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So will the CHL ban fighting next year?

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Old
02-29-2012, 12:14 PM
  #101
Kimota
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As a citizen of Canada that wants to preserve our culture and wants to prevent these guys taking fighting out of the game, what can we do? Does writing petitions work?

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02-29-2012, 12:38 PM
  #102
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They can maybe ban fighting, but they better put 4 refs and 6 linesmen to compensate for it.

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02-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #103
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CTE is a game changer. It's a fundamental problem that all physical sports are going to have to deal with if they want to have players in the next generation.

It's really simple. Sports isn't important. It's not required. It's not all that helpful for future employment. Sports is, for most people, recreation. Your kid plays high-school football or local hockey and it's for all those other things in life. Teamwork, fun, maybe some discipline. NHL/NFL dreams just aren't all that realistic or even a consideration for most parents. Sports at those lower levels is simply a part of life but not a requirement. So all parents weight the risks. Play and maybe something bad happens. The likelihood matters. Most soccer players I know are running around on new ACLs. I've not meet a football player who doesn't have something wrong, and most problems are minor. So the risks are limited. Fun, teamwork, discipline, and reasonably limited long-term problems. An ACL isn't a brain.

CTE changes the dynamic. Now you're a high-school player and you could have degenerative brain damage for life? It's not like this is some sorta "he knew the risks" issue. He didn't know it was that risky. And that's the point. It's not like you HAVE to play football or hockey. Soccer's sitting around or Basketball or even Lacrosse. Problem for the pros is the moment you don't have kids signing up in elemetery school is the moment talent no longer shows up in high-school, college, and then drafts.

Talent has more to do with numbers then anything else.

Schools are going to start to have a problem. Sports is suppose to do something positive. That basic argument, no matter how ignored in many places, is still clear. You have sports because it's a benefit to the kids (high-school + College). If you can show that it's not or that the costs are far higher then originally thought people are going to have a little rethink and in a time of massive budget cuts to education sports isn't going to be able to make as good an argument in general.

Major Juniors has that strange combination of education and semi-professionalism. Yet, at the same time it's going to have to explain why exactly it's ok to watch 16 year old kids beat each other for someone elses revenue. Pros don't really come into this argument... What you do with an adult isn't or shouldn't be what you do with a Kid...

Hockey isn't about fighting. That's not the game. Hockey can decrease the risks reasonably easy. Fighting is just increasing risk without much of a reason. The idea that fighitng and hitting are somehow connected is nothing but propaganda. People just makeup that argument because they can't think of a better one. Football probably can't. NFL is going to have an actual problem. Hockey can still fix it before we wake up and the sports gone.

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02-29-2012, 01:06 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadite View Post
CTE is a game changer. It's a fundamental problem that all physical sports are going to have to deal with if they want to have players in the next generation.

Stuff deleted


CTE changes the dynamic. Now you're a high-school player and you could have degenerative brain damage for life? It's not like this is some sorta "he knew the risks" issue. He didn't know it was that risky. And that's the point. It's not like you HAVE to play football or hockey. Soccer's sitting around or Basketball or even Lacrosse. Problem for the pros is the moment you don't have kids signing up in elemetery school is the moment talent no longer shows up in high-school, college, and then drafts.
.
First of all the link between CTE and fighting is NOT established. Even if one were to presume that there is an association between fights and CTE, I think that the link between other forms of contact ( checking/boarding) will be far more direct, If your primary goal is to promote player safety, then why don't the " ban-fighting" types slide down that slippery slope and come out and advocate that the NHL actually become the no hitting league.

Secondly, you can't protect people from themselves. The overwhelming majority of fights ( with the exception of Vityaz) are consentual, if you don't want to fight then in the overwhelming majority of the time you don't have to. People chose to do things ALL THE TIME that directly put their well being at risk ( free-climbing, double back flips on a snowmobile, crab fishing). If they know the risk they they get to accept the consequences, even if most rational people would NEVER consider doing these dangerous stunts/jobs

The only way in which the " anti-fighting" position could have any traction is if one were to argue that the players are somehow unaware of the potential consequences of dropping the mitts. I can assure you that the people who do drop them are exceedingly aware of the potential consequences. If the basis of your position requires that you infantilize the players in order to act as their nanny, I imagine you can see why some people would take offense.

