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Red Fisher "Habs fail to build for future"

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Old
02-29-2012, 06:46 PM
  #76
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
People would inquire about eller if PG was stupid enough to trade him. Red Fisher isnt simply pointing out anything, as said earlier by agnostic he was piling on and using the trade deadline to justify it. What would you have traded AK for if you dont mind me asking? If you wouldnt have traded him for a second I assume you would re-sign him.
A first at minimum. If you're not getting a first, re-sign him.

We weren't getting a first though... why? Because in the weeks leading up to the deadline (and with us out of the playoffs) we publicly threatened him with a benching and cut his minutes to 4 minutes a game.
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Also you dont trade your best FA signing of the previous off season unless he asks or they are going full rebuild and you tell Cole upfront. It's ridiculous to sign a guy, have him be your best forward night in night out and trade him. Maybe Plekanec was being shopped but people couldnt fit him under the cap, since no top 6 players other than carter where traded. It is easy to sit there and point the finger when you dont think about the logistics of it all (cap hit, term remaining).
Cole has a no trade clause. He wasn't going anywhere without his permission. Ditto with Pleks.

I can't imagine these guys wouldn't waive it considering their age and the state of the team. Cole has to know he's never going to see a cup with us. If we told him "Hey, the Rangers/Canucks/Wings etc... are looking into you would you be willing to waive?" I don't see this guy saying no.

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This is logical. Trading Cole made sense to me, until I realized it sends a horrible message to all other UFAs.
What message would that be? I'm sorry but Edmonton is about to pass us leaving the Columbus Blue Jackets as the only team in the NHL with a worse record. Nobody is going to look at the Habs negatively for dealing off a vet to a contender. Besides, it can't happen without Cole's permission.
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Funny, so many of you young guys generalized about older guys 'getting it', because they've seen the great Habs teams. Well, this older guy 'gets it', and yes, I've seen more Cups in Montreal than Boston fans and their great-grandchildren will see in their combined lifetimes, and you know what... I'm not panicking.

I've also hated the previous years of bad asset management and knee-jerk trades, but we're currently in a very, very different position than those dark years. We are in stockpile mode. Loaded with draft picks for this year and next, plus a young roster that should improve. This is NOT like it was, this is a new mindset. Cap space aplenty, we're in the process of reinventing this franchise right now. The rebuild has started and because of all that inexperience we lost a season. Not because of a lack of talent, but because of a lack of mental maturity. So many blown leads - how did that happen? Did we forget how to play in the third period? Did the other team remember how to play in the last 20 minutes? No and no. Blowing game after game after game after being ahead is a symptom of nervousness and lack of experience. Losing games in the last 25 minutes isn't the mark of a bad team, it's the mark of an immature team.
Is the rebuild underway? I mean, we just dealt away Cammy for a sideways move, tied ourselves to Kaberle and didn't do much at the deadline.

We've got some 2nd round picks. That's not bad but we could be doing so much more.
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So no, I'm not panicking, because along with all the Cups I've seen, I've also seen seasons much worse than this one. But unlike those seasons, we seem to be in the strange position of building instead of patching. Watch our young guys improve next year. That's my old-guy perspective: cautiously optimistic. And if I could generalize about all you young fans, I'd say you think the sky is falling based on the standings. Yeah, we're last. Big deal. Losing is a mentality that builds on itself. So is winning. More of this game is mental than you realize, and that'll become clear sooner than you think.
I don't see much building. I see patchwork. 2nd round picks are nice but that's window dressing. If we're going to rebuild... then DO IT. Get it over with already. We should've done this a million years ago.

Now we find ourselves in last place. We're getting a top pick... unintentionally. We did everything possible to get 8th place but it didn't work. So as a result it's as painful as possible.

Last place doesn't scare me. What scares me is that the club next year will say 'mission accomplished' ala George W. and then we'll just go get more patchwork fixes and declare the rebuild over. We've done this for years and I see it happening again next year.

We need a PLAN. Hopefully we fire PG and get somebody with one.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-29-2012 at 06:52 PM.
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Old
02-29-2012, 07:01 PM
  #77
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I hated this article as I am not one to bash the team that I cheer for. (Growing up in Milwaukee I have seen more than my fair share of awful teams and always stuck by them) I think that there were many more positives to this season than the idiotic Montreal Media will give credit for. For example...

1) Desharnais has proven that he is true NHL talent and he is contributing becoming an up and coming star
2) Pacioretty recovered completely from his devastating injury and returned only to elevate his level of play
3) We have Erik Cole locked up for 4 years and he seems to be defying age with his tenacity and skill
4) P.K. Subban has been brought down to earth from his rookie season and I believe will come out of his sophomore slump better than ever.
5) Carey Price is having a pretty damn solid year considering the defensive capabilities of this team right now
6) Josh Gorges was locked up for a long time and he is the type of defenseman that our young guys need to learn from.
7) Our prospect pool is deep, and now that our lines our thin, the young guns will get more ice time, develop chemistry and at least one of them will become an All-Star within a few years.

Red Fisher is an idiot for saying the Canadiens haven't built for the future, our prospect pool is so deep and talented that we are bound to produce a superstar before too long. Scouts can't predict how a player will do in the NHL, and there is way too much attention on what these guys are saying. Be patient and the team we have all been waiting for will come out of the ashes.

Look at Subban, Price, Pacioretty, and Desharnais and tell me our farm system isn't producing quality talent. Heck, this is the Montreal Canadiens we're talking about! This isn't the first bad season in history and it sure as heck won't be the last, but there are way too many people that are way too critical of this team.

