Until the cap and CBA are sorted out, you can't really say with any certainty that we couldn't sign Stuart.
True. I am making the assumption that best case, the cap ends up around this area. From what I've heard, Bettman is strongly pushing to get the cap lowered....
It's the whole ball of wax and you have to go out and find similar players with similar numbers. Yes, the agents absolutely know underlying stats, but they also know comparable players. Show me a player that is comparable across the board that makes $2.5mil.
These are the guys making $2.2mil-$2.8mil this year on UFA deals:
I'd take Winnik any day of the week over Sturm, Samuelsson, Handzus and Bergenheim - probably Pahlsson as well. Glencross is probably better than Winnik but his contract is super long and has an NTC while Malhotra is a better player. Prospal, Cleary and Langenbrunner are different types of players entirely but I would take Winnik over Prospal for sure but it's difficult to compare him to the other two. I don't think $2.2-2.5mil is that outrageous.
He has played well, but SJ has too much depth. It wouldn't be fair to kick Wingels or Desjardins out of the lineup.
The only way SJ could sign Moore, Winnik, AND Stuart is if Handzsus is dropped. In any case, LA and Anaheim should have more dollars to attract Stuart with. He may take a couple hundred thousand off to play in SJ, but anymore and it doesn't balance out.
They probably could sign all three for about the 7-8 million range. I think you need a 20 man roster... so with those three they would be at 18 with about >1-3 million in cap space. So you probably are right. However I'd expect Moore to be the odd man out.
True. I am making the assumption that best case, the cap ends up around this area. From what I've heard, Bettman is strongly pushing to get the cap lowered....
if the cap is lowered, salaries would be rolled back. Just like the last lockout. It's proportional.
Not arguing that Winchester might be gone but he, Wingels and Desi couldn't possibly be more different hockey players if they tried.
I'll be shocked if Wingels isn't a regular in the top 9 next season & Winchester won't really ever be much more than a good 4th liner.
Well, you raise an interesting point, and this kind of goes to Vaasa's tenet about PROSPECTS and keeping them.
Where DOES Wingels fit next year? He's not going to displace anyone in the top-6; not even close. The only reason he's gotten a sniff this year is because of injuries He's a capable third-liner, but not as effective as Winnik, Moore, or Galiardi. One could argue that given his skillset, he's even less preferable than Desjardins or Handzus on the bottom lines. Talent wise, at least in my eyes, he is inferior to Sheppard; that is another road block in his way.
Well, you raise an interesting point, and this kind of goes to Vaasa's tenet about PROSPECTS and keeping them.
Where DOES Wingels fit next year? He's not going to displace anyone in the top-6; not even close. The only reason he's gotten a sniff this year is because of injuries He's a capable third-liner, but not as effective as Winnik, Moore, or Galiardi. One could argue that given his skillset, he's even less preferable than Desjardins or Handzus on the bottom lines. Talent wise, at least in my eyes, he is inferior to Sheppard; that is another road block in his way.
I think he has more then earned a second look next season along with reconsideration of just about every point you made. Don't you?
Well, you raise an interesting point, and this kind of goes to Vaasa's tenet about PROSPECTS and keeping them.
Where DOES Wingels fit next year? He's not going to displace anyone in the top-6; not even close. The only reason he's gotten a sniff this year is because of injuries He's a capable third-liner, but not as effective as Winnik, Moore, or Galiardi. One could argue that given his skillset, he's even less preferable than Desjardins or Handzus on the bottom lines. Talent wise, at least in my eyes, he is inferior to Sheppard; that is another road block in his way.
I don't even know what to say to the bolded part...I don't have a lot of hope that Sheppard is ever going to turn into much of anything, but that 'talent' that you're talking about, he hasn't shown it outside of his Junior career. If I had to choose between Wingels and Sheppard it's a no brainer for me.
Injuries are a pretty big reason why a lot of prospects get ice time they might not otherwise get and Wingels has been very good.
If Winnik and Moore are bothing wanting $2.5mil/yr contracts one of them can walk.
This is the problem with talking about next years roster while the season is still going...there is a whole lot of uncertainty.
Well, you raise an interesting point, and this kind of goes to Vaasa's tenet about PROSPECTS and keeping them.
Where DOES Wingels fit next year? He's not going to displace anyone in the top-6; not even close. The only reason he's gotten a sniff this year is because of injuries He's a capable third-liner, but not as effective as Winnik, Moore, or Galiardi. One could argue that given his skillset, he's even less preferable than Desjardins or Handzus on the bottom lines. Talent wise, at least in my eyes, he is inferior to Sheppard; that is another road block in his way.
What I see is that Wingels is very capable of fulfilling a 4th line role, but being a very able and versatile top 6 substitute for short periods of time. I could see him as a regular 4th liner while being held in reserve.
Out of curiosity, have you heard of any interest in Stuart by the Sharks? Not interest from Stuart in returning of which we are all aware.
I don't even know what to say to the bolded part...I don't have a lot of hope that Sheppard is ever going to turn into much of anything, but that 'talent' that you're talking about, he hasn't shown it outside of his Junior career. If I had to choose between Wingels and Sheppard it's a no brainer for me.
Injuries are a pretty big reason why a lot of prospects get ice time they might not otherwise get and Wingels has been very good.
If Winnik and Moore are bothing wanting $2.5mil/yr contracts one of them can walk.
This is the problem with talking about next years roster while the season is still going...there is a whole lot of uncertainty.
Sheppard was good in the 2008 season. He played quite well. He has the potential; its manifestation is up to him.
