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Holmgren faces tough decision with JVR

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Old
03-01-2012, 11:31 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why not put him with Giroux. I personally like JVR-Giroux-Schenn as the line of the future. Hartnell still gets #1 PP and then you come back with Hartnell-Briere-Jagr. The Giroux line has not been so good that it should stay intact. JVR has more skill then Hartnell, let Hartnell and Simmonds dominant the PP and give JVR first line

JVR-Giroux-Schenn
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
Voracek-Talbot-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo

First PP: Hartnell-Giroux-Simmonds-Timonen-Kubina
Second PP: JVR-Briere-Jagr-Carle-Voracek
You need Meszaros on the PP in my opinion.

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Old
03-01-2012, 11:32 AM
  #27
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If they are going to trade him, why sign him to a long deal? Homer is a little weird. Sign a guy to a long term deal and then trade him. Makes no sense.

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03-01-2012, 11:33 AM
  #28
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What would we get back for JVR?? He said during the deadline teams were calling but he had no intentions of trading him, but we know not to believe that man ever!

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03-01-2012, 11:35 AM
  #29
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If he is the main piece in a trade for someone like Weber, I take that offer in a heartbeat. Otherwise, we need to hang onto JVR.

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03-01-2012, 11:36 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BWAVgal View Post
If they are going to trade him, why sign him to a long deal? Homer is a little weird. Sign a guy to a long term deal and then trade him. Makes no sense.
Possibly to have him locked down for awhile thus being more valuable to the team

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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
What would we get back for JVR?? He said during the deadline teams were calling but he had no intentions of trading him, but we know not to believe that man ever!
Niemi

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03-01-2012, 11:37 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
What would we get back for JVR?? He said during the deadline teams were calling but he had no intentions of trading him, but we know not to believe that man ever!
What would you give up for Bobby Ryan?

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03-01-2012, 11:38 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
What would you give up for Bobby Ryan?
my soul

NHL player, top Prospect and a pick

I think Bobby Ryan is better now then JVR and would get more of a return for him.


Last edited by Prongo: 03-01-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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Old
03-01-2012, 11:39 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Have you seen JVR's brother play?
I havent had much time this year to go to any UNH games due to work. But from what I understand hes played pretty well for a freshman on a not so good UNH team. good size, can handle the puck and pretty good composure for a freshman.

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03-01-2012, 11:44 AM
  #34
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Apparently SJ called about JVR on deadline day. They said they would give up Niemi. Of course we play them on Tuesday and get shutout by him

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03-01-2012, 11:48 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
I still do not understand why Holmgren gave him such contract.
Just like I did not undertsand Lupul's deal.
Lupul's contract was justified. IMO Lupul was the most offensively gifted Flyer on that roster. He had phenomenal puck control almost never turning the puck over, rarely missed the net, one of the most physical forwards on the team, would frequently wow with his ability to general shots and quality passes.

The only downfall to Lupul was he was incredibly injury prone and he would always struggle when returning from injury. What Lupul is doing this season is basically what he showed his 1st season with us before Hatcher leveled him giving him a spinal cord injury and his 4th concussion, later followed by an ankle injury after he returned. It kept happening every year too he had that whole back surgery that lasted about a year and then he had a blood infection.

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03-01-2012, 11:55 AM
  #36
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Lupul was also incredibily streaky. he would have the ability to go off for 20 points in 10m games, then in the next 10 games got 1.

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03-01-2012, 12:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why not put him with Giroux. I personally like JVR-Giroux-Schenn as the line of the future. Hartnell still gets #1 PP and then you come back with Hartnell-Briere-Jagr. The Giroux line has not been so good that it should stay intact. JVR has more skill then Hartnell, let Hartnell and Simmonds dominant the PP and give JVR first line

JVR-Giroux-Schenn
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
Voracek-Talbot-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo

First PP: Hartnell-Giroux-Simmonds-Timonen-Kubina
Second PP: JVR-Briere-Jagr-Carle-Voracek
I like this, G needs a new winger than Jagr, because Jagr won,t be around for 10 years. If G and JVR can find chemistry together, they could dominate for years to come. I'm not sure about Schenn playing wing, though, he's a natural center.

I'd also love to see Hartnell - Briere - Jagr, and I think that it would really help Briere to play like he used too (very important in the playoffs). It would be like HBL, but with Jagr instead of Leino, which is a huge upgrade. Leino protected the puck well, and feeded Briere and Hartnell. Imagine Jagr doing the same thing, he's 10x better at this.