I'm not keen on kids fighting, nor an I opposed to having some restrictions at the CHL level( perhaps based on frequency or referees discretion for fights so that sticking up for a teamate does not have the same penalty of fighting an unwilling opponent) but I dont think it will ever be removed from the game nor am I convinced that these approaches will increase player safety.

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02-29-2012, 01:08 PM
  #105
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Typical over reaction and it's coming from USA hockey.
Just like talk of banning body checking before the bantam level.
Just like the USHL bringing in the stupid hybrid icing rule.
Just like changing the youth categories. Peewee used to be 13, now it's 12. Minor Bantam was 14, now it's 13 etc.

I'll bet more concussions are a result of hits than fights.

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02-29-2012, 02:10 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
First of all the link between CTE and fighting is NOT established.
I don't think people are seriously suggesting that getting punched in the head often isn't going to be a issue.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I think that the link between other forms of contact ( checking/boarding) will be far more direct,
Percentages matter. So what is it? 25% of CTE is due to fighting? 10%? Either way less sounds better then more. It's not much of an argument to claim that hockey is dangerous so why worry about it.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
slippery slope and come out and advocate that the NHL actually become the no hitting league.
You can play hockey without targeting the head and getting into fights. Some people suggest no head-shots = no hitting. Or no fighting = no hitting. Not all that sure why. Seems just like a made up argument. Unless no one hits in college or in most national tournaments. I seem to have missed the brawls during the Olympics or in the Frozen Four...

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Secondly, you can't protect people from themselves. The overwhelming majority of fights ( with the exception of Vityaz) are consentual,
Of course you can. These aren't adults. They're kids. You routinely keep kids from doing stupid things. That's basic parenting.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I can assure you that the people who do drop them are exceedingly aware of the potential consequences. If the basis of your position requires that you infantilize the players in order to act as their nanny, I imagine you can see why some people would take offense.
You don't need to infantilize kids. They're kids. They aren't players. They're kids playing a game. Kinda of a big difference and if hockey wants to exist they'd better think about it quick.

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02-29-2012, 02:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Tadite View Post
I don't think people are seriously suggesting that getting punched in the head often isn't going to be a issue.


Percentages matter. So what is it? 25% of CTE is due to fighting? 10%? Either way less sounds better then more. It's not much of an argument to claim that hockey is dangerous so why worry about it.



You can play hockey without targeting the head and getting into fights. Some people suggest no head-shots = no hitting. Or no fighting = no hitting. Not all that sure why. Seems just like a made up argument. Unless no one hits in college or in most national tournaments. I seem to have missed the brawls during the Olympics or in the Frozen Four...



Of course you can. These aren't adults. They're kids. You routinely keep kids from doing stupid things. That's basic parenting.



You don't need to infantilize kids. They're kids. They aren't players. They're kids playing a game. Kinda of a big difference and if hockey wants to exist they'd better think about it quick.
Percentages DO matter, what if the majority of CTE stems from checking ( legal or not) ? Would you advocate eliminating it, or is your concern for " player safety" only linked to your desire to get rid of fighting ? If you are really concerned for player safety, would it not be reasonable to restrict the most injurious activities first ? Rick martin had CTE despite having few fights, most of the players suffering concussions do so from hits, some of which the head was not targeted.

I have no problem with the CHL putting in some restrictions, but if we are going to do this in order to increase player safety, the it might be good to demonstrate that these changes actually would increase player safety and not lead to other unwanted consequences.

A 16 or 17 year old certainly is aware of the consequences of dropping the gloves, telling them they can't because you dont like it might make you feel better but don't expect it to change much.


Everything is associated with some risk. some people are more willing to take on these risks than others. I suspect that laying the body down to block a shot is inherantly dangerous and "could" be done away with for player safety but trying to enforce this would be difficult.

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Old
02-29-2012, 03:04 PM
  #108
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With the traumatic injuries suffered by players of the Albany RiverRats and Elmira Jackals from bus accidents within the last 5 years, along with the tragic fatalities of the Swift Current Broncos players in 1986 the CHL and USA Hockey will be banning bus travel.

