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Why Karlsson will not win the Norris

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03-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It was Gonchar in the box.

I saw Sens fans saying that he'd been put out there deliberately at a key point in the game, but with Gilroy as the only other option, it was pretty much a no-brainer.

That being said, he was fine out there, and held out a two-man advantage and preserved a one goal shutout.
Usually Kuba - Cowen is the PK pair, obviously they felt more comfortable with Karlsson than Cowen

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03-01-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Usually Kuba - Cowen is the PK pair, obviously they felt more comfortable with Karlsson than Cowen
I may be remembering wrong but I'm pretty sure it was Kuba-Phillips, Cowen-Karlsson for those last few mins. Usually it's Phillips-Gonchar, Kuba-Cowen but with Gonchar in the box...

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03-01-2012, 01:24 PM
  #28
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They only had 4 guys available, and I'm pretty sure all 4 of them played.

Someone can check the shift chart though if they want.

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03-01-2012, 01:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by peon View Post
I may be remembering wrong but I'm pretty sure it was Kuba-Phillips, Cowen-Karlsson for those last few mins. Usually it's Phillips-Gonchar, Kuba-Cowen but with Gonchar in the box...
my bad

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03-01-2012, 01:27 PM
  #30
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OK, so my retort to Norris nay-sayer PK-players is, "Oh yeah? Well, he's better at it than Gilroy!"

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03-01-2012, 01:28 PM
  #31
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Too bad it's not the scouts around the league, the guys who actually know all the players & see them play regularly that vote for these things. I think Karlsson will win the Norris trophy & not just because of points although he is miles ahead of anyone else but because the team has also done so well when all the experts had us dead last. I think he will get the recognition from writers around the league who see the team doing so well, see him personally do so well & will tie the two together. Obviously Spezza has a lot to do with that as well but basically the two have carried the team all yr.

While IMO Chara & Weber are the more complete defencemen who can play in any situation Karlsson has had a noteable improvement defensively this yr which I think has also been written about extensively. In this day & age there are numerous ways of reading up about any player & getting varied opinions but leading all defencemen at 21 yrs of age is impressive in anybodies book. I also think that this is the yr that Lidstrom is unseated, he is having a so so yr playing on a great hockey team, IMO his time is over & Karlsson is the new sherrif in town.

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03-01-2012, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
my bad
Phillips - Karlsson for the last few seconds at least (I checked) with Gonchar playing forward LOL.

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03-01-2012, 01:30 PM
  #33
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Well, I checked it out for fun.

Gonchar took the penalty at 17:51. He got out of the box at 19:51.

Cowen: 17:51 to 18:30.
Kuba: 17:51 to 18:30.

Phillips: 18:30 to 20:00.
Karlsson: 18:30 to 20:00.

Thomas left the ice at 19:02.

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03-01-2012, 01:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
With that being said, it clearly shows that writers, in some cases, vote purely based on reputation. But if reputation is stronger than seeing Erik play for 64 games, then I don't see how he can win the award this season.
This. One thousand times this. There are still preconceived notions about Erik out there, that he's a turnover machine and that he is easily moved off the puck, that he's all offense and no defense. On top of that, he's very young. Votes will likely go to Weber, Chara, Lidstrom whom are all safer choices. Erik will get votes for sure, but if one of our local writers won't vote for him...Karlsson is going to have to be sterling defensively for a while to get the accolades.

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03-01-2012, 01:40 PM
  #35
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You've probably already seen this, but here's what Karlsson's up against: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...HRlc3QD;_ylv=3

Quote:
The Green debate will be revisited with Karlsson, undoubtedly.

Why did I have him fourth on my current ballot? For one, because I've seen enough of Karlsson this year to understand that he's borderline average in his own zone; and Karlsson doesn't face the same quality of competition as peers like Weber, Suter, Girardi and Lidstrom.

