happening, Chicago did it, Washington did it, Pittsburgh did it, things were not working so they started over.

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02-29-2012, 01:34 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by habitants19 View Post
I see no problem with what is happening, Chicago did it, Washington did it, Pittsburgh did it, things were not working so they started over.
These teams sucked long-term because they couldn't afford to build decent rosters, not by choice. Teams do not typically suck long-term by choice; long-term "rebuilds" are generally due to either lack of money or lack of front-end competence.

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02-29-2012, 01:35 PM
  #186
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Plekanec is a second line center (in the playoffs.. in the reg season, he passes for a first liner, but not when it gets hairy). He can shutdown or he can produce like a second liner, but not both. Especially in the playoffs. It's too much to ask. He needs some of the burden lifted.

Kostitsyn was a third liner on a non-contender. No hockey sense, so his skill set is irrelevant, like so many of the players we've been bringing in here for the past 15-20 years.

Cammalleri is a second line winger on a good team. We'll miss his sniping, but we didn't have the guys to put on his line to maximize his abilities. So he was stuck with top coverage, digging pucks out against bigger men every shift, as is the norm for this team year after year.

We weren't going to get it done with those guys anyway.

We need a real GM in here, and we need to clean up the scouting.
Kostitsyn was never a third liner. He was used on the third line with Eller early this year which proved to be a big advantage. Had they been kept together all year and given the proper ice time, both would be better. Instead, RC resorted to using grinders on the 2nd line and making AK into a 4th liner.
I mean, AK could have been kept with Plekanec all year. They had been playing together for many seasons and even Plekanec said he'd like AK to be on his line. That was ignored however.

AK is a top 6 player, and under Martin, while he was frustrating at times, he was becoming more and more reliable defensively. RC manage to make him completely useless.

RC really needs to G.T.F.O once the year is done.

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02-29-2012, 03:17 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Dude, really, you're only making yourself pass as a hater right now. So, he did well when he faced weaker opponents. Oh, he did well in the POs but played with the better guys, which also means he faced tougher opponents. Right.

Who freaking cares. What really matters in all of this is that he PRODUCED.
You countered my original claim that he did not produce at all. That's all you did. You did not suddenly become God and thus have the power to command someone to ignore other info just because of confirmation bias. Maybe instead of just repeating "who cares", let's put you on the spot: why do YOU want me or anyone else to not care? Give a reason for me to not care, and maybe I'll actually stop caring.

I'm just looking some details(although looking at Yahoo game logs do not take that much brainpower). What you're doing is doing analogous to insisting that we look on at the mean of a dataset while ignoring other info like standard deviation or kurtosis: You deliberately want people to remain ignore some measure to "strengthen" the "point" IMPLIED by another measure. Here, you want to ignore the quality of the teams he faced and instead just force people to take at face value his PPG stat as if that stat represents everything about Semin. Well, here's the deal: you DO NOT do that with statistical information because their might be trends or patterns in the data that you are ignroing, and Semin has a trend.

New York was weak against speed and the Flyers had deficiencies in the defense and goalie department. Those are the teams he can destroy by talent alone because they just stink enough against guys like him.

Quote:
Sure, he got favorable match ups. If we have a good coach, the same can be done in Mtl. Also, back to ''this is a team game'' comment, if he attracts the top opponents, that means other good players like DD-MaxPac could face weaker opponents, which would make them produce more. In the end, it would help the team, which is really all it boils down to.

I wonder, did you say the same thing for Malkin? That he was benefiting from weaker opponents when he was centering the 2nd line behind Crosby?

Semin is no Malkin, but he is an extremely talented player, one that doesn't rely on his linemates as much as you're making it sound. He's capable of generating his own chances, and has done so much of the time. He's also capable of playing versus top defenders.

Seriously, I feel like you're talking about a regular top 6 forward.


Outside his rookie year and this season where everybody in WSH has been bad, he's never scored under a 30G pace. They didn't always have the ''fun 'n gun system'', certainly not last year, yet he still produced well.
Would he score 40 again? I don't know. 30ish? I'd put my money on yes.
We might not have a full out offensive game next season, but we just fired a defensive coach, so I'd say there's a good chance we're leaning towards a more ''entertaining'' system at least.

It really all comes down to how you use him. On an individual basis, you would think he'll be the one that our opponents will try to shut down. But, if the DD-MaxPac-Cole line becomes even stronger than it was this year given DD and MaxPac are still growing, then that might open up some room for Semin to play with Eller. Just like Eller and AK was great and getting favorable match ups early on, I'd expect that duo to be even better. If they're too good to the point of attracting the attention of the best opponents, so be it, they will give more room to the DD line, which is a good thing.

In the end, again, it improves the team, a lot.


65pts is worse than Semin's average/year, so that's why I said that. Dropping down to 65pts would make him an average player according to his standards. Just like a bad year for Ovi is the pace of 37goals.

