HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Holmgren faces tough decision with JVR

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-01-2012, 09:18 AM
  #1
MiamiScreamingEagles
Global Moderator
A Fistful of Dollars
 
MiamiScreamingEagles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 38,950
vCash: 1183
Holmgren faces tough decision with JVR

Quote:
When Paul Holmgren takes his place at the GM table this summer, it will be interesting to see whether he puts the JVR chip into play. Holmgren has been patiently sitting on it for nearly five years now. Will this be the off-season he cashes it in?

No question, James van Riemsdyk is entering the most important 20 games (and quite possibly the playoffs) of his Flyers career, that could determine his future in this city. As Holmgren recently said, “All season people have been asking about him.”

It's a good sign, a very good sign that just about every team in the league has inquired into the availability of van Riemsdyk. His stock is still high and GMs across the league see the potential that it could climb even higher. If there was a JVR prospectus, it would highlight the following: size, great teammate, 100-mph slap shot, an above-average skater with speed, soft hands and can play strong on the puck at times.
http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...986&feedID=695

MiamiScreamingEagles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 09:22 AM
  #2
Krishna
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 81,744
vCash: 50
If he wants to stay around he needs to show the fight to give it his all every shift like he did in the playoffs and like Voracek does now.. Also needs to use his god damn size and stop playing like he is as big as briere..

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 09:34 AM
  #3
Rick Deckard
Registered User
 
Rick Deckard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,407
vCash: 500
Yesterday Broad Street Hockey also had an article about James vanRiemsdyk:

Quote:
[...]

This year, van Riemsdyk is taking on somewhat tougher competition (his Corsi Rel QoC is up from 0.663 to 0.789). He is doing it with weaker linemates -- no offense to Wayne Simmonds or Jakub Voracek, but last year van Riemsdyk's most common linemates were Mike Richards, Jeff Carter and Claude Giroux.

And yet despite those added challenges, if van Riemsdyk were getting the same luck on his own shots as he had last year, his goal-scoring rate would be up by about 20-25 percent. If he were getting the same luck on his teammates' shots as he had last year, his assist rate might be up by 40-50 percent.

That would put him on pace for something like 29 goals and 60 points over an 82-game season, which certainly shouldn't be a disappointment -- in fact, it's awfully good for someone who's only playing 15:20 per game.

James van Riemsdyk has improved quite a bit this year. Don't let unrealistically high preseason hopes color your judgment; he's shown a lot of progress this year and only a drop in shooting percentage luck is holding him back.

Rick Deckard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 09:38 AM
  #4
Krishna
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 81,744
vCash: 50
I say we keep him with Giroux like he was the last game or two and see what happens

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 09:42 AM
  #5
thelos
Bunk
 
thelos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,584
vCash: 500
he was pretty physical vs SJ. Good to see

thelos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:03 AM
  #6
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Why not put him with Giroux. I personally like JVR-Giroux-Schenn as the line of the future. Hartnell still gets #1 PP and then you come back with Hartnell-Briere-Jagr. The Giroux line has not been so good that it should stay intact. JVR has more skill then Hartnell, let Hartnell and Simmonds dominant the PP and give JVR first line

JVR-Giroux-Schenn
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
Voracek-Talbot-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo

First PP: Hartnell-Giroux-Simmonds-Timonen-Kubina
Second PP: JVR-Briere-Jagr-Carle-Voracek

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:08 AM
  #7
BillDineen
Registered User
 
BillDineen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
1- JVR has a great playoff

2- JVR gets an extension

3- JVR has a slow start, is rumored to be hurt and then gets a concussion

4- Burke is rumored to covet JVR and L. Schenn, having a below expectation season is suddenly someone the media/bloggers thinks might get JVR and rumors start

5- GMs call Homer wanting JVR and he turns them down

6- Homer has a tough decision to make?????????????????

I couldn't finish the Boruk article. It is just crap.

On to Broad St.

JVR generated 70 shots in 11 playoff games vs 173 in 75 regular season games. Let that sink in before trying to read through it all.