What I see is that Wingels is very capable of fulfilling a 4th line role, but being a very able and versatile top 6 substitute for short periods of time. I could see him as a regular 4th liner while being held in reserve.
Out of curiosity, have you heard of any interest in Stuart by the Sharks? Not interest from Stuart in returning of which we are all aware.
Well, you raise an interesting point, and this kind of goes to Vaasa's tenet about PROSPECTS and keeping them.
Where DOES Wingels fit next year? He's not going to displace anyone in the top-6; not even close. The only reason he's gotten a sniff this year is because of injuries He's a capable third-liner, but not as effective as Winnik, Moore, or Galiardi. One could argue that given his skillset, he's even less preferable than Desjardins or Handzus on the bottom lines. Talent wise, at least in my eyes, he is inferior to Sheppard; that is another road block in his way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy
What I see is that Wingels is very capable of fulfilling a 4th line role, but being a very able and versatile top 6 substitute for short periods of time. I could see him as a regular 4th liner while being held in reserve.
Out of curiosity, have you heard of any interest in Stuart by the Sharks? Not interest from Stuart in returning of which we are all aware.
Im not sure what skillset you are referring to, but id be willing to guess he has some very good underlying numbers this season. 3rd liners are generally role players, and i dont see wingels fitting in there. but he could easily displace desjardins in the 4th line if he keeps his play at his current level.
this may sound like hyperbole, but desjardins had a very long time in the top 6 and for me did less than wingels has in february which was our worst run this season.
if there are stats to say otherwise then ill eat my humble pie, but i have faith in wingels and he needs to stay on this team because he is on track to play in the top 6
What I see is that Wingels is very capable of fulfilling a 4th line role, but being a very able and versatile top 6 substitute for short periods of time. I could see him as a regular 4th liner while being held in reserve.
Out of curiosity, have you heard of any interest in Stuart by the Sharks? Not interest from Stuart in returning of which we are all aware.
DW was disappointed in Stuart in the '06 season, and DW tends not to pursue players who have already worn the Sharks uniform. That said, Stuart is pratically a different player today.
I have heard nothing specifically about DW desiring Stuart. I know that DW is tremendously confident in his prospect pool of defenseman. The intention being that Boyle-Murray-Burns-Vlasic are the core. Doherty, Demers or Braun would be taking Boyle's spot, Sefton, Petrecki or Wrenn would be taking Murray's spot. There are, of course, other prospect D-men who could surprise...
I imagine it would be like SJ re-signing Ian White. It would be for fewer dollars and a reduced role; #4/5 vs #2/3...
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($1.950m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / T.J. Galiardi ($0.850m)
Brad Winchester ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.600m) / Torrey Mitchell ($0.750m)
/ James Sheppard ($0.725m)
DEFENSEMEN
Brad Stuart ($3.000m) / Dan Boyle ($6.666m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Nick Petrecki ($1.125m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Thomas Greiss ($0.587m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,064,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $235,833
buy out handzus, as said above 880k for 2 years. With a slight cap increase, this team then becomes cap compliant.
Trade Wingels for a 2nd. hes not going to crack the top 9. He is better and younger then mitchell, but that also means he has more value. A 2nd could turn into a top 6 forward if we make a good selection. All i hear is we need to restock. This is how it begins.
Trade Murray for Prospect+2nd. Prospect should have top 6 potential, and the pick again should be used on a forward with top 6 potential.
If a team wont give us a 2nd for wingels, keep him then.
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($1.950m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / T.J. Galiardi ($0.850m)
Brad Winchester ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.600m) / Torrey Mitchell ($0.750m)
/ James Sheppard ($0.725m)
DEFENSEMEN
Brad Stuart ($3.000m) / Dan Boyle ($6.666m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Nick Petrecki ($1.125m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Thomas Greiss ($0.587m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,064,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $235,833
buy out handzus, as said above 880k for 2 years. With a slight cap increase, this team then becomes cap compliant.
Trade Wingels for a 2nd. hes not going to crack the top 9. He is better and younger then mitchell, but that also means he has more value. A 2nd could turn into a top 6 forward if we make a good selection. All i hear is we need to restock. This is how it begins.
Trade Murray for Prospect+2nd. Prospect should have top 6 potential, and the pick again should be used on a forward with top 6 potential.
If a team wont give us a 2nd for wingels, keep him then.
no one will give up a 2nd for wingels.
besides in our system he has PROVEN he has top 6 potential. hasnt looked out of place once. not sure why he is getting the shaft?
hey may not crack the top 9 but you cant look at our forward depth as the best 9 forwards get the top 9 spots. he will slot in just fine on the fourth line and do a much better job than whatever prospect you pick up. he will also slot in the top 6 and actively contribute on the ice, not just be a warm body. mitchell is UFA next year, and we dont have to re-sign him at all unless someone shows interest.
I'm really, really pissed that he scored so many goals this year. His underlying numbers were phenomenal last season and are great again (although he's playing easier minutes). He'd look awesome paired with Burns and I'd have no problem shipping out Murray for a pick. But my feeling is that stupid GMs will create a bidding war just because he put the puck in the net a few times this year.
Wingels isn't going anywhere. As best I can tell he would be waiver exempt next year even if he played every game for the rest of the year and played in 28 Playoff games.
Wingels isn't going anywhere. As best I can tell he would be waiver exempt next year even if he played every game for the rest of the year and played in 28 Playoff games.
On top of that, DW is obviously high on this kid.
Most importantly, he's American. America, **** yeah! The other American kid Ferriero can leave though.