Of the top 20 defensemen in average ice time this season, only one averages fewer minutes playing shorthanded than Erik Karlsson (0:35 per game): Dustin Byfuglien of the Winnipeg Jets (0:32).

Granted, Pavel Datsyuk didn't play shorthanded in some of his Selke years, based on how his coached wished to deploy him. But that's not because he couldn't be effective in the role; can the same be said of Karlsson?

When I supported Mike Green's candidacy in 2008-09 — his 31 goals being more impressive than Karlsson's points, by the way — I supported a player that averaged 2:28 TOI shorthanded.


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03-01-2012, 01:44 PM
  #36
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Girardi and Lidstrom? REALLY?

I guess he hasn't been watching much of anything carefully.

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03-01-2012, 01:46 PM
  #37
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I think alot of what Brucie said probably has to do with not wanting to look biased. What he says on the radio and what he actually does could be two different things. Or, I am giving Brucie too much credit here.

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03-01-2012, 01:49 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marble View Post
You've probably already seen this, but here's what Karlsson's up against: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...HRlc3QD;_ylv=3
Came here to post this. That article is full of holes. He only makes his point by dissecting the very few "less than perfect" aspects of EK's game. How is he borderline average in his own zone? He's rather above average and doesn't seem to make any glaring mistakes leading to goals, well at least no more than other top defensemen in the NHL.

Anyway, gotta agree with Jerk Store et al. Erik won't win the Norris because the voters simply don't want to give it to a 21 year-old. It's sad really.

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03-01-2012, 01:51 PM
  #39
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here's the thing...

no voter isnt going to put karlsson in the top 3, probably top 2.

the question is if one of lidstrom/weber/chara can put up enough more 1st place votes than karlsson to make up for the 4th/5th votes they'll be getting.

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03-01-2012, 01:54 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
Too bad it's not the scouts around the league, the guys who actually know all the players & see them play regularly that vote for these things. I think Karlsson will win the Norris trophy & not just because of points although he is miles ahead of anyone else but because the team has also done so well when all the experts had us dead last. I think he will get the recognition from writers around the league who see the team doing so well, see him personally do so well & will tie the two together. Obviously Spezza has a lot to do with that as well but basically the two have carried the team all yr.

While IMO Chara & Weber are the more complete defencemen who can play in any situation Karlsson has had a noteable improvement defensively this yr which I think has also been written about extensively. In this day & age there are numerous ways of reading up about any player & getting varied opinions but leading all defencemen at 21 yrs of age is impressive in anybodies book. I also think that this is the yr that Lidstrom is unseated, he is having a so so yr playing on a great hockey team, IMO his time is over & Karlsson is the new sherrif in town.
Good post. It should also be noted that Karlsson doesn't have a Bruins or even Predators quality team around him to elevate his play even further. Along with Spezza, EK has been the driving force behind our surprisingly good season despite not having all the necessary elements Chara and Lidstrom are surrounded with in order to perform adequately.

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03-01-2012, 02:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Pancakes Pancakes View Post
I think alot of what Brucie said probably has to do with not wanting to look biased. What he says on the radio and what he actually does could be two different things. Or, I am giving Brucie too much credit here.
I would like to believe that, but that was a pretty embarrassing moment for Bruce yesterday, getting called out like that.

These votes count for something, as these personal awards are often a factor when evaluating a players' career, Hall of Fame eligibility, etc.

I just think that more thought should be put in casting these votes. If Garrioch's sample is 4 games, and that's enough for him to give Lidstrom his vote, then that says a lot about the meaning of this award, and should be seen in the same light as the +/-.

I understand Bruce likes to stir the pot and I have my issues with some of what he does/says (even had a little email/on-air exchange last week), but I refuse to think that he is oblivious to the importance of his vote and the meaning of the Norris trophy.

This isn't meant as a slight to Bruce, my concern is more with the general mentality when it comes to voting and the limited knowledge/exposure of who they are voting for.

