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Isles at Caps. 7pm. Verizoney Centre. 2.28.2012

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02-29-2012, 03:24 PM
  #501
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
When you're changing your philosophy, approach and playstyle, wins and losses might not be the best way to track progress. Ultimately wins and losses do matter, yes. Like I said earlier, the hope is the team is fully transformed by season's end and they go into the playoffs knowing how the play, the new way. And perhaps the wins start coming soon enough.
What's the best way to track progress? An improved handicap?

And why is it that St Louis, Carolina, and Anaheim have all shown progress in the W/L department?


Last edited by NobodyBeatsTheWiz: 02-29-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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02-29-2012, 03:33 PM
  #502
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What's the best way to track progress? An improved handicap?
I dunno, I think things like these count:

- Semin playing well, playing physica
- Same with Sarge
- Goals against down

I mean, heck, the eye test. We don't give up as many odd man rushes like we used to at one point. Defense seems to be positionally much more sound than we have in the past.

It probably doesn't matter what I list because you're going to tell me what matters is the wins/losses column and that is where we're struggling. And you'd be right. But I like the playstyle under Dale. Of course they are not there 100% (and might not be this year at all) and are inconsistent. Just one man's opinion.

Quote:
And why is it that St Louis, Carolina, and Anaheim have all shown progress in the W/L department?
Each team is different. You can't look at one team and say they did things quicker than we did and feel as though it needs to apply to us. Maybe those teams were always coached better, maybe their players' hockey IQ is higher... who knows.

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02-29-2012, 03:34 PM
  #503
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coaching in DC is vastly overrated regardless. both appear clueless as hell, but the problem is the overpaid core of underperforming softies.

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02-29-2012, 03:40 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by drunksuperhero View Post
coaching in DC is vastly overrated regardless. both appear clueless as hell, but the problem is the overpaid core of underperforming softies.
Yup. I actually have been warming up to Hunter ever since he started becoming a hard a** and saying "You suck. So you don't play. Get better"

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02-29-2012, 03:48 PM
  #505
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Yeah we lack depth at center..but everywhere else we have it. D and G are the most important when playoffs roll around and I like what we have there with Green back and Neuvirth challenging Vokoun.
We have it? Are you referring to the depth D of Hamrlik or Schultz?

Maybe the depth forwards of Knuble and Aucoin and Eakin?

The super deep goalie pool we have had all year??

I don't see any quality depth at all. Green goes down, done. Another center goes down, done. It probably won't even take that we're so thin.

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02-29-2012, 03:50 PM
  #506
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Let's say Dale's 5 month tenure has a hand in Sarge one day being a Norris candidate, regardless of our teams record, he did something right. I doubt it was George's directive to go to man to man, and I think Dale chose JJ and suspect they decided together to make the change. Recognizing young players that need to retool their game should be up his alley. Handling pissed vets, spoiled vets, not so much.

He is learning.

Just getting Sarge sorted out, hitting and potentially being that big physical D we have lacked forever, could be HUGE for this org for the next 10 years. Most things in hockey simply cant be graded overnight, more like 5 years later, lets revisit this.

Coaching such a young core during a tumultuous time, certainly isn't easy, But its also not easy to grade coaches if its GM pulling all the strings.

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02-29-2012, 03:53 PM
  #507
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Let's say Dale's 5 month tenure has a hand in Sarge one day being a Norris candidate, regardless of our teams record, he did something right.
Just had to preserve this one...

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02-29-2012, 03:54 PM
  #508
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This isn't even the best Schultz has played...

