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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 3.0

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:19 PM
  #1026
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Originally Posted by newtown33 View Post
Good draft to be in the top7, bad draft to be in the top 3. Hard to know which team will have the better player between 2-7.
I agree, but we're a win away from passing the Isles and the Canes which would leave us picking 5th. IMO this is a great draft to be picking 5th, as we'd likely have our choice between Galchenyuk and Forsberg.

That said, the top 3 of Yakupov, Murray, and Grigorenko is pretty solid.

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03-02-2012, 01:22 PM
  #1027
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
I agree, but we're a win away from passing the Isles and the Canes which would leave us picking 5th. IMO this is a great draft to be picking 5th, as we'd likely have our choice between Galchenyuk and Forsberg.

That said, the top 3 of Yakupov, Murray, and Grigorenko is pretty solid.
I'd rather pick at #2-3 than at #3-7 I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

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03-02-2012, 01:25 PM
  #1028
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I'd rather pick at #2-3 than at #3-7 I'm not sure I follow the logic here.
What we're talking about is the depth of the draft. Obviously a #3 pick is better than a #5 pick, but what we are talking about is this is a good draft if you happen to be picking 5th as opposed to a draft where it's top heavy and the depth falls off a cliff after the first couple of guys...

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03-02-2012, 01:42 PM
  #1029
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
What we're talking about is the depth of the draft. Obviously a #3 pick is better than a #5 pick, but what we are talking about is this is a good draft if you happen to be picking 5th as opposed to a draft where it's top heavy and the depth falls off a cliff after the first couple of guys...
But there is no way of knowing that. Maybe it will be a draft with only 2 superstar talents on Grigs and Yakupov and the rest will be just decent NHL'ers. Do people seriously think Dumba, Murray or Trouba have Norris potential? I highly doubt that. Galchenyuk might turn out the third best player in the draft and become elite as well, but that's about it. Forsberg did well in the WJC but his team is in the second tier and he's not a world breaker or anything, I wouldn't set my sights on him either we need a franchise player not an other MPS.

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03-02-2012, 01:51 PM
  #1030
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
But there is no way of knowing that. Maybe it will be a draft with only 2 superstar talents on Grigs and Yakupov and the rest will be just decent NHL'ers. Do people seriously think Dumba, Murray or Trouba have Norris potential? I highly doubt that. Galchenyuk might turn out the third best player in the draft and become elite as well, but that's about it. Forsberg did well in the WJC but his team is in the second tier and he's not a world breaker or anything, I wouldn't set my sights on him either we need a franchise player not an other MPS.
Noones saying those guys have blue chip Norris potential, if they did they'd be in the mix to go #1 overall. But all three guys look like blue chip top pairing guys, and blue chip top pairing guys are generally top 5 picks any year.

Bottom line is we don't really know anythign, so much hinges on post draft development and that aspect doesn't transpire until after the draft obviously. But heading into the draft, I consider this a good draft to have a #5 pick...

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03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
  #1031
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Or Galchenyuk and Forsberg could just as well become the best players from this draft. These guys are so early in their respective development that it's very difficult to say how they'll end up.

Stating that Yakupov and Grigorenko are the only two superstar talents in this draft is a mistake IMO.

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03-02-2012, 03:25 PM
  #1032
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Or Galchenyuk and Forsberg could just as well become the best players from this draft. These guys are so early in their respective development that it's very difficult to say how they'll end up.

Stating that Yakupov and Grigorenko are the only two superstar talents in this draft is a mistake IMO.
So could some random guy in the 6th round. Your point is moot.

People are judging the draft based on what they have to work with at the moment.

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03-02-2012, 04:16 PM
  #1033
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Seems like grigorenko could put up 100 points in nhl as a ceiling for his career, but it would probably be 70 assists or something, hes huge, but that doesnt mean he'll be delivering bone crushing hits, just means he wont be shrugged off the puck as easily, which is not bad too, he really does remind one of thornton more than malkin

With galchenyuk, it seems like hes got more of a goal scorers touch, they talk about speed, but lets see what a torn acl does to a 17 yr old kid, seems better defensivly, and seems tonhave a good shot, could be a potential toews, we' ll see

Yakupov is the next bure, that much is obvious

But having trouble finding a comparison for forsberg

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03-02-2012, 04:28 PM
  #1034
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Seems like grigorenko could put up 100 points in nhl as a ceiling for his career, but it would probably be 70 assists or something, hes huge, but that doesnt mean he'll be delivering bone crushing hits, just means he wont be shrugged off the puck as easily, which is not bad too, he really does remind one of thornton more than malkin

With galchenyuk, it seems like hes got more of a goal scorers touch, they talk about speed, but lets see what a torn acl does to a 17 yr old kid, seems better defensivly, and seems tonhave a good shot, could be a potential toews, we' ll see

Yakupov is the next bure, that much is obvious

But having trouble finding a comparison for forsberg
His age will play a positive role in recovering from that type of injury. If he can return from it at 100% I see him making the jump from junior to the NHL next year. He already has NHL level puck protection, speed, and defensive play. I think he could put up Duchene like numbers if given the chance his first season.