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Old
02-29-2012, 07:12 PM
  #78
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Because scouts aren't in our stands and watching him under a microscope during his worst stretch as Hab? If a player is a 20 goal a year player for 5 seasons and then on a contract year he goes off for 40...does he get a raise based on the 20 goals or the 40 he just scored? How did Cammalleri get 6 million dollars? Because he scored 39 the year before. Why did Gomez get 7 million +? Because he was a 70-80 point player. This isn't rocket science. The Habs were considered as a potential seller for a while and as a result we had more outside scouts watching our players with a keen eye trying to see if there's anything they like. They see Kostitsyn and go..."okay he's a 20 goal scorer that hits, but why is he sucking so bad now? why does he only have 1 point in 20 games? why is he only playing 10 minutes? i thought he was on their successful powerplay units? has he lost his accurate wrist shot? Does he not care anymore? does he want to go to the khl? is he not a team player? why is the coach calling him out in front of the media" and just like that a now consistent hard hitting 20 goal scorer is relegated to a 4th line player and worth a mere second in HOPES that he can find his previous goal scoring form. They used that assessment to FLEECE Mr.Gauthier while knowing for a fact that Montreal is a terrible environment for goal scorers to score goals. "Hey pierre, that kostitsyn kid, we are interested in him...he only has 1 point in 20 games so we'll do you a favor and give you a 2nd round pick for him" How many 2nd round picks in the LEAGUE within the past 5 drafts have turned into 20 goal scorers a year. Maybe 3-4? And you're saying that's worth it? Now tell me, how does Dustin Penner get 2 first round picks last year? Do you think the oilers buried him with scrubs on the 4th line?

Now this is how the coach of one of the top teams in the league viewed the trade:

"When we got Sergei, I heard nothing but bad things about Sergei — that he couldn’t do this, he couldn’t do that, he couldn’t do this, he’s not going to help you, all those types of things,” Coach Barry Trotz said. “They’re wrong, we’re right — Sergei is one of the best things. We virtually gave up nothing and got our first-line left-winger. … He’s a good player. I expect the same thing of Andrei. I know he’s a terrific talent, and he can play.”

Essentially you're saying you know more than Barry Trotz, well done keyboard hater! They used our idiotic burial of Kostitsyn's value to get him for table scraps. Who is going to replace our 20-25 goals that kosty scored? Aaron freaking Palushaj?
WTF are you talking about?

What exactly did Trotz say that has to do with what I said? He clearly said that Andrei is a terrific talent and can play. You really think if he played more Trotz's opinion would change? He already KNEW the kind of player Andrei was because of the large sample size. If you don't know the kind of player Andrei is after 5 years in the league you should not be a scout.

Also, how many goals does he have this year? 12. Please, stop the 20-25 goals ******** because it is not true.

His 12 goals will be replaced quite easily actually. The way some of you are crying you'd think we traded Beliveau.

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02-29-2012, 07:18 PM
  #79
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We haven't had a star of Beliveau's magnitude since the late 70's.

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02-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #80
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We haven't had a star of Beliveau's magnitude since the late 70's.
huh.................... What about Guy Lafleur ?.................

oh you mean after Beliveau (early 70's) and Lafleur (late 70's)?

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02-29-2012, 07:22 PM
  #81
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WTF are you talking about?

What exactly did Trotz say that has to do with what I said? He clearly said that Andrei is a terrific talent and can play. You really think if he played more Trotz's opinion would change? He already KNEW the kind of player Andrei was because of the large sample size. If you don't know the kind of player Andrei is after 5 years in the league you should not be a scout.

Also, how many goals does he have this year? 12. Please, stop the 20-25 goals ******** because it is not true.

His 12 goals will be replaced quite easily actually. The way some of you are crying you'd think we traded Beliveau.
yeah. That's it. And nothing more.

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02-29-2012, 07:24 PM
  #82
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huh.................... What about Guy Lafleur ?.................

oh you mean after Beliveau (early 70's) and Lafleur (late 70's)?
Exactly, Big Jean retired after the 71 cup, and the flower was in his prime in 77- 78-79.

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02-29-2012, 07:43 PM
  #83
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yeah. That's it. And nothing more.
I don't think anyone here would disagree that he's very talented. Talent and potential can only take you so far.

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02-29-2012, 09:08 PM
  #84
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Because scouts aren't in our stands and watching him under a microscope during his worst stretch as Hab? If a player is a 20 goal a year player for 5 seasons and then on a contract year he goes off for 40...does he get a raise based on the 20 goals or the 40 he just scored? How did Cammalleri get 6 million dollars? Because he scored 39 the year before. Why did Gomez get 7 million +? Because he was a 70-80 point player. This isn't rocket science. The Habs were considered as a potential seller for a while and as a result we had more outside scouts watching our players with a keen eye trying to see if there's anything they like. They see Kostitsyn and go..."okay he's a 20 goal scorer that hits, but why is he sucking so bad now? why does he only have 1 point in 20 games? why is he only playing 10 minutes? i thought he was on their successful powerplay units? has he lost his accurate wrist shot? Does he not care anymore? does he want to go to the khl? is he not a team player? why is the coach calling him out in front of the media" and just like that a now consistent hard hitting 20 goal scorer is relegated to a 4th line player and worth a mere second in HOPES that he can find his previous goal scoring form. They used that assessment to FLEECE Mr.Gauthier while knowing for a fact that Montreal is a terrible environment for goal scorers to score goals. "Hey pierre, that kostitsyn kid, we are interested in him...he only has 1 point in 20 games so we'll do you a favor and give you a 2nd round pick for him" How many 2nd round picks in the LEAGUE within the past 5 drafts have turned into 20 goal scorers a year. Maybe 3-4? And you're saying that's worth it? Now tell me, how does Dustin Penner get 2 first round picks last year? Do you think the oilers buried him with scrubs on the 4th line?