The options on the table are:

1-The elimination of all road games, thus making each game an intrasquad scrimmage (without fighting of course)

2-Since many of the players in question are teenagers unable to make a decision on whether or not the activity of riding on a bus in winter is safe or not a players parent (or parents) will be allowed to shuttle players to away games, presuming they also are seated safely in a minivan with front and side airbags so as to protect from injury.

This whole "ban fighting" argument literally makes me sick to my stomach.

The game we all love is dying a slow death thanks political correctness.

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Old
02-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Percentages DO matter, what if the majority of CTE stems from checking ( legal or not) ? Would you advocate eliminating it, or is your concern for " player safety" only linked to your desire to get rid of fighting ? If you are really concerned for player safety, would it not be reasonable to restrict the most injurious activities first ?
Hockey without fighting is still hockey. If we get to a point that hockey itself has a high degree of connection to CTE then we're screwed.

I don't know the answer to that. To be honest, I'm just assuming that football would be worst. Much more violent and more importantly more reliant on repetitive hitting. It's the reason why DL/OL guys seem to have the most problem. Every single play they're getting hit in the head. I don't we have the same issue in hockey. Every-time you're on the ice you aren't getting hit in the head just to play in football that's your job.

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A 16 or 17 year old certainly is aware of the consequences of dropping the gloves,
I don't think a 16 year old is aware of anything. His choice doesn't matter. His parents choice does. That's really the long-term problem. If parents say no when the kids 6 or 10 or first wants to play we have real problem.

At this point we're not just thinking about the health of current players but of the next generation. CTE being front page news on every newspaper in the country isn't exactly great for youth programs (not even counting how crazy expensive hockey as become). So far the news is about football... thank god...

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02-29-2012, 03:37 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Tadite View Post
Hockey without fighting is still hockey. If we get to a point that hockey itself has a high degree of connection to CTE then we're screwed.

I don't know the answer to that. To be honest, I'm just assuming that football would be worst. Much more violent and more importantly more reliant on repetitive hitting. It's the reason why DL/OL guys seem to have the most problem. Every single play they're getting hit in the head. I don't we have the same issue in hockey. Every-time you're on the ice you aren't getting hit in the head just to play in football that's your job.



I don't think a 16 year old is aware of anything. His choice doesn't matter. His parents choice does. That's really the long-term problem. If parents say no when the kids 6 or 10 or first wants to play we have real problem.

At this point we're not just thinking about the health of current players but of the next generation. CTE being front page news on every newspaper in the country isn't exactly great for youth programs (not even counting how crazy expensive hockey as become). So far the news is about football... thank god...
How do you know that hockey without fighting is still hockey ? Is hockey without checking or lifters still hockey ? I'm sorry but how is it that you think that you get to make this determination for everyone ? We get it, you dont like the fights and that is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable position to take, but stop the disingenuous " we are protecting the players" nonsense.

There are kids ( more specifically minors) that do things that I think are completely reckless but that does not mean that I get to tell them that I know what is best for them. If I had a kid in the CHL and I was really concerned about him fighting, I'd have no problem pulling him from the league. The same way that if some other parent had a diffferent opinion and was okay with his kid dropping the gloves within reason then that is a decisions that THEY get to make, not me.

At some point kids have to be able to make their own decisions, you dont become an adult at age 18 plus one day. Try to do the best you can to make sure they dont do something stupid and hurt themself but there has to be a happy medium, you can't coddle your kids protecting them from everything until the leave the nest ( actually you can but you can't do it and still maintain that you are actually doing right by your kids). Kids have been fighting in the CHL for years with limited reprecussions. Can it be toned down ? Sure it can. Can it be eliminated, I think it highly unlikely. I still say that if you don't want your kid to fight then tell them not to fight and in the most cases it will not be a problem because most fights are still require consent.

I just say a youtube video of a 9 year old kid on a skateboard on what was called the mega-ramp. Fantastically insane stuff, and not for like 99.9999999999999% of the population, but I don't begrudge the kid ( Even Doherty) for trying it, even if he would have wiped out ( he did apparently although I did not, and would not, watch those).