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03-02-2012, 04:41 PM
  #1035
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Much better than Thornton and more talented Getzlaf?
Jean Beliveau

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03-02-2012, 05:22 PM
  #1036
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Seems like grigorenko could put up 100 points in nhl as a ceiling for his career, but it would probably be 70 assists or something, hes huge, but that doesnt mean he'll be delivering bone crushing hits, just means he wont be shrugged off the puck as easily, which is not bad too, he really does remind one of thornton more than malkin

With galchenyuk, it seems like hes got more of a goal scorers touch, they talk about speed, but lets see what a torn acl does to a 17 yr old kid, seems better defensivly, and seems tonhave a good shot, could be a potential toews, we' ll see

Yakupov is the next bure, that much is obvious

But having trouble finding a comparison for forsberg
Daniel Alfredsson?

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03-02-2012, 06:10 PM
  #1037
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Daniel Alfredsson?
Forsberg actually reminds me alot of Lars Eller...

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03-02-2012, 06:29 PM
  #1038
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Forsberg actually reminds me alot of Lars Eller...
You mean he has no offensive upside because he will put up 17 points in his rookie season?

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03-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #1039
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Heresay, I know, but if Timmins believes that Murray/Dumba/Reilly are better than Grigorenko/Forsberg/Galenychuk then I hope he has the stones to make the unpopular choice. Yes, we have a lot of defense prospects, especially compared to our forwards, but chances are none of them are going to be ready for at least another two years, perhaps not really having an impact for another three to five years. At which point who knows what our depth chart will look like? Trades happen, there are salary cap implications, injuries, you name it.

I am not against taking a forward IF Timmins and company have a forward at the top of their list when it comes time to pick. But I don't want to be drafting on need, when by all accounts that's the worst thing a team could be doing.

Best player available.
I agree. And more than that, I actually think we have a need for a top pairing defenseman. Sure, we need a legitimate top line, go-to guy more, but that doesn't mean we don't also need a top pairing defenseman.

The way I see it, a legitimate top pairing defenseman is someone who can effectively play tough minutes (he's a guy you want out there against the opponent's best line or player) and produce offense (so not just a pure shut down guy). Subban has that ability, but who else has that ability or projects to have that ability? Markov, but with Markov's knee and age (he's 15 years older than this year's draft eligibles), you don't not pick someone just because Markov on the roster. After Markov, I don't see anyone.

Gorges? Tough minute player, but doesn't have the offense/transitional skills.
Emelin? He's 25 and has 5 points. He showed some skills in Russia, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Weber? Throw him out against a top line every shift? No thanks.
Diaz? Throw him out against a top line every shift? No thanks.
Beaulieu? He's got the offense, but can you project him to be a tough minute player? I don't think so.
Tinordi? Hopefully will be a tough minute shut down guy, who can make a nice first pass.
Our B prospects (Mitera, Ellis, Nash, Dietz, Pateryn, Didier, Stejskal)? Seriously, if you can get one good third pairing guy out of the bunch--the kind of guy you don't necessarily mind getting caught out there against a top line--you're sitting pretty.

You put Subban out with a tough minute guy and you have a decent top pairing. Now let's say you throw Beaulieu out with Subban in a few years? That's not likely a top pairing you trust. Let's say you throw Beaulieu out with a tough minute guy? That might be a decent/good second pairing, with the tough minute guy insulating Beaulieu a bit and Beaulieu providing his offense. Do you win with a decent top pairing and a decent second pairing? I don't know, but you don't generally win with just a decent defense. You can hope players reach their maximum potential and that decent defense become more than decent, but you can't rely on it.

I think Murray projects to be a top pairing guy (basically Josh Gorges with elite skating, strong passing, strong transitional play, and a 94mph slapshot). Put him with Subban and, despite their average frames (Murray's 6'0 201 now, will probably add another 10 or so), and you have the potential for a really nice top pairing. Put him with a tough minute guy (maybe Tinordi) and you have two lines you can throw out against anyone. Pair Beaulieu with a tough minute guy and you've got a great third pairing. A good top pairing and a decent second pairing is significantly better than a a decent top pairing and a decent second pairing. Two decent top pairings and a great third pairing is even better.

Dumba is similar. I think he can be a tough minute guy in the same vein as Subban. He's got that same physical ability and competitveness, plus he's already played a similar role, being matched up against Forsberg and Grigorenko at the Ivan Hlinka's. You can't play him with Subban or Beaulieu, but put him with a tough minute guy and you should have another pairing you can throw out against anyone and still produce some offense. Again, pair Beaulieu with a tough minute guy and you've got a great third pairing. Two decent top pairings and a great third pairing? Sounds pretty good to me.