Now this is how the coach of one of the top teams in the league viewed the trade:

"When we got Sergei, I heard nothing but bad things about Sergei — that he couldn’t do this, he couldn’t do that, he couldn’t do this, he’s not going to help you, all those types of things,” Coach Barry Trotz said. “They’re wrong, we’re right — Sergei is one of the best things. We virtually gave up nothing and got our first-line left-winger. … He’s a good player. I expect the same thing of Andrei. I know he’s a terrific talent, and he can play.”

Essentially you're saying you know more than Barry Trotz, well done keyboard hater! They used our idiotic burial of Kostitsyn's value to get him for table scraps. Who is going to replace our 20-25 goals that kosty scored? Aaron freaking Palushaj?
As a person who fell hook-line-sinker for the Ribeiro punk stories I am pleased to say I straightened my life out and now totally ignore the cancer-in-the-room narratives. Fool me once...

Invariably in any work setting there are people that don't get along perfectly, the media in Montreal try to get the scoop on these dynamics and distort and amplify them. It seems management, living in the image conscience years of its past , gets embarassed by public suggestions that they've lost control and overreact.

The organization absolutely has to learn to manage these situations if it wants to prevent dealing players in a position of weakness.

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Old
02-29-2012, 09:25 PM
  #85
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If you're in your 30's 40's+ the Habs as they are right now are a pathetic excuse of an organization. You have to understand that these people saw great teams, great players, great coaches, cups, etc....so they have a right to be pissed/grumpy.

It's the younger crowd who were not around for the glory years and have nothing to compare the current team to that don't seem to think things are that dire.

The franchise is irrelevant and almost embarassing.
Not directing this at you, just using it as general representation of a counterpoint.

I get that lots of the older generation are pissed. Hell I'm 28 and I'm pissed cuz I was alive for two Cups and basically we saw the darkest of days when I was a teenager. Then came the exciting return to the playoffs and some memorable moments, but yes, I too want a CUP, now!!! And I want us to return to glory in this league.

Thing is, the NHL is not the same as it was back then. No 3 point games, didn't have 30 teams with such little parity, pretty sure we had some advantages that have been equalized over the years. Not to mention to ever present politicization of this team.

We do have a bright future and I think as soon as next year. Previously, the top picks in the draft would help but not always turn a franchise right around. Not saying this will surely happen, but if we draft high this year and make a few tweaks and the guys are healthy, we have a team that is definitely in contention with the top teams in the NHL. We need the right calibration, but it's not that far gone. Sometimes you need to endure the pain before it gets really better. A lot of Cup teams have done so but have had the luxury of their fans not caring when they sucked that bad (cept Toronto...tee hee). We'll turn it around and tbh, maybe we just needed this to happen to really take it to the next level. We've made incremental improvements since those dark days and I still have great moments of the contemporary Habs.

I'm not mad. Not anymore. Just finish out the season as we should (no better or worse than we've been) and get our chance to finally draft a guy who can turn this franchise around up FRONT.

We don't need years of tanking. just this one.

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02-29-2012, 10:20 PM
  #86
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[...] We do have guys we could've traded though. Pleks, Cole... those guys would've gotten some good returns. Why didn't we explore this avenue? [...]
we've been through this before: im somewhat against trading cole and not against trading plekanec. not trading plekanec means the team now has chosen to try to contend as soon as next season.

we'll see though... gauthier will be canned at the end of the season (hope to god...) and if whoever takes over gets complete control over future plans, then we may see plekanec traded at the deadline for a team just outside the playoffs for a 10-15 first + good/decent prospect.

of course that means missing the playoffs next year or next two years so like i said, depends on the long term vision - if any...

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02-29-2012, 10:23 PM
  #87
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Who is this Fisher guy and what does he know?

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02-29-2012, 11:18 PM
  #88
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Not directing this at you, just using it as general representation of a counterpoint.

I get that lots of the older generation are pissed. Hell I'm 28 and I'm pissed cuz I was alive for two Cups and basically we saw the darkest of days when I was a teenager. Then came the exciting return to the playoffs and some memorable moments, but yes, I too want a CUP, now!!! And I want us to return to glory in this league.

Thing is, the NHL is not the same as it was back then. No 3 point games, didn't have 30 teams with such little parity, pretty sure we had some advantages that have been equalized over the years. Not to mention to ever present politicization of this team.

We do have a bright future and I think as soon as next year. Previously, the top picks in the draft would help but not always turn a franchise right around. Not saying this will surely happen, but if we draft high this year and make a few tweaks and the guys are healthy, we have a team that is definitely in contention with the top teams in the NHL. We need the right calibration, but it's not that far gone. Sometimes you need to endure the pain before it gets really better. A lot of Cup teams have done so but have had the luxury of their fans not caring when they sucked that bad (cept Toronto...tee hee). We'll turn it around and tbh, maybe we just needed this to happen to really take it to the next level. We've made incremental improvements since those dark days and I still have great moments of the contemporary Habs.