Further, Corsi is based on missed and blocked shots on top of shots that hit the net or go in. So, if you have a team that goes for quick shots from the perimeter vs a puck possession team like Detroit, that waits for higher quality shots that actually get on net, your team will have higher corsi numbers.

Further example: A winger playing with high and wide Jeff Carter will have better "teamates" because of the extra shots generated primarily from Carter. Does that mean the player is getting more point opportunities? No. He is simply playing with a shoot first center that does not pass.

Please consider the basis of these "smart" articles, they are often just a lot of crap.

JVR's extension is based on being a player between what he was last regular season and (at a high) what he was in the playoffs. Fans want more drive, like we saw in the playoffs and the media/bloggers like JVR trade rumors, but their is no indication at all the Flyers are at a decision point with JVR. They like him.

BillDineen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:14 AM
  #8
Krishna
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 81,744
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why not put him with Giroux. I personally like JVR-Giroux-Schenn as the line of the future. Hartnell still gets #1 PP and then you come back with Hartnell-Briere-Jagr. The Giroux line has not been so good that it should stay intact. JVR has more skill then Hartnell, let Hartnell and Simmonds dominant the PP and give JVR first line

JVR-Giroux-Schenn
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
Voracek-Talbot-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo

First PP: Hartnell-Giroux-Simmonds-Timonen-Kubina
Second PP: JVR-Briere-Jagr-Carle-Voracek
I'd rather it be like this

JVR - Giroux - Jagr
Hartnell - Schenn - Briere
Voracek - Talbot/couturier - simmonds
Read - Talbot/Couturier - Rinaldo

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:20 AM
  #9
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Nothing exactly earth-shattering here. It's never been a secret that if JVR hopes to fulfill his immense potential, he needs to get meaner, more assertive, more physical, and more confident (God knows how many times I've written those exact words before on this board). In order to be a power forward in this league, he needs to play with, you know, power. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be a part of JVR's innate personality. You either have that edge as part of your mental makeup, or you don't. It's not something that can simply be manufactured. The times when JVR has played with a snarl, he's been downright unstoppable. The problem, as Boruk points out, is his consistency when it comes to playing that way. He still plays way too soft for a guy his size and far too often reminds me of Jeff Carter when he streaks down the wing and tries to beat the defender wide with his speed... only to eventually run out of real estate and either lose the puck along the boards or fire a weak shot on net from a bad angle. Rinse, wash, repeat. JVR barely even tries to stick-handle through defenders anymore, which makes me wonder if he himself has internal doubts pertaining to his skill level.

We keep waiting and waiting for something to click with JVR and for him to take off, but I know I'm not alone when I say I'm increasingly dubious if it will ever happen. Regardless of the fact that he's been playing with a nagging injury this season, I'd still sell while his value around the league is high and try to acquire a legitimate top-four defenseman in return -- which is something this team needs more desperately for the immediate future anyway.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:23 AM
  #10
FlyerGuy18
Registered User
 
FlyerGuy18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The PA of USA
Country: United States
Posts: 332
vCash: 500
If they do trade him, I'd bet everything I own that JvR would start playing like the Flyers wanted to within a year.

FlyerGuy18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:42 AM
  #11
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerGuy18 View Post
If they do trade him, I'd bet everything I own that JvR would start playing like the Flyers wanted to within a year.
Yup, if they trade him, it will be the biggest mistake this franchise will ever make.

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:44 AM
  #12
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,692
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
Yesterday Broad Street Hockey also had an article about James vanRiemsdyk:
One thing I hate about this article is all the talk about if he was lucky? I'm sorry I hate when people base statistics on luck. Well if every player was luckier they would all score 100 points. I know a lot of you believe in the corsi and fenwick ****, but I believe GM's and coaches haven't really caught on to it for a reason. Let's base a players evaluation on if he was luckier and not how he really performed. (not saying that corsi and Fenwick is based on lucked)

He is playing 15 mins a game for a reason this year. He has been extremely inconsistent. That has nothing to do with luck. You can say effort or whatever effects him being inconsistent, but luck? Look at Voracek, I would say he is the unluckiest if you go that way, but he plays more and busts his ass every shift. I actually think Voracek just has no finishing ability, not unlucky. Sorry a little rant about basing statistics on luck . I hate it. I also understand people probably won't agree at all with this post but its just how I feel. I also know there is luck involved in sports, but lets not judge players performances on it.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:47 AM
  #13
Mgkibbles
Registered User
 
Mgkibbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Gilbertsville, Pa
Posts: 2,013
vCash: 500
I'd trade Schenn before JVR.

Mgkibbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:56 AM
  #14
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why not put him with Giroux. I personally like JVR-Giroux-Schenn as the line of the future. Hartnell still gets #1 PP and then you come back with Hartnell-Briere-Jagr. The Giroux line has not been so good that it should stay intact. JVR has more skill then Hartnell, let Hartnell and Simmonds dominant the PP and give JVR first line

JVR-Giroux-Schenn
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
Voracek-Talbot-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo

First PP: Hartnell-Giroux-Simmonds-Timonen-Kubina
Second PP: JVR-Briere-Jagr-Carle-Voracek
I like it.

Unstable is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 10:57 AM
  #15
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,868
vCash: 500
JVR is a quandary. Sometimes it is Beast Mode and sometimes he evaporates.

My biggest issue is I don't see the finishing touch.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:05 AM
  #16
GoneFullHolmgren
def. hockey FAIL
 
GoneFullHolmgren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 29,793
vCash: 50
My gut feeling is that hes gone this offseason. Holmgren probably could of moved him at the deadline, but he doesnt like dealing roster players during the season.
I hope I am wrong because I like the kid, but I just get the feeling holmgren may get a deal to good to pass up this offseason.

GoneFullHolmgren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:07 AM
  #17
MiamiScreamingEagles
Global Moderator
A Fistful of Dollars
 
MiamiScreamingEagles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 38,950
vCash: 1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
My gut feeling is that hes gone this offseason. Holmgren probably could of moved him at the deadline, but he doesnt like dealing roster players during the season.
I hope I am wrong because I like the kid, but I just get the feeling holmgren may get a deal to good to pass up this offseason.
Have you seen JVR's brother play?

MiamiScreamingEagles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:10 AM
  #18
Kaktus*
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 500
I still do not understand why Holmgren gave him such contract.
Just like I did not undertsand Lupul's deal.

Kaktus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:13 AM
  #19
thelos
Bunk
 
thelos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,584
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
I still do not understand why Holmgren gave him such contract.
Just like I did not undertsand Lupul's deal.
yeah Both were premature

thelos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:15 AM
  #20
BillDineen
Registered User
 
BillDineen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
One thing I hate about this article is all the talk about if he was lucky? I'm sorry I hate when people base statistics on luck. Well if every player was luckier they would all score 100 points. I know a lot of you believe in the corsi and fenwick ****, but I believe GM's and coaches haven't really caught on to it for a reason. Let's base a players evaluation on if he was luckier and not how he really performed. (not saying that corsi and Fenwick is based on lucked)

He is playing 15 mins a game for a reason this year. He has been extremely inconsistent. That has nothing to do with luck. You can say effort or whatever effects him being inconsistent, but luck? Look at Voracek, I would say he is the unluckiest if you go that way, but he plays more and busts his ass every shift. I actually think Voracek just has no finishing ability, not unlucky. Sorry a little rant about basing statistics on luck . I hate it. I also understand people probably won't agree at all with this post but its just how I feel. I also know there is luck involved in sports, but lets not judge players performances on it.
I have a math related job and have worked with many quants in the past (even a former professor of Nuclear Physics), so I respect math. I also believe that looking at on base % vs hits in baseball makes intuitive sense. Corsi however, is like counting the number of times a batter makes contact with his bat on the ball (fouls, hits that led to outs and on base) vs the number of times pitched at. That intuitively does not make sense to me.

I almost vomited when I heard a reporter ask Lavy if he looks at Corsi or Fenwick a few weeks ago.