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02-29-2012, 03:47 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
How do you know that hockey without fighting is still hockey ? Is hockey without checking or lifters still hockey ? I'm sorry but how is it that you think that you get to make this determination for everyone ? We get it, you dont like the fights and that is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable position to take, but stop the disingenuous " we are protecting the players" nonsense.

There are kids ( more specifically minors) that do things that I think are completely reckless but that does not mean that I get to tell them that I know what is best for them. If I had a kid in the CHL and I was really concerned about him fighting, I'd have no problem pulling him from the league. The same way that if some other parent had a diffferent opinion and was okay with his kid dropping the gloves within reason then that is a decisions that THEY get to make, not me. At some point kids have to be able to make their own decisions, you dont become an adult at age 18 plus one day. Try to do the best you can to make sure they dont do something stupid and hurt themself but there has to be a happy medium, you can't coddle your kids protecting them from everything until the leave the nest ( actually you can but you can't do it and still maintain that you are actually doing right by your kids). Kids have been fighting in the CHL for years with limited reprecussions. Can it be toned down ? Sure it can. Can it be eliminated, I think it highly unlikely. I still say that if you don't want your kid to fight then tell them not to fight and in the most cases it will not be a problem because most fights are still require consent.

I just say a youtube video of a 9 year old kid on a skateboard on what was called the mega-ramp. Fantastically insane stuff, and not for like 99.9999999999999% of the population, but I don't begrudge the kid ( Even Doherty) for trying it, even if he would have wiped out ( he did apparently although I did not, and would not, watch those).
Ding Ding Ding-

Winner

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02-29-2012, 06:19 PM
  #112
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If the bolded part was true, the Red Wings would excel at it.
Hate to break it to you but fighting still is important. So what the Red Wings don't do it very much. They also play a cleaner game than the rest of the NHL. There have always been teams who didn't bother fighting a whole lot. The Canadiens in the 1970s are an example. Don't get me wrong, they had their share of fighters when push came to shove, but they didn't look for it as much as the Flyers or Bruins at that time. It doesn't mean the Flyers didn't use their talents (an underrated skilled team combined with lots of muscle and intimidation).

As recent as 2007 we have seen a team similar to the Flyers style of play win the Cup. Possibly the best team post lockout. They combined skill and toughness like no other champ I've seen since the Broad Street Bullies. Throw a nod to the Bruins in 2011 who did much of the same, but maybe a little less skill. Ask Henrik Sedin if fighting is a part of the game.

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Originally Posted by GeneralManager View Post
Fighting is neanderthal behavior. If you like it so much, go put on your affliction shirt and watch UFC. I want to see hits, dangles, saves and goals.
I love the uniqueness and diverse aspects of the game. The physicality, the speed and the intensity and finesse. I don't want any aspects taken out.

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If there's one thing that junior hockey should be all about, it's clowns like Jeff Kugel being given a chance to act like maniacs.
Kugel jumped off the bench and ran around the ice like a maniac chasing a player (Chris Minard) a fraction of his size. Those aren't your traditional fights.


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If this happens, I wouldn't be suprised if somebody starts up a competing Junior league where all the tougher players can go and learn their craft.
It'll happen

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02-29-2012, 06:21 PM
  #113
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By the way, today on Off the Record Lyndon Byers was on and Michael Landsberg asked him about the idea of taking fighting out of junior hockey. He thought it was silly (most hockey fans do and especially players past or current). He embarassed Landsberg and left him speechless. If anyone is familiar with a registered debate scenario then all I can say is that Byers would have had everyone jump to his side after that one.

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02-29-2012, 06:54 PM
  #114
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body checking is more dangerous than fighting

actually sticks are even more dangerous, should get rid of those too, players can use their feet instead

oh and the puck is way too hard should make it out of nerf

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02-29-2012, 07:15 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by tikkanen5rings View Post
Fighting has always been a part of hockey. People comparing it to other major sports are forgetting this.
You can't take take away part of the game and still call it ice hockey.
Next take out hitting and chirping? Just call it flat ball skating...
Fighting happens after the whistle, so it's not part of the game.