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Old
03-01-2012, 12:18 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
I like this, G needs a new winger than Jagr, because Jagr won,t be around for 10 years. If G and JVR can find chemistry together, they could dominate for years to come. I'm not sure about Schenn playing wing, though, he's a natural center.

I'd also love to see Hartnell - Briere - Jagr, and I think that it would really help Briere to play like he used too (very important in the playoffs). It would be like HBL, but with Jagr instead of Leino, which is a huge upgrade. Leino protected the puck well, and feeded Briere and Hartnell. Imagine Jagr doing the same thing, he's 10x better at this.
Agreed. I put him there simply because I want to see Schenn on the first line to see what the kid can do.


JVR-Giroux-Simmonds/Voracek
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
Talbot-Schenn-Simmonds/Voracek
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo

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Old
03-01-2012, 12:19 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Lupul was also incredibily streaky. he would have the ability to go off for 20 points in 10m games, then in the next 10 games got 1.
Keep in mind he was only 100% for his first 3 months as a Flyer (he potted 16-19-35 in 37 games). This season as a Leaf is literally his 1st season at 100% since then. The really big streaks in his career came after the concussions and spine and back injuries. IMO the most telling stat in how he is feeling is his hits. The higher his hit total the higher his points. Before he got hurt his 1st season with us he was leading the Flyers in hits. After the injuries it significantly dropped and stayed low the next season as well as his return to the Ducks.

I truly believe if Lupul has been a star player all these years but injuries have been his biggest enemy.

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Old
03-01-2012, 02:10 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by BWAVgal View Post
If they are going to trade him, why sign him to a long deal? Homer is a little weird. Sign a guy to a long term deal and then trade him. Makes no sense.
Better he is signed if we are going to trade him hope not but **** happens we should get better value in trade cause he is signed then if he wasnt.....

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Old
03-01-2012, 02:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Someone on here compared JVR to John Leclair, and I think it was a great comparison.

John Leclair didn't exactly light it up with Montreal in his first 5 seasons.
He gets traded in the midst of a 26 goal campaign in 46 games with Montreal and becomes a superstar in Philly. I just KNOW for a fact when we trade JVR (if we do), it will turn out to like the Leclair trade. He will thrive with his new team and score 35-40 goals in his first season. Leclair of course scored 51 in his first full season as a Flyer.

Moral of the story is I think we would be making a huge mistake trading a developing 22 year old power forward. Let him reach his potential before letting him go. I wanna see if he can make it here first, instead of tossing him under the bus.

John Leclair was my favorite Flyer Just wanted to throw that in there
The question is whether it is worth it waiting 5 seasons until a player starts performing on a regular basis or does it make more sense to swap him for a player who can make an impact right now??? The cap limit does not exactly help his case either.

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Old
03-01-2012, 02:46 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Tim Tebow View Post
Lupul's contract was justified. IMO Lupul was the most offensively gifted Flyer on that roster. He had phenomenal puck control almost never turning the puck over, rarely missed the net, one of the most physical forwards on the team, would frequently wow with his ability to general shots and quality passes.

The only downfall to Lupul was he was incredibly injury prone and he would always struggle when returning from injury. What Lupul is doing this season is basically what he showed his 1st season with us before Hatcher leveled him giving him a spinal cord injury and his 4th concussion, later followed by an ankle injury after he returned. It kept happening every year too he had that whole back surgery that lasted about a year and then he had a blood infection.
When Lupul was traded to Anaheim he was already a salary dump. What do you mean only downfall? He was soft, one dimensional and plays very weak D. He had half of season with us when he was decent playing with M.Richards before like you said he was leveled by Hatcher.

He has a wrist shot and ok puck control. Please.. that was a very poor signing by Homer.

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Old
03-01-2012, 02:48 PM
  #43
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Further, Corsi is based on missed and blocked shots on top of shots that hit the net or go in. So, if you have a team that goes for quick shots from the perimeter vs a puck possession team like Detroit, that waits for higher quality shots that actually get on net, your team will have higher corsi numbers.
Do you ever know what you're talking about? Last installment you had us resigning Carle based on the rationale that netted MORE RANDY JONES.