I'm not mad. Not anymore. Just finish out the season as we should (no better or worse than we've been) and get our chance to finally draft a guy who can turn this franchise around up FRONT.

We don't need years of tanking. just this one.
That's fine and all. But I think this year has opened a lot of peoples eyes on how many assets we squandered. There is no franchise that has squandered this many assets in a 5 year span. And if the same idiots are in charge next year, who's to say the "talent" and the "bright future" that we have won't be squandered?

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02-29-2012, 11:25 PM
  #89
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What message would that be? I'm sorry but Edmonton is about to pass us leaving the Columbus Blue Jackets as the only team in the NHL with a worse record. Nobody is going to look at the Habs negatively for dealing off a vet to a contender. Besides, it can't happen without Cole's permission.
Look, there's nothing we can do at the moment about the standings. But we can control how we treat the players in the organization. Act with class, you appear classy; show loyalty and you're shown loyalty. Assuming we have any chance of landing a real UFA, it WON'T happen if we toss the last UFA overboard. This ain't a fantasy league. Players choose a city to play in based on a lot of factors, one of which is being there long enough to unpack.

Despite all the fan whining, Montreal's got a good rep. It's a perennial playoff team having an atypically bad year. We really have to remember that this year is atypical for us. Bubble team or not, there's a world of difference between Montreal and perennial bottom-feeders. We may be wallowing with them this year; doesn't mean we have to act like them.

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Is the rebuild underway? I mean, we just dealt away Cammy for a sideways move, tied ourselves to Kaberle and didn't do much at the deadline.
The timing of Cammy's trade was questionable, but we freed up some cash, got a 2nd rounder, and have a potentially solid 3rd line scoring forward. Not a sideways step; more like a small step forward, IMO. Kaberle is harder to peg and, honestly, my opinion keeps changing so I'll shut up about him for now.

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We've got some 2nd round picks. That's not bad but we could be doing so much more.
"So much more" always comes down to one pivotal player: Plekanec. You say trade him, I say keep him. But even if we trade him, what do you honestly think we'll get in return? Do you think Columbus, Edmonton, Carolina, whoever, will give up their high draft picks for anyone on our team? We wouldn't give up our pick for Getzlaf, why would any team give up their high pick for Pleks? A package then? Do we keep adding players to the deal until some team gives us their pick? Is that the only course of action you're looking for?

Unless you really don't like the young guys we have, wouldn't you agree they're more likely to improve than get worse? Again, we have a young team that's going to remain young with a bunch of good picks coming up soon from Hamilton and through the draft. Our two oldest key players are Gionta and Cole. The rest have a few years of prime hockey left, or haven't even reached their prime. What else could we be doing?

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I don't see much building. I see patchwork. 2nd round picks are nice but that's window dressing. If we're going to rebuild... then DO IT. Get it over with already. We should've done this a million years ago.
Easy to say in retrospect. One year ago we were headed towards a solid 6th place finish, after making it to the ECF the year before. Sure, we weren't elite, but we were headed up in the standings and seemingly in the right direction with a bunch of new guys developing with our vets. Everyone has their opinion now, but 300 days ago we were considered a good team. The big mistake was leaving our defense defenseless in the off season and banking it all on Markov and a couple of rookies. That shortsightedness killed our season, IMO, but it exposed the weaknesses, namely: without a tight defensive system, we were too small and too inexperienced. That reality came crashing down on us and we've spent this calendar year addressing it. We've gotten bigger, we're playing a more offensive style and our youth is gaining experience. Now they need playing time and a coach.

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Last place doesn't scare me. What scares me is that the club next year will say 'mission accomplished' ala George W. and then we'll just go get more patchwork fixes and declare the rebuild over. We've done this for years and I see it happening again next year.

We need a PLAN. Hopefully we fire PG and get somebody with one.
I think you're wrong, but I obviously can't prove it until next season. I see a plan to dump salaries, shed older guys, play young players and stock up on picks. I'll bet they're even looking to trade for higher picks. I might be an idiot for being so optimistic, but I think they've realized their past mistakes and have focused on the future instead of the present.

Hey, I could be totally off. If they use their cash to sign a 32-year-old UFA, if they keep Gomez on the books, if they fill their cap space with a mediocre 3rd line forward or 6th defenseman, then I'll admit they just don't get it and I'll catch up on movies instead of watch hockey.

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03-01-2012, 09:00 AM
  #90
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Look, there's nothing we can do at the moment about the standings. But we can control how we treat the players in the organization. Act with class, you appear classy; show loyalty and you're shown loyalty. Assuming we have any chance of landing a real UFA, it WON'T happen if we toss the last UFA overboard. This ain't a fantasy league. Players choose a city to play in based on a lot of factors, one of which is being there long enough to unpack.
First, I don't see anything unclassy about trading anyone when you're in last place. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Again, we'd need Cole's permission to do this.

Secondly, we don't attract the best UFAs anyway. We attract the 2nd tier UFAs because we overpay. No elite UFA in his right mind is going to sign here if he wants to win a cup.
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Despite all the fan whining, Montreal's got a good rep. It's a perennial playoff team having an atypically bad year. We really have to remember that this year is atypical for us. Bubble team or not, there's a world of difference between Montreal and perennial bottom-feeders. We may be wallowing with them this year; doesn't mean we have to act like them.
How do you know that this isn't just the start of us being bottomfeeders for a couple of years? I know we're all sitting here saying that this is atypical and we'll be back next year... but what if we aren't? There's a very real possibility that we could wallow outside the playoffs for a few years. It's not that big a stretch.