Flyers have said in the past they keep their own stats. Other organizations to look at stats. (If I recall correctly, Babcock or someone else from the Wings mentioned that there was no puck possession statistic they could get). I would guess that any organization would use their own determined scoring chances or rank shots in terms of their position and develop proprietary models. These bloggers and reporters use Corsi and Fenwick because they are from public websites and including them makes them sound smart.

All analysis is not wrong, it should just be taken with a grain of salt IMO.

BillDineen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:18 AM
  #21
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
1- JVR has a great playoff

2- JVR gets an extension

3- JVR has a great start to the season

4- JVR starts to slow down, appears sluggish, is rumored to be hurt and then gets a concussion

5- Burke is rumored to covet JVR and L. Schenn, having a below expectation season is suddenly someone the media/bloggers thinks might get JVR and rumors start

6- GMs call Homer wanting JVR and he turns them down

7- PROFIT?????
Honestly, I say we keep JVR. He's gonna be a beast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge11 View Post
yeah Both were premature
Both recognized potential.

Look at what Lupul is accomplishing now in Toronto.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:21 AM
  #22
Rick Deckard
Registered User
 
Rick Deckard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
One thing I hate about this article is all the talk about if he was lucky? I'm sorry I hate when people base statistics on luck. Well if every player was luckier they would all score 100 points. I know a lot of you believe in the corsi and fenwick ****, but I believe GM's and coaches haven't really caught on to it for a reason. Let's base a players evaluation on if he was luckier and not how he really performed. (not saying that corsi and Fenwick is based on lucked)

He is playing 15 mins a game for a reason this year. He has been extremely inconsistent. That has nothing to do with luck. You can say effort or whatever effects him being inconsistent, but luck? Look at Voracek, I would say he is the unluckiest if you go that way, but he plays more and busts his ass every shift. I actually think Voracek just has no finishing ability, not unlucky. Sorry a little rant about basing statistics on luck . I hate it. I also understand people probably won't agree at all with this post but its just how I feel. I also know there is luck involved in sports, but lets not judge players performances on it.
I think he does the exact opposite in the article, he takes away the part he thinks is luck (scoring a goal or not) and bases his analysis on the things JVR can control, the amount of shots he takes and the distance he shoots from. His conclusion is that he shoots more from a shorter distance and therefor has a better season.

I don't completely agree with his presumption, but I can see his reasoning.

Rick Deckard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:24 AM
  #23
BillDineen
Registered User
 
BillDineen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Honestly, I say we keep JVR. He's gonna be a beast.



Both recognized potential.

Look at what Lupul is accomplishing now in Toronto.
I mentioned Lupul and Versteeg in some other thread about the Flyers' ability to recognize talent.

I do think with some players, they do better being "the guy" rather than just one of many good guys. Lupul and Versteeg are relied upon more on their current teams.

If JVR was in Lupul's place in Toronto, he might be producing at a greater point-per-minute pace. In the playoffs, he seemed to carry the team on his shoulders many games. G is doing that this regular season.

BillDineen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:28 AM
  #24
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,692
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Honestly, I say we keep JVR. He's gonna be a beast.



Both recognized potential.

Look at what Lupul is accomplishing now in Toronto.
Someone on here compared JVR to John Leclair, and I think it was a great comparison.

John Leclair didn't exactly light it up with Montreal in his first 5 seasons. He gets traded in the midst of a 26 goal campaign in 46 games with Montreal and becomes a superstar in Philly. I just KNOW for a fact when we trade JVR (if we do), it will turn out to like the Leclair trade. He will thrive with his new team and score 35-40 goals in his first season. Leclair of course scored 51 in his first full season as a Flyer.

Moral of the story is I think we would be making a huge mistake trading a developing 22 year old power forward. Let him reach his potential before letting him go. I wanna see if he can make it here first, instead of tossing him under the bus.

John Leclair was my favorite Flyer Just wanted to throw that in there

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 11:31 AM
  #25
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
I just KNOW for a fact when we trade JVR (if we do), it will turn out to like the Leclair trade.
Me too. Me too.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.