The better your Corsi the better your puck possession. Detroit was 2nd overall in Corsi in 2010/2011 season. Corsi shows successful puck possession.

The idea is simple: You have to have the puck in order to shoot it.

Quote:
Further example: A winger playing with high and wide Jeff Carter will have better "teamates" because of the extra shots generated primarily from Carter. Does that mean the player is getting more point opportunities? No. He is simply playing with a shoot first center that does not pass.
Shooting generates additional scoring chances. Of course he's getting more point opportunities. He's taking more shots than not. Even if we were to accept Jeff Carter as some sort of refutation of advanced stats, Jeff Carter would be an outlier. Overwhelmingly, hockey players pass the puck around to increase the likelihood of a high percentage shot.

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03-01-2012, 03:08 PM
  #44
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I think he does the exact opposite in the article, he takes away the part he thinks is luck (scoring a goal or not) and bases his analysis on the things JVR can control, the amount of shots he takes and the distance he shoots from. His conclusion is that he shoots more from a shorter distance and therefor has a better season.

I don't completely agree with his presumption, but I can see his reasoning.
Just gotta watch out for BSH, for they consider "luck" as something statistical. They used the same reasoning behind why Boucher let in more than Leighton (said he was just plain unlucky), and why Nodl didnt score goals (said he had terrible luck).

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Old
03-01-2012, 04:17 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by nitroglycerin View Post
When Lupul was traded to Anaheim he was already a salary dump. What do you mean only downfall? He was soft, one dimensional and plays very weak D. He had half of season with us when he was decent playing with M.Richards before like you said he was leveled by Hatcher.

He has a wrist shot and ok puck control. Please.. that was a very poor signing by Homer.
Almost everything you said is the exact opposite of his stats and scouting reports haha.

Lupul is soft... yet he would hit more people then Hartnell, Richards, Upshall, Cote, Downie... He is doing it yet again this year with 107 hits in 64 games good enough for #2 on the Leafs forwards only behind Steckel. Hits wise this season he is matching Wayne Simmonds. IMO a soft player is someone who avoids physical play and does not use their body. Like Jeff Carter who has 10 hits all season. Lupul uses his body, he is not soft.

If Lupul's shot is okay you might as well say the same about Richards and Carter. Richards and Lupul shoot 11% while Carter shoots 10%. Carter and Richards both miss the net more frequently then Lupul does.

Lupul had only 17 turnovers that season. Which a soft player with ok puck handling who logged top 6 minutes is like a miracle.

The only thing that was almost accurate was Lupul not being good defensively. Lupul was not terrible defensively but he wasn't good ether. He was just average. But then again so are most top line players.



Anyone with any common sense can see his career was derailed by serious health injuries. Homer signed him to an extension thinking his health was in order, none of us could see what was ahead for Lupul. Lupul started getting reoccuring back spasms that resulted in him having numbness in his limbs. He ultimately has surgery on the nerves in his spine. It does not take and he has to have the surgery all over again but now it has complications and he develops a blood infection resulting in him being in unbelievable pain and unable to even walk and hardly move for over a month. Lupul lost almost 40 pounds and many thought his career would be over. The fact that he is even playing is unbelievable.

Is it seriously that hard to believe that the period of struggles from his 1st spine injury to him finally being symptom free over 3 years later is not the reason his play declined?

Injuries are the only thing that help Lupul from living up to that contract something Homer could not see considering our own doctors had cleared him.

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Old
03-01-2012, 04:21 PM
  #46
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It's not a tough choice Holmgren, just don't trade him.

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03-01-2012, 04:41 PM
  #47
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JVR - Giroux - Simmonds
Hartnell - Briere - Jagr
Voracek - Schenn - whatever
4th line

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Old
03-01-2012, 08:58 PM
  #48
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So much skill! Too bad he can't finish a happy meal. Van Useless reminds me of Nik Antropov. He definitely needs another 5 years in the oven.

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Old
03-01-2012, 10:54 PM
  #49
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I think I'm more concerned about voracek going forward. I really don't know that he's worth any more than he's making now and will obviously want a raise this off season, and I think they should trade him at the draft while his stock is still high as an rfa.

I like jvrs potential and skillset a lot more than I like voraceks.

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03-01-2012, 11:08 PM
  #50
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JVR - Giroux - Simmonds
Hartnell - Briere - Jagr
Voracek - Schenn - whatever
4th line
Forget someone?


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