Also, hockey is a global sport. International hockey has never allowed fighting. Hockey does not revolve around the NHL.

That said, I can see both sides of the debate in this scenario. Hockey Canada has every right and good reason to ban fighting, especially at the youth level where hockey is about development and not entertaining old drunks in the stands.

But at the same time, I believe CHL teams are businesses are they not? And the players get paid as well, meaning it is more of an entertainment business than a developmental system.

So really the debate comes down to what the CHL really is. Is it a development system for youth players under the jurisdiction of Hockey Canada, or is it an entertainment-based business? I'm not sure myself.

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02-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #116
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So lets get this straight. In upcoming changes to hockey

Minor hockey-make kids learn hitting LATER than they already do now. Check. (a league in BC has already banned hitting all together untill kids are 18 wrap your head around that logic)
Junior - Ban fighting
NHL- ban fighting, do nothing else to help with the game itself.


All in all. I feel really sorry for the kids growing up from now till the future. By the time I'm 30 (22 now) we're gonna see kids wrapped in bubble wrap, and people like me will complain about how every player is a scared to make a hit or take a hit.

Wanna take out hitting go ahead. But whats gonna happen when a player wants to get payback? Oh go out and make a hit? The "smart" choice? No. Thats not going to happen. Instead the players will go out not fight (fight usually settles it) instead they'll go out pissed off and probably make a reckless bad hit. Which will just result in more n more bad "pay back" hits. Is that what you want? apparently so. And I guarantee it will happen. Anyone commenting this is a great idea, I'm guessing never really played a high enough level of hockey to understand what happens on ice with these situations.



For everyone making some stupid about these being "kids" 16-20 give your head a shake. These "kids" are making life changing decisions at that age. 16 year old is making a decision to leave home and go pursue a career they might have in hockey. These KIDS have a lot already at that point in life. License, hockey is pretty much a full time job in junior with virtually paid for. Now if that's your definition of kids. Then CLEARLY some of you need to get caught up with the times. This is 2012 in case you were wondering.

AND for the record. Reckless hitting is more dangerous than fighting. Take out fighting will have pay back hits which will be reckless. So good luck puttin out that fire. Runin around omggg too many bad hits!! ban hitting too now!!


Last edited by deanosaur: 02-29-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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02-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Fighting happens after the whistle, so it's not part of the game.

Also, hockey is a global sport. International hockey has never allowed fighting. Hockey does not revolve around the NHL.

That said, I can see both sides of the debate in this scenario. Hockey Canada has every right and good reason to ban fighting, especially at the youth level where hockey is about development and not entertaining old drunks in the stands.

But at the same time, I believe CHL teams are businesses are they not? And the players get paid as well, meaning it is more of an entertainment business than a developmental system.

So really the debate comes down to what the CHL really is. Is it a development system for youth players under the jurisdiction of Hockey Canada, or is it an entertainment-based business? I'm not sure myself.
There is no fighting at the youth levels. Fight and you're gone.

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02-29-2012, 07:33 PM
  #118
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I like fighting in the NHL. I like watching UFC more than hockey. However, I don't think fighting should be allowed in junior. When 98% of these players will never make the NHL, they have the rest of their lives ahead of them and getting concussions at a young age isn't going to them any favours.

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02-29-2012, 07:40 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by deangamblin View Post
So lets get this straight. In upcoming changes to hockey

Minor hockey-make kids learn hitting LATER than they already do now. Check. (a league in BC has already banned hitting all together untill kids are 18 wrap your head around that logic)
Junior - Ban fighting
NHL- ban fighting, do nothing else to help with the game itself.


All in all. I feel really sorry for the kids growing up from now till the future. By the time I'm 30 (22 now) we're gonna see kids wrapped in bubble wrap, and people like me will complain about how every player is a scared to make a hit or take a hit.