Edit: I guess all the Bruce haters believe this proves he was a good coach:

2009-2010 Norris Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)

1. Duncan Keith, CHI 1096 (76-37-14-2-1)
2. Mike Green, WSH 831 (34-46-23-15-9)
3. Drew Doughty, L.A. 662 (15-28-46-25-11)
4. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 303 (4-9-16-28-36)
5. Chris Pronger, PHI 168 (2-3-9-22-16)
6. Dan Boyle, S.J. 116 (1-2-5-15-22)
7. Shea Weber, NSH 96 (1-2-6-12-6)
8. Zdeno Chara, BOS 88 (0-3-7-6-14)
9. Christian Ehrhoff, VAN 21 (0-1-0-3-5)
10. Mark Streit, NYI 15 (0-1-1-1-0)
11. Ryan Suter, NSH 13 (0-0-2-1-0)
12. Brian Rafalski, DET 12 (0-0-2-0-2)
13. Brent Seabrook, CHI 10 (0-0-2-0-0)
14. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
15. Tyler Myers, BUF 6 (0-0-0-0-6)
16T. Dion Phaneuf, TOR 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
16T. Jeff Schultz, WSH 3 (0-0-0-1-0)

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02-29-2012, 04:11 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Let's say Dale's 5 month tenure has a hand in Sarge one day being a Norris candidate, regardless of our teams record, he did something right. I doubt it was George's directive to go to man to man, and I think Dale chose JJ and suspect they decided together to make the change. Recognizing young players that need to retool their game should be up his alley. Handling pissed vets, spoiled vets, not so much.

He is learning.

Just getting Sarge sorted out, hitting and potentially being that big physical D we have lacked forever, could be HUGE for this org for the next 10 years. Most things in hockey simply cant be graded overnight, more like 5 years later, lets revisit this.

Coaching such a young core during a tumultuous time, certainly isn't easy, But its also not easy to grade coaches if its GM pulling all the strings.
Well, I do like the fact that Hunter's not afraid to sit out vets. Maybe communication is not ideal there, but I'll take it over people getting a free pass based on past accomplishments.

But I think the big test as far as Hunter being tough on people is going to be Ovechkin. He's still getting a free pass, it seems..

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02-29-2012, 04:12 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
The stretch that got Bruce fired was 3-7-1. Go back any further and you start piling on wins faster than losses (and not very much farther and you hit that obnoxious 7-0 start).

Prior to this three game win streak, we were 1-5-1 in our last 7. Go back further than that and it's 3-7-2.

So yeah, three game win streak is nice. Where's the progress?
I'm just saying apples to apples (Both now with one star down and this disfunctional line-up)... and since the sample size sucks, its hard to place a standard.

3-7-2... No better than the 3-7-1 but does include major time missed by multiple stars... but still goes back to sample size.

19 more games.

3 game winning streak seams to levy support toward Green's necessity.

I'm not hopeful for any real progress that's measurable. I see a very quick exit per my OP quoted.


Last edited by HSHS: 02-29-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: warden's response below
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02-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #511
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Not 4-12-3...2-2-1 in the five games before 1-5-1

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02-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
This isn't even the best Schultz has played...

Edit: I guess all the Bruce haters believe this proves he was a good coach:

2009-2010 Norris Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)

1. Duncan Keith, CHI 1096 (76-37-14-2-1)
2. Mike Green, WSH 831 (34-46-23-15-9)
3. Drew Doughty, L.A. 662 (15-28-46-25-11)
4. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 303 (4-9-16-28-36)
5. Chris Pronger, PHI 168 (2-3-9-22-16)
6. Dan Boyle, S.J. 116 (1-2-5-15-22)
7. Shea Weber, NSH 96 (1-2-6-12-6)
8. Zdeno Chara, BOS 88 (0-3-7-6-14)
9. Christian Ehrhoff, VAN 21 (0-1-0-3-5)
10. Mark Streit, NYI 15 (0-1-1-1-0)
11. Ryan Suter, NSH 13 (0-0-2-1-0)
12. Brian Rafalski, DET 12 (0-0-2-0-2)
13. Brent Seabrook, CHI 10 (0-0-2-0-0)
14. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
15. Tyler Myers, BUF 6 (0-0-0-0-6)
16T. Dion Phaneuf, TOR 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
16T. Jeff Schultz, WSH 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
So who banged Jeff's mom for that 1 vote?

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02-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #513
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If Backstrom shows up tomorrow I want 19-0 from Dale to match BB's 8-0!