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The timing of Cammy's trade was questionable, but we freed up some cash, got a 2nd rounder, and have a potentially solid 3rd line scoring forward. Not a sideways step; more like a small step forward, IMO. Kaberle is harder to peg and, honestly, my opinion keeps changing so I'll shut up about him for now.
There's no way we don't get at least a 1st rounder for Cammy. We may have had to take some salary back (we probably would) but we could've gotten a first for sure. THAT would be a sign of rebuilding. But that's not what we did. We went out and we got Bourque. I don't see how that's anything but a sideways move. The 2nd is nice but it's window dressing.
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"So much more" always comes down to one pivotal player: Plekanec. You say trade him, I say keep him. But even if we trade him, what do you honestly think we'll get in return? Do you think Columbus, Edmonton, Carolina, whoever, will give up their high draft picks for anyone on our team? We wouldn't give up our pick for Getzlaf, why would any team give up their high pick for Pleks? A package then? Do we keep adding players to the deal until some team gives us their pick? Is that the only course of action you're looking for?
I think a lot of teams were hard up for a center. I think Washington would've paid dearly for Plekanec in the absence of Backstrom and they hold Colorado's pick. The Avalanche are making a late season run and may make the playoffs, even still though it's a mid 1st round pick.

And you're right it does come down to a pivotal player. You have to give quality to get it back. We never do this and we never rebuild. Cammy for Bourque is just one example. And... here we are today.

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Unless you really don't like the young guys we have, wouldn't you agree they're more likely to improve than get worse? Again, we have a young team that's going to remain young with a bunch of good picks coming up soon from Hamilton and through the draft. Our two oldest key players are Gionta and Cole. The rest have a few years of prime hockey left, or haven't even reached their prime. What else could we be doing?
We could be doing a lot more.
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Easy to say in retrospect. One year ago we were headed towards a solid 6th place finish, after making it to the ECF the year before. Sure, we weren't elite, but we were headed up in the standings and seemingly in the right direction with a bunch of new guys developing with our vets. Everyone has their opinion now, but 300 days ago we were considered a good team. The big mistake was leaving our defense defenseless in the off season and banking it all on Markov and a couple of rookies. That shortsightedness killed our season, IMO, but it exposed the weaknesses, namely: without a tight defensive system, we were too small and too inexperienced. That reality came crashing down on us and we've spent this calendar year addressing it. We've gotten bigger, we're playing a more offensive style and our youth is gaining experience. Now they need playing time and a coach.
Except I'm not saying it in retrospect. Retrospect only reinforces my position. I've been calling for a rebuild for years.

Moreover, we're in the same position now as we've been in the past. Not a contending team and an opportunity to rebuild. We didn't do it before and it hurt us. So I'm not sure why we're going to take the same path again (and I believe we will go for more quick fixes this summer.)
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I think you're wrong, but I obviously can't prove it until next season. I see a plan to dump salaries, shed older guys, play young players and stock up on picks. I'll bet they're even looking to trade for higher picks. I might be an idiot for being so optimistic, but I think they've realized their past mistakes and have focused on the future instead of the present.

Hey, I could be totally off. If they use their cash to sign a 32-year-old UFA, if they keep Gomez on the books, if they fill their cap space with a mediocre 3rd line forward or 6th defenseman, then I'll admit they just don't get it and I'll catch up on movies instead of watch hockey.
I hope I'm wrong. I hope we don't repeat the errors of the past. But I've watched this movie many times before and I know how it ends.

If we get a new GM then maybe it will be different. Plus we (hopefully) land a top pick, that helps too. We're not in terrible shape going forward as we do have a lot to build with, it's just that we need to pick a direction. We've been trying to build and stay competitive at the same time and it hasn't worked. We get medicore results on both ends of the ledger that way.

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03-01-2012, 09:55 AM
  #91
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Personally I think this season COULD be a great season for this franchise, hear me out before you bash..

With no clear direction for the future, numerous moves that have been sideways or steps backwards, the handling of letting coaches etc...

IF Mr.Molson is watching what's happening and taking notes, makes the right moves in the off season solidifying and stabilizing the front office and tells this team that it's either passion or the door. This franchise will regain whatever respect was lost during the past decade, but this ALL depends on what Mr.Molson's "view" of the future is.

Last in the East, pretty much all but guaranteed a high lottery pick, intern head coach, "leaders" out with long term injuries (Markov & Gionta) etc... It's a perfect storm to jump start this organization back to greatness. We have a solid core with (in my eyes) Price, Subban, Gorges, Emelin, Pacioretty, Eller, White) sidenote: I have White as part of my core because I'm looking at the whole picture including 4th liners (a good 4th line is something this team has lacked for too long IMO). Younger guys who could become good bottom 6ers (no, didn't forget the 9 for 69 lol) LeBlanc, Geoffrion. So 9 out of 19 starting jobs, then there's still Cole, Plekanec, Desharnais, Moen*, Darche*, Kaberle#, Bourque, Gomez¤.. *= if resigned, #= if not traded, ¤= if not sent down.

As always, a Big strong TRUE #1 C is our biggest need as it has been forever. Grigorenko could fill that need but let's make him earn the key to city please. I also believe that we need to start drafting and developing our own strong or power forwards, but not entirely pulling away from skill but regardless how we draft one thing is certain, we need to find players with higher compete levels and bring more energy to their game (just more then alittle tired of floaters).