Wanna take out hitting go ahead. But whats gonna happen when a player wants to get payback? Oh go out and make a hit? The "smart" choice? No. Thats not going to happen. Instead the players will go out not fight (fight usually settles it) instead they'll go out pissed off and probably make a reckless bad hit. Which will just result in more n more bad "pay back" hits. Is that what you want? apparently so. And I guarantee it will happen. Anyone commenting this is a great idea, I'm guessing never really played a high enough level of hockey to understand what happens on ice with these situations.
100% agree. In the GTA there is a youth non contact league. Granted, the players are not highly skilled and if someone wants to start leagues like that, let them. But to mandate no checking in all leagues is ****ing stupid.

That said, I do understand concerns with height and weight differences within the same age.

I wouldn't be against a similar system they use here in football. Not based on age but weight.

Instead of strictly age for determining what level a child plays in, use a combination of weight and height.

Minor peewee, Level one ages 11/12 90 to 110 pounds
Minor peewee level two ages 12/13 over 110 pounds to 120 pounds.
Peewee level one ages 13/14 over 120 to 130 pounds.
(or whatever the brain trust comes up with)
This would be only for house league, A and double A

Leave Triple A the way it is.

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02-29-2012, 07:55 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Fighting happens after the whistle, so it's not part of the game.

Also, hockey is a global sport. International hockey has never allowed fighting. Hockey does not revolve around the NHL.

That said, I can see both sides of the debate in this scenario. Hockey Canada has every right and good reason to ban fighting, especially at the youth level where hockey is about development and not entertaining old drunks in the stands.
Can we please stop this characterization. The people who are pro fight dont go round insinuating that all of the anti fighing crowd are a bunch of effiminate pansies, so drop the notion that fights are to appease the bloodlust of the drunken vampire fans.

Ive seen fights happen where there were more people on the ice than in he stands, and if fighting were a real draw then teams that have attendance problems would goon it up. Ive watched my fair share of games and ive never complained about the lack of of fights but as long as the players want the option to self police ( andmake no mistake they do overwhelmingly) then that's good enough for me.

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02-29-2012, 08:02 PM
  #121
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Finally.

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02-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ComeAtMeBro View Post
Would definitely boycott Blades games if this occurred. Banning fights will not increase attendance, but it could hurt it. Dumb decision if it happens.
Blades?!?!

Damn!

Just that D-Men corps is worth the ticket price!!!

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02-29-2012, 08:14 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Fighting happens after the whistle, so it's not part of the game.

Also, hockey is a global sport. International hockey has never allowed fighting. Hockey does not revolve around the NHL.

That said, I can see both sides of the debate in this scenario. Hockey Canada has every right and good reason to ban fighting, especially at the youth level where hockey is about development and not entertaining old drunks in the stands.
Can we please stop this characterization. The people who are pro fight dont go round insinuating that all of the anti fighing crowd are a bunch of effiminate pansies, so drop the notion that fights are to appease the bloodlust of the drunken vampire fans.

Ive seen fights happen where there were more people on the ice than in he stands, and if fighting were a real draw then teams that have attendance problems would goon it up. Ive watched my fair share of games and ive never complained about the lack of of fights but as long as the players want the option to self police ( andmake no mistake they do overwhelmingly) then that's good enough for me.

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02-29-2012, 09:07 PM
  #124
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Another one of the wuss-ifications of our society!! I'm sorry but no one is forcing you to watch hockey or a hockey fight! No one forces your child to play hockey(except maybe the parent)

CHL hockey needs fighting for two reasons! Entertainment is first, and to all the folks who said NO 16 year old should fight for entertainment, then if your kid is skilled enough to make the CHL don't let him play!! People may not pay to watch fighting but they do play to watch an emotional, fast and fun game! With emotions come anger and anger comes fighting!! Human beings have been fighting in all forms since the beginning of time!! We are built that way!

Second, to prevent the league from beig a cheap shot artist league! The maturity level of 16-20 years olds is far less than a PRO player, tempur tantrums happen and players use sticks and equipment as weapons! The threat of a possible fight makes people think twice!

Again if you don't like fighting in hockey, save your cash and go watch noon hour fun league, put your kids in chess tournaments and leave the hockey folks alone!

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02-29-2012, 10:32 PM
  #125
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We've run the course here.

CLOSED.

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