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03-01-2012, 02:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I think you're on to something there.

"Personally, I think by a country mile he's the best defenceman in the league," Wilson said of Phaneuf. "It's not even close right now. His numbers show that - his plus-minus, we chart scoring chances and his numbers are off the chart there. I think he's comfortable in his own skin[...]and he's healthy."
I'm convinced now he's the best defenceman in the league

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03-01-2012, 02:07 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
This. One thousand times this. There are still preconceived notions about Erik out there, that he's a turnover machine and that he is easily moved off the puck, that he's all offense and no defense. On top of that, he's very young. Votes will likely go to Weber, Chara, Lidstrom whom are all safer choices. Erik will get votes for sure, but if one of our local writers won't vote for him...Karlsson is going to have to be sterling defensively for a while to get the accolades.
You forgot "diver."

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03-01-2012, 02:22 PM
  #44
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To me Karlsson should win easily. But I think reputation plays too much into it. Just look at the main board, at least 75% of fans from other teams still think Karlsson is atrocious defensively.

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03-01-2012, 03:00 PM
  #45
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Players vote on reputation as well. They don't get to see their peers play on a daily basis and don't have enough time to watch as many hockey games as they can. If players were able to vote, the Selke might as well be renamed to the Datsyukian Trophy. I wouldn't hold too much weight on what players think as well.

I have faith that the writers/media are not all twits like Garrioch and will vote based on this season and this season alone. Time will tell..

I wonder what kind of system they use. If there's a points system, I have high hopes for EK to win it this year.

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03-01-2012, 03:07 PM
  #46
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Is there an official line from MacLean or Murray on why Karlsson doesn't play more on the PK.

My own thoughts, is that he plays enough at 25 minutes a game, and is such an offensive threat, that they don't want to run him down with PK time; and I think he would be great on the PK with his quickness and stick skills. But, that's IMHO! Interested in any official line.

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03-01-2012, 03:10 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by L'Aveuglette View Post
Came here to post this. That article is full of holes. He only makes his point by dissecting the very few "less than perfect" aspects of EK's game. How is he borderline average in his own zone? He's rather above average and doesn't seem to make any glaring mistakes leading to goals, well at least no more than other top defensemen in the NHL.

Anyway, gotta agree with Jerk Store et al. Erik won't win the Norris because the voters simply don't want to give it to a 21 year-old. It's sad really.
have you read this herp derp
http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=4388

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03-01-2012, 03:10 PM
  #48
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It's almost silly to address it, seeing as it's only really a factor in terms of determining an individual award.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurial
have you read this herp derp
http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=4388
I love how he has no comparative analysis of any other defenceman's points.

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Old
03-01-2012, 03:11 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Spensar View Post
Is there an official line from MacLean or Murray on why Karlsson doesn't play more on the PK.

My own thoughts, is that he plays enough at 25 minutes a game, and is such an offensive threat, that they don't want to run him down with PK time; and I think he would be great on the PK with his quickness and stick skills. But, that's IMHO! Interested in any official line.
i think Paul Maclean said something in his post game interview after Karlsson was put on the ice in the final minute of the Boston game..

He said guys like Phillips Cowen Kuba Gonchar and Lee were ahead of him as far as PKer's are concerned and Matt Gilroy has had no practice time yet with the team.

If Karlsson can show the boss he's better than Gilroy, I don't see why he wouldn't get more PK time in the future.

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03-01-2012, 03:26 PM
  #50
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Gord Wilson asked a counterpart in Boston whether he had heard any talk of Karlsson for the Norris and he answered not at all. That should answer the question right there.

More often than not the Sens are mostly shown regionally. Very few cities get to watch him and that includes western Canada let alone the States.. They probably only remember last seasons highlight gaffs and his -30. Maybe if he played in Toronto but being in Ottawa there is no way he gets selected by writers. If the Norris winner was selected by GMs and coaches he'd have a chance.

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