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03-02-2012, 06:58 PM
  #1040
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I think habs need to draft a foward, our prospect pool is pretty bad. From what I've been hearing Faksa could be making a big push to be in atleast in the top10. Decent sized kid, nose for the net and a really nice wrister.

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03-02-2012, 07:06 PM
  #1041
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Thornton is a career PPG player who has a couple of 100 point seasons notched on his belt. If Grigs became that he'd be an absolute stud. This is assuming he wouldn't disappear come playoff time like Thornton has...
That last bit is exactly why we compare him to Thornton.

I'll take a guy who gets 20 less points a season but shows up when we need him the most.

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03-02-2012, 07:20 PM
  #1042
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That last bit is exactly why we compare him to Thornton.

I'll take a guy who gets 20 less points a season but shows up when we need him the most.
The guy hasn't played a single playoff game and he's already being called a choker?

The **** is wrong with the bunch of you?

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03-02-2012, 07:29 PM
  #1043
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That last bit is exactly why we compare him to Thornton.

I'll take a guy who gets 20 less points a season but shows up when we need him the most.
As Em Ancien said, what would make you believe that to be the case?

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03-02-2012, 07:34 PM
  #1044
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The guy hasn't played a single playoff game and he's already being called a choker?

The **** is wrong with the bunch of you?
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
As Em Ancien said, what would make you believe that to be the case?
I'm just saying that's why he's being compared to Thornton.

By all accounts he seems to only show up when he wants in the regular season. So maybe he's like Kovalev and turns it up, or maybe he's like Thornton and can't take being checked closely.

But you think with his skill and size he'd be more highly touted. Some scouts have him outside of their Top 5. Who knows?

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03-02-2012, 07:48 PM
  #1045
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I'm watching London vs Oshawa right now, and Olli Maatta looks very steady so far. I wouldn't mind picking him with our 3rd round pick, or even our late 2nd.

Edit: Or not, I just quickly looked at Craig Button's list before and he had him ranked 53rd, but apparently he's a high first round pick with everyone else.


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Old
03-02-2012, 07:52 PM
  #1046
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As demonstrated by the Hodgson/Kassian deal, young players can be swapped, so that lends credibility to the BPA argument which might be true. Combo of Murray and Beaulieu along with Subban and Tinordi could be devastating.

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03-02-2012, 07:54 PM
  #1047
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I'm just saying that's why he's being compared to Thornton.

By all accounts he seems to only show up when he wants in the regular season. So maybe he's like Kovalev and turns it up, or maybe he's like Thornton and can't take being checked closely.

But you think with his skill and size he'd be more highly touted. Some scouts have him outside of their Top 5. Who knows?
This is taken from the prospects board and I'll assume the numbers are correct ( too lazy to fact check ) but if correct, he seems to play his best when it counts. That said, I wouldn't be against drafting Galchenyuk.

"This season, in 13 games versus the three powerhouses in the league (St. Jean, Shawinigan and Victoriaville), Grigorenko has 10 goals and 18 points. That's about 0.77 goals per game and 1.38 ppg. In 7 games versus the three bottom feeders in the standing (IPE, Cape Breton and Rouyn-Noranda), he has 3 goals and 10 points (0.43 gpc and 1.43 ppg). Essentially, he has the same point production, but his gpc nearly doubles when he faces the powerhouses of the Q.

Now, in tight games (games decided by 2 goals or less), Grigorenko has 1.57 ppg and participates in 43% of the Quebec Remparts' goals. In "blowouts" (games decided by 3 goals or more), he scores 1.45 ppg and participates in 30% of his team's goal. This shows that he elevates his games in close game and that he doesn't boost his stats in blowouts as the scout suggested.

Either that scout is throwing some smokescreens or he's an idiot."

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Old
03-02-2012, 08:40 PM
  #1048
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I agree. And more than that, I actually think we have a need for a top pairing defenseman. Sure, we need a legitimate top line, go-to guy more, but that doesn't mean we don't also need a top pairing defenseman.
Well thought out and written, thanks.

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Old
03-02-2012, 08:58 PM
  #1049
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As demonstrated by the Hodgson/Kassian deal, young players can be swapped, so that lends credibility to the BPA argument which might be true. Combo of Murray and Beaulieu along with Subban and Tinordi could be devastating.
You'd **** in your pants with a defense like that but i'd still take galchenyuk Grigorenko Forsberg we need more offense than defense for sure.

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03-02-2012, 09:08 PM
  #1050
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Quote:
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Daniel Alfredsson?
Alfredsson in his prime is pretty beast, alwas liked him

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