You have to stop looking at it from an individual point of view. I don't really care if Semin scores 70 or 90 pts. I mean, sure, it's always better for him to produce more. But what counts is the final score of each game.
So, if Semin produces less, but gives more room to other skilled players on our team to produce more because he's the one facing tougher match ups, so be it.
That's the whole point of depth. If all we have is a top line, then yea, it'll hurt us. But that wouldn't be the case unless DD, MaxPac, Cole suffer set backs. Plekanec had his best moments alongside Kovalev. Semin is similar.

Again, at the end of the day, it would improve our team, a lot, which is all that matters.

Injuries are not controllable. Cole has been labeled injury prone before.

That just shows how little you think of Semin, which is ridiculous imo.


I really don't know what you're talking about here. Lucic and Horton can't even stickhandle their way into the zone, and they're not fast enough to beat out a defender from the outside like Cole or MaxPac can. But we have enough guys that can dump and chase the puck. We don't need more of them.
I'm also sure a line of Semin-Eller-Lucic would be better than Eller with Lucic-Horton. What's the point exactly? Those guys are not on our team. So, what should be asked is would Eller be better with MaxPAc-Cole or Semin-Cole? Would we benefit from better puck possession with a guy that can actually stickhandle, that takes away pucks more than he turns it over? Absolutely. As I said, it improves our team, and by a lot. It's not like we're talking about replacing a guy like Cole for Semin. We're talking about adding to our roster, a much needed skilled player.

And yes, Semin would be our best forward in terms of talent, which is what this whole thread is about. Plekanec would remain the most complete forward on our team. It's not because he doesn't ''show up'' as much as you'd like him to that he's not as good as the others that do but don't produce as much.
We do not have one player on the same talent level as Semin on this team and you need skilled guys to win just as much as needing the tough power forwards.


I get it, you don't like Semin because he fits under the good old cliché of ''lazy russians''. But I'll take a lazy russian that has a career average of 36goals any day of the week.

Someone who has 100+ point talent+other skills but fails put in the work to FULLY take advantage of that talent(and his former teammate even called him out on it, a damning charge) is indeed lazy. Hell, OV has gotten complacent but he still has more heart than the other Alex. And this guy has taken some of the dumbest penalties, such as charging into a goaltender on a breakaway for no reason(and then letting Chicago score on the PP). With Semin, you're getting a lot of talent but with a lot of headaches. The talent will help in the win column, the headaches will help in making winning for difficult. Hence, his contribution to winning, while still substantial in the regular season and against weak playoff opponents, is overstated and not enough to get this team over the top. And there is a very real risk that his market rate overstates his actual value to a team, which is why Washington is always tossing 1-year deals to him instead of locking him up like they did with OV and Backstrom.


Last edited by Madam Kadri: 02-29-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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Old
02-29-2012, 03:29 PM
  #188
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with getting bigger, the problem has always been that some proponents of this approach weren't too particular about maintaining skill at the same time...
I don't think this is true at all. People have said that we were too small and they were right. Nobody is putting size vs. skill except you. You keep trying to make us choose between them and that's not the case.

Nobody is suggesting we become the Bruins. We don't want to be the Bruins. We want a highly skilled team with some size. Unfortunately we've failed on both counts for years and that's why we're always fighting for the last playoff spot.

People have advocated a better mix and they were right.
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The Cammalleri trade was clearly about cap space. For all the Gauthier hate, no GM in their right mind is going to admit that they are trading a playoff hero and one of the more talented forwards who was supposed to be part of the solution because he was a malcontent in a season we were losing control over, and that extra 3M can go a long way in retooling.

What he said about Bourque was true, he is a player that can contribute. But you get what you pay for, Bourque is a Kostitsyn like depth scorer on a depth scorer's contract. Cammy had a bad contract but there is a reason he is worth more than Bourque.

If the plan was to tank all along than trading Cammalleri and Kostitsyn did make sense, as we now have a lot more cap space going forward. But it's clear the team is a lot worse without them.
The Cammy trade was about a knee jerk reactive panic move driven by a GM who'd been embarrassed. The guy says the deal was done weeks before but they were waiting for his suspension to be over. And yet, we pull the trigger less than 24 hours after Cammy's comments and flip him in the middle of a game while Bourque is STILL suspended.

That move didn't make a whole lot of sense unless you look at it from the standpoint that he was hoping that Bourque would give us a little spark and we could fight (without much hope) for 8th.

And if the Cammy trade was about tanking, then we should've gone after a far more useless player and got a 1st rounder or some prospects to offset the player. Doesn't make sense to waste an asset like Cammy the way we did unless the GM actually believed that Bourque was going to turn it around. It was another fail.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You can say that again. We went from a situation where Kostitsyn was the team's 5th-best winger to a situation where the 4th-best winger is one of Palushaj and Geoffrion.

The dismantling of the club via trades and injuries is really sad. I'm getting seriously worried about how long it will take to recover, given the slim pickings on the next UFA market.
The prized UFAs won't come here anyway. That's always been what we've tried to do. It doesn't work so we get the leftovers. Rinse, lather repeat... Suter would be great but he's not coming here. We have to accept this and understand that until we build a winning team it's going to be harder to attract those kinds of players.

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