The present sucks but the future is bright, very bright IF and that's a huge IF Molson stops the bleeding FAST and sets a winning tone from the top down. We have the pieces to compete, 1 1st (lottery pick) and 2 2nds this year with our 1st and THREE 2nds next year in a "deep(as of now lol)" draft. This year and next year are HUGE draft years for us and we need someone guiding this ship with a clear and precise view for the future. If the view is there, we will contend shortly, if the view is scew, we are forced!

I think I'm done, sorry to rant.. Kinda lol

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03-01-2012, 09:25 PM
  #92
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Sorry double post

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03-01-2012, 09:27 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody's expecting a dynasty. How old are you man? Are you old enough to remember those clubs of the 80s? They were post dynasty clubs that were tough to play against. When you stepped into the Forum it was OUR house. That feeling just doesn't exist anymore. Ribeiro scores and does a little shuffle and it's all a big joke. That just doesn't happen with the clubs we used to have.

Ribeiro would've been pounded into dust, if not by fists then by hits every time he got near the boards. That club would've made it their personal mission to destroy the Stars on that night. There was a feeling of character on those clubs and while we weren't super highly skilled, we had enough that we could score. The club knew how to win and it was respected across the league. That's just long gone now.

Of course you'll try to paint it as Dynasty or Bust... nobody is expecting us to go get Lafleur, Dryden and co. But we can do a hell of a lot better than we have. You can apologize for management all you want but they've done a crap job for a decade and a half. And before you come back with the pathetic... 'but we made it to the Conference finals once and had one season where we were in 1st place'... just save it. There is nothing to crow about when you have one season that sticks out like a sore thumb and a playoff run where we shouldn't have been in the playoffs in the first place.

Why the hell was he doing looking for a blueliner... IN SEPTEMBER??????

Exactly, it was a desperate move. And why was it desperate? Because the guy was an idiot and couldn't see that Markov was an injury risk. So... he waits until we find out that Markov is very predictably hurt and then desperately goes out on a last minute a knee jerk reactive panic search and gives a guy without a freakin' job on the eve of the season a raise to come here.

Then... he compounds this stupidity with another reactive panic move and ties us to TK even though we're already looking like we're going to miss the playoffs.

Dumb.


Dude... we're in last place. We ARE losers. And nobody wanted our players at the deadline. That's just plain true. We had guys we wanted to sell but they're a bunch of losers so nobody wanted them. Seriously... who wants Campioli, Gomez or Kaberle? Nobody.


There is wishful thinking not a solid foundation. We have three players that we can count on for the future and that's it. We're not one player away man. We have some decent prospects but we're not the Oilers. And we just placed 28th in HF... are they a bunch of 'haters' too? Seriously man open your eyes. We've got some okay prospects but so does every other team out there.

You need to go back and read this article again with an open mind. Yes, it's a rant but there's a lot more truth to it than you're willing to admit.
You summed up perfectly what's been going on here for the last 15 years. Could not agree with you more

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03-02-2012, 07:07 AM
  #94
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Maybe the most major flaw in the roster was exposed again last night.

The blueline at present cannot box out the front of the net.

Kassian scores an avg of two goals a year in the AHL and had no NHL points before last night. Easy pickings for him last night against the Habs, he should have had more then two goals. And the Heatley goal was brutal, looked like a bullfighters reunion in front of the net.

Probably the smallest blueline in the league will need to get alot bigger if they are to get back to the playoffs, in my opinion.

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03-02-2012, 08:37 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
If you're in your 30's 40's+ the Habs as they are right now are a pathetic excuse of an organization. You have to understand that these people saw great teams, great players, great coaches, cups, etc....so they have a right to be pissed/grumpy.

It's the younger crowd who were not around for the glory years and have nothing to compare the current team to that don't seem to think things are that dire.

The franchise is irrelevant and almost embarassing.
As bad as this season has been that is the most painful.


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Last place doesn't scare me. What scares me is that the club next year will say 'mission accomplished' ala George W. and then we'll just go get more patchwork fixes and declare the rebuild over. We've done this for years and I see it happening again next year.

We need a PLAN. Hopefully we fire PG and get somebody with one.
I'm afraid that even a new GM will try the same thing,the organization just won't admit a rebuild is necessary.


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Who is this Fisher guy and what does he know?

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03-02-2012, 08:41 AM
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Red Fisher fails to do ANY research. He'll be eating crow within two seasons with the crop we harvest from the farm, I tell ya Hwhat.

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03-02-2012, 10:39 AM
  #97
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I see the issue being that the Canadiens were expected to build on their season last year. The slew of misfortune that has hit this team this year has been a little over the top.
Markov, then Gill & Spacek & Campoli relatively early. The 1-6-1 start... Pearn being fired... Markov reinjury debacle. Kaberle deal, Cammalleri comments, Cammalleri trade midgame in a game vs Boston... Martin firing, french debate... Gionta Injury, Gomez injury

Then you have the tough season candidates... (Gomez, Gionta, Kaberle, Weber, Bourque, Gill, Subban, Price (in shootouts), Markov, White's injury)

But there are and were bright spots as well. (Cole-DD-Patch, Emelin & Diaz, Subban's all-around play, Gorges, Price's reg. game play, White, Leblanc, Geoffrion addition, Eller's progression from last year,Moen)
The point being, some of the team's solid longer terms are sorted out already. Either way you put it, Cole & Pacioretty look like theyre both going to break 30 this year, DD is an excellent puck feeder, the best since Ribeiro was here. Emelin, Diaz, Subban & Gorges have been definately ok here throughout the season on D. Price is still my top choice for goaltender, there's not many others Id even consider in comparison tbh. I like the potential of Eller-Geoffrion-Leblanc possibly playing together starting out in a 3rd line role. White I love as a fourth liner, Moen sticking with him...