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02-29-2012, 04:39 PM
  #514
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George said the recent stretch from Sarge is the best he has ever seen him play. Regardless of George's TDL comments, which very well may have been to ease the storm around the vet scratches, I had actually been looking forward to see Jeff play, Like I do when I hear a young prospect gets called up. His game has changed a lot - I am pleased to no end. Sure he fell on his arse last night, but he is going to be wiping out alot not being allowed to stand in one place most of the game. I am psyched to see where this goes. We have a big rookie on our hands.

And yeah, even at +50, the Norris voters knew it was a smokescreen.


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02-29-2012, 04:44 PM
  #515
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Schultz has definitely played better lately but I wasn't impressed yesterday other than a few moments.

I think Hammer handles speedy teams better, If the other teams average or below average Schultz is better.


I don't care if Brouwer didn't score for 20 games or whatever before last night, I still love the move. One of my favorites. I thought before Backstrom went out him and Brouwer had a bit of chemistry as well.


Good for Aucoin but he blows I'd rather see Bourque over him and Bourque sucks to. Or even you know that Knuble guy

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02-29-2012, 05:44 PM
  #516
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Dale saw he was challenged by a speedy move and cut his ice time. Maybe as he gets used to his new found ways he needs cut TOI against speedy teams. But at least he is no longer flat footed. He is moving, and he is going to catch someone not once a season on accident, but more like once a game. Even if he fails, we can start to find the ceiling on him versus just going 5 years of... no improvements attempted. Is he going to be a stud LD or not. George needs to know. Sell on a high if he thinks not, but now he can find out conclusively. He didnt know last summer, so he signed Hammer.

I am going to go out on a limb and say he didn't plateau a week ago

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02-29-2012, 06:10 PM
  #517
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I think DFH will be a good coach be he's got a lot of learning to do. I like his general approach but he wasn't the guy to turn this team around this season. I like GM but he has a serious flaw when it comes to letting go a core player and this roster really needs some change. Put that together with some key injuries and here we are.

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02-29-2012, 06:17 PM
  #518
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So who banged Jeff's mom for that 1 vote?
I hear Brooks Laich dubbed her "Mrs. Nasty".

....obviously, because of her strong play along the boards.

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02-29-2012, 06:36 PM
  #519
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Anybody have a clip of the Orlov hit on JT last night?

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02-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #520
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Also is it me but have they seemingly gone away from the complete "fall back and trap" posture they used not so long ago? hmmm
I don't believe DH or JJ ever said they wanted to play a passive game, only that defense would be there priority and until the players did it the way the coaches wanted that would be the focus. Quite frankly before 19 went down they were getting more aggressive on O, but then he got hurt, and the other centers were struggling to fill the gap all over the ice. Add to that some piss poor goaltending and the coaches pulled the reins back in. It took a long time to get things under control and it's still not clear that they are. But it's sufficiently better to let the horses loose a bit again.

NJ will be a big test. And I still seriously doubt we have the depth at C to make real noise in the post-season, but I do think this has a been a difficult learning process for everyone.

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03-01-2012, 07:54 AM
  #521
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We have it? Are you referring to the depth D of Hamrlik or Schultz?

Maybe the depth forwards of Knuble and Aucoin and Eakin?

The super deep goalie pool we have had all year??

I don't see any quality depth at all. Green goes down, done. Another center goes down, done. It probably won't even take that we're so thin.
Hamrlik has been good actually under Hunter. Schultz..I agree with GMGM..by far the best he's ever played. He looks like a top 4 dman to me right now with no question. Love the sandpaper and the fact that he is using his size. His positioning and passing (for a big guy) has always been decent. And Erskine at #8 has always come thru in the playoffs. So yeah..we got lots of depth there.

Knuble would be starting for most teams and will for us again soon. Aucoin has never sucked and the little guy always comes to play.

All our goalies have struggled a bit this year from time to time but each and every one of them can turn it on at any second. Vokoun is a vet with a top save pctg in the league since the lockout. Neuvirth won back to back championships in one of the best leagues in the world outside the NHL. Holtby I have faith in in a pinch.

The main thing is that we are getting more from guys like Semin and Schultz which helps to cover for Backstrom's abscense. We are outhitting opponents on most nights which is shocking.

In a 7 game series this style of play will certainly wear down an opponent.