For next year, I could easily see Markov returning being a huge add, Kaberle returning to his form (at least somewhat)... Combined, they could hit an 80 + assist, and 100 pt combined output. That'll bring better output from our transitional game.

Furthermore, If Bourque & Gionta get back to their reg selves next year, that's another potential 50-60 goal winger combination.

What we COULD improve on, is the fact that while DD & Pleks bring different games, They are both suitable for 2nd liner duties.
Eller is turning in to a damn fine third line center. We still have auditions for a permanent fourth line center. It's safe to say none of the three listed above, should ever fill that position.
Plekanec plays a solid hard working game, and is also one hell of a hockey player. He's a good answer for a team working to make the playoffs as a #1 guy... but on a contender (ideally) he'd be working out of a # 2 role. The quote he had earlier this week about wearing this jersey... That is respect. But in all honesty, if we are selecting in a top 3-4 spot in the draft this year, We would have a top end center in Montreal (in development, but here nonetheless). Furthermore, a guy drafted that high would also hold a high possibility of being inserted to the line up rather fast.

Having DD-Pleks-Eller would be holding too many centers at that point. Whomever we draft in that high of a position, if it is a center, would essentially, render one of these 3 guys available.

I think we are in a situation, where the RIGHT retool could put us in the right place.

My opinion is it would be a clear cut top center. Do you need it to win it all? No...

But that, and a tough defenceman to mix in to our 6 guys, would make us a stellar team as soon as next year.
It could go the other way, sure... But I personally cant wait to see Markov return as it should at least give an idea if the Kaberle/Markov mix will add an edge to our transitional game.

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03-02-2012, 10:45 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
I see the issue being that the Canadiens were expected to build on their season last year. The slew of misfortune that has hit this team this year has been a little over the top.
Markov, then Gill & Spacek & Campoli relatively early. The 1-6-1 start... Pearn being fired... Markov reinjury debacle. Kaberle deal, Cammalleri comments, Cammalleri trade midgame in a game vs Boston... Martin firing, french debate... Gionta Injury, Gomez injury

Then you have the tough season candidates... (Gomez, Gionta, Kaberle, Weber, Bourque, Gill, Subban, Price (in shootouts), Markov, White's injury)

But there are and were bright spots as well. (Cole-DD-Patch, Emelin & Diaz, Subban's all-around play, Gorges, Price's reg. game play, White, Leblanc, Geoffrion addition, Eller's progression from last year,Moen)
The point being, some of the team's solid longer terms are sorted out already. Either way you put it, Cole & Pacioretty look like theyre both going to break 30 this year, DD is an excellent puck feeder, the best since Ribeiro was here. Emelin, Diaz, Subban & Gorges have been definately ok here throughout the season on D. Price is still my top choice for goaltender, there's not many others Id even consider in comparison tbh. I like the potential of Eller-Geoffrion-Leblanc possibly playing together starting out in a 3rd line role. White I love as a fourth liner, Moen sticking with him...

For next year, I could easily see Markov returning being a huge add, Kaberle returning to his form (at least somewhat)... Combined, they could hit an 80 + assist, and 100 pt combined output. That'll bring better output from our transitional game.

Furthermore, If Bourque & Gionta get back to their reg selves next year, that's another potential 50-60 goal winger combination.

What we COULD improve on, is the fact that while DD & Pleks bring different games, They are both suitable for 2nd liner duties.
Eller is turning in to a damn fine third line center. We still have auditions for a permanent fourth line center. It's safe to say none of the three listed above, should ever fill that position.
Plekanec plays a solid hard working game, and is also one hell of a hockey player. He's a good answer for a team working to make the playoffs as a #1 guy... but on a contender (ideally) he'd be working out of a # 2 role. The quote he had earlier this week about wearing this jersey... That is respect. But in all honesty, if we are selecting in a top 3-4 spot in the draft this year, We would have a top end center in Montreal (in development, but here nonetheless). Furthermore, a guy drafted that high would also hold a high possibility of being inserted to the line up rather fast.

Having DD-Pleks-Eller would be holding too many centers at that point. Whomever we draft in that high of a position, if it is a center, would essentially, render one of these 3 guys available.

I think we are in a situation, where the RIGHT retool could put us in the right place.

My opinion is it would be a clear cut top center. Do you need it to win it all? No...

But that, and a tough defenceman to mix in to our 6 guys, would make us a stellar team as soon as next year.
It could go the other way, sure... But I personally cant wait to see Markov return as it should at least give an idea if the Kaberle/Markov mix will add an edge to our transitional game.
You're asking for a lot to go right.

I don't see how Kaberle is anything but what he is right now... PP specialist, defensive liability. And if we draft a center this year, that player probably won't be in our lineup next year if we're smart.

Re-tooling is what we always do and I don't think it makes sense to retool when you're not a contender to begin with. We're usually an 8th place team that retools to get 8th. We're now a 28th place team and retooling isn't going to do much except maybe get us back into the 8th spot again.

Everything could go right... Bourque & Kaberle suddenly remember how to play hockey again, Markov stays healthy, everyone has a great year... but I don't see all of that happening do you?

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03-02-2012, 11:06 AM
  #99
Marchy79
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You're asking for a lot to go right.

I don't see how Kaberle is anything but what he is right now... PP specialist, defensive liability. And if we draft a center this year, that player probably won't be in our lineup next year if we're smart.

Re-tooling is what we always do and I don't think it makes sense to retool when you're not a contender to begin with. We're usually an 8th place team that retools to get 8th. We're now a 28th place team and retooling isn't going to do much except maybe get us back into the 8th spot again.

Everything could go right... Bourque & Kaberle suddenly remember how to play hockey again, Markov stays healthy, everyone has a great year... but I don't see all of that happening do you?
Well, Kaberle I see as being absolutely capable of returning to his 40 assist mark next year. He's at that level currently as a Canadien had he of played the season here. He's also suffering from the craptacular season we are amassing here. Success here, would put a different spin on Kaberle (similar to his hey day in TO). Yes, he has to get sheltered some, but he is a smart player, and he does contribute offensively. In fact, a stat for some to consider... Only him, Subban and Weber are the only positive goal differential defencemen we are icing right now. I believe that will be improved on next year.

Bourque is more of a risk... But we know that this year is a play out of his Calgary role. Whatever caused him to be disollusioned out there, COULD work out of his system come next season. He is on pace for 20 for sure, in a poor season... Which is capable for a top 6 role. (Not stellar). Either way, He's got one of either Cole or Patches ahead of him in a depth role... So he can contribute his 20 +, and add to the other guys 30 + for some nice top 6 winger scoring ability. Add to that, that he should be pressured by a rising Geoffrion, who may not pop 20... But IMO will play well. If he doesnt work out, IMO we'll find a taker for sure.

Markov, with all the precaution, and just my overall feeling about the scenario, Should come back to a healthy player. Time can only tell, but they are taking every precaution, and we should get at least a viewing as to how capable he is in these last games... I know I have heard that it's still his goal to get in some games this season. I guess some people can be apprehensive... But it's a fall down 7 times, get up 8 situation. We simply wont know until it plays out. If he comes back in a full time scenario for next season... We're getting our best player back. That will make an impact to our team tremendously.

Gionta, IMO was just derailed with a bad injury. IMO he'll come back with another honest 25 g season next year.

Injuries are going to happen for sure... The sad part is, we have a lot of parts that could help the senario, they just simply were not as ready as they Should have been. Weber, Pulashaj, Engqvist, all kind of dropped the ball when they could have run with it. Engqvist had the 4th line C role out of training camp... He hasnt really been effective at this level (yet). He's continously showing good moxy in Hamilton however... If we do keep Nokelainen... It's going to be an interesting 4th line battle come training camp (Dumont, who was impressie last year, Nattinen turning it on now, + summer of development, Engqvist with further development, all RH Centers).

Overall depth, is not a glaring concern, as it is say in Edmonton... our problem this year, was a lack of the add'l gamechanger. Markov would have been one good addition to be sure... Add to that a potential bluechip center... & we're back in business, potentially better than ever.


Last edited by Marchy79: 03-02-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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03-02-2012, 09:28 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
Well, Kaberle I see as being absolutely capable of returning to his 40 assist mark next year. He's at that level currently as a Canadien had he of played the season here. He's also suffering from the craptacular season we are amassing here. Success here, would put a different spin on Kaberle (similar to his hey day in TO). Yes, he has to get sheltered some, but he is a smart player, and he does contribute offensively. In fact, a stat for some to consider... Only him, Subban and Weber are the only positive goal differential defencemen we are icing right now. I believe that will be improved on next year.

Bourque is more of a risk... But we know that this year is a play out of his Calgary role. Whatever caused him to be disollusioned out there, COULD work out of his system come next season. He is on pace for 20 for sure, in a poor season... Which is capable for a top 6 role. (Not stellar). Either way, He's got one of either Cole or Patches ahead of him in a depth role... So he can contribute his 20 +, and add to the other guys 30 + for some nice top 6 winger scoring ability. Add to that, that he should be pressured by a rising Geoffrion, who may not pop 20... But IMO will play well. If he doesnt work out, IMO we'll find a taker for sure.

Markov, with all the precaution, and just my overall feeling about the scenario, Should come back to a healthy player. Time can only tell, but they are taking every precaution, and we should get at least a viewing as to how capable he is in these last games... I know I have heard that it's still his goal to get in some games this season. I guess some people can be apprehensive... But it's a fall down 7 times, get up 8 situation. We simply wont know until it plays out. If he comes back in a full time scenario for next season... We're getting our best player back. That will make an impact to our team tremendously.

Gionta, IMO was just derailed with a bad injury. IMO he'll come back with another honest 25 g season next year.

Injuries are going to happen for sure... The sad part is, we have a lot of parts that could help the senario, they just simply were not as ready as they Should have been. Weber, Pulashaj, Engqvist, all kind of dropped the ball when they could have run with it. Engqvist had the 4th line C role out of training camp... He hasnt really been effective at this level (yet). He's continously showing good moxy in Hamilton however... If we do keep Nokelainen... It's going to be an interesting 4th line battle come training camp (Dumont, who was impressie last year, Nattinen turning it on now, + summer of development, Engqvist with further development, all RH Centers).

Overall depth, is not a glaring concern, as it is say in Edmonton... our problem this year, was a lack of the add'l gamechanger. Markov would have been one good addition to be sure... Add to that a potential bluechip center... & we're back in business, potentially better than ever.
So... Kaberle, Bourque, Markov and Gionta are all going to come back, play better and be healthy?

Like I said, a lot has to go right for us to have a great season.

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