Have faith. Let's get into the playoffs and I think you'll be surprised.

Quote:
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I don't believe DH or JJ ever said they wanted to play a passive game, only that defense would be there priority and until the players did it the way the coaches wanted that would be the focus. Quite frankly before 19 went down they were getting more aggressive on O, but then he got hurt, and the other centers were struggling to fill the gap all over the ice. Add to that some piss poor goaltending and the coaches pulled the reins back in. It took a long time to get things under control and it's still not clear that they are. But it's sufficiently better to let the horses loose a bit again.

NJ will be a big test. And I still seriously doubt we have the depth at C to make real noise in the post-season, but I do think this has a been a difficult learning process for everyone.
The only complaint I had about Hunter (or the main one) is the Cap Trap. I never liked it with Wilson, Hanlon or BB. Its not only boring but isn't what this team is built for.

Now it seems we are on the attack alot more and not sitting back. I really started seeing it against the game vs the Sharks. But then when we went into Tampa and Carolina we just stayed back the whole game and predictably we lost those in ugly fashion.

We are starting to outshoot and outchance opponents in addition to outhit them. Lets see if this trend can continue.

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03-01-2012, 08:41 AM
  #522
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Nice write up Rouse. Outhitting opponents, shocking indeed. We won't look like noobs at it when the playoffs start, like previous years, a pet peev of mine.

I have thought at times we are/were trapping so much as a <albeit feeble> way for try to force Ovi into line, by making everyone else do it to force him to join. Until he can play solid team defense, he is not going to be out for the ENG chances. When we see him out late in the game up a goal, that means he has bought in. The jury is out, is neutering Ovi into being responsible best for our team as constructed? It's hard to say. He has his D shortcomings but I for one dont blame any playoff loses on his shoulders. But shaping him and the rest of the players into being able to trap, to hit, be able to all out blitz, and everything in between, should bode well to keep coaches guessing in a (almost guarateed full 7 game) first round series.

Thats when the benefits of all the crap coaches preach and try and the RS are put to the test. The chess match, begins.


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03-01-2012, 08:49 AM
  #523
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Nice write up Rouse. Outhitting opponents, shocking indeed. We won't look like noobs at it when the playoffs start, like previous years, a pet peev of mine.

I have think we are/were trapping so much as a <albeit feeble> way for try to force Ovi into line. Until he can play solid team defense, he is not going to be out for the ENG chances. When we see him out late in the game up a goal, that means he has bought in. The jury is out, is neutering Ovi into being responsible best for our team as constructed? It's hard to say. He has his D shortcomings but I for one dont blame any playoff loses on his shoulders. But shaping him and the rest of players into being able to trap, to hit, be able to all out blitz, and everything in between, should bode well to keep coaches guessing in a (almost guarateed full 7 game) first round series.

Thats when the benefits of all the crap coaches preach and try and the RS are put to the test. The chess match, begins.
I want to continue to see 30+ shots and mid teens+ scoring chances per game. If we could do that AND continue the hitting trend we will win most of our games.

Good point on OV. That is a possibility. We had too many players who developed a lackidasical habit of not playing as hard defensively as they should have.

I hope we stick with the "blitz" more often than not. Its beginning to be fun to watch again. Hopefully they don't revert to the prevent.

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03-01-2012, 08:54 AM
  #524
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Good comments.

I am guessing that that trap was implemented 1) to get them through the winter learning a new system and 2) to be practiced in closing out "playoff" games once scoring returned.

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03-01-2012, 09:45 AM
  #525
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Maybe we are following the Tampa 005 blueprint in a way. We laughed and booed at them, but they got the last laugh in our face. It was a painful lesson learned.

FBOFW, I do welcome the training to prepare to take the foot off the neck if needed. Instead of just telling everyone, "um don't do so much attacking, you know stay back some", have an actual practiced structured plan in place to preserve the lead. There is a fine line there, you dont want to go FULL prevent, but you dont want Ovi cherry picking when we are up 3 goals with 5 minutes left, or him to learn how to play D on the fly in game 7. Prevent has its merits since most coaches across many sports will implore it, although most all fans hate it of course.

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