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Old
03-01-2012, 07:44 PM
  #76
Winger23
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I really hope some here are not basing this because of one shut out. I like JB a lot but he really is still too unproven too assume he could be just as good as quick has.

I think some are really underestimating just how good quick has been this year.

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03-01-2012, 07:57 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
As an outsider, I think you have to keep Quick and move Bernier for other assets that can benefit the team. Hang your hat on Quick for the next ten years and sign a reliable back-up (of which there are many in the NHL).
I agree +1000

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03-01-2012, 10:23 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Ollie Weeks View Post
Quick's rebounds have improved overall, and he's a bit nastier these days, which I like. He still gets burned by over committing to shooters, but again not as badly as he used to. The D-core really shines in clearing the house for him in this regard.

One thing that always bothered me about Bernier is that although he is the more technical and composed of the two in his positioning, he has trouble reacting to traffic and scrambles. I don't know what to call that, so I'll go with "improvisation."
It's called not enough game time. People have mentioned Quick has improved his rebound control. Yet, they continue to talk about his athleticism. The reason they speak of this trait is due to his poor rebound control. He makes miraculous saves after giving up poor rebounds on first shots... No surprise there..
Quick still is very poor at moving the puck despite playing over and over and over again.
Makes one wonder how good Bernier would be if he was given half a chance to play some games.
On top of that, imagine if Quick would only have played 13 games this year...
In 2008-2009 when Quick was called up it was a coin flip between him and Bernier. Quick and Bernier could very easily could be switched around....
If we do make the playoffs, Quick will be on a much shorter leash based on Quick's past two years in the playoffs.
Quick has done extremely well statistically in front of a defensive team. However, he has no right to play the way he has in the playoffs the past two years and for us to stick with him.

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03-01-2012, 10:31 PM
  #79
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How is Bernier supposed to "prove" himself when he plays 13 out of 64 games.
I would certainly hope that Quick has improved playing 80% of the games. That seems like it is at the very least expected.
More surprisingly, Bernier has remained steady with good numbers despite virtually only playing in practice situations.

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03-02-2012, 12:44 AM
  #80
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First, this is a nice "problem" to have. But I agree that we shouldn't sign any goaltender for more than 4-5 yrs max. They're way too inconsistent long term. The chance that we sign either to a 10 yr contract and being worth it that long is too slim.

As far as choosing one, I hope we get to see both in playoffs somehow.

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03-02-2012, 01:34 AM
  #81
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The way hes played, you HAVE to keep Quick. I think Bernier can be a #1 somewhere but you just can't be that stupid to trade your MVP and a guy who should be a Hart contender unless he wants 8 million a year. Keeping Bernier to hope he can do that is insane.

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03-02-2012, 01:51 AM
  #82
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I think these (hopefully) playoffs will have a huge impact on what kind of offer DL gives Quick. Another mediocre showing could result in DL being unwilling to give Quick $6+ million/year and go with Bernier (if Quick is set on a huge payday). If Quick carries his play from the regular season into the playoffs, it will be impossible to let him go and Bernier will be traded.

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03-02-2012, 12:00 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventyx7 View Post
I think these (hopefully) playoffs will have a huge impact on what kind of offer DL gives Quick. Another mediocre showing could result in DL being unwilling to give Quick $6+ million/year and go with Bernier (if Quick is set on a huge payday). If Quick carries his play from the regular season into the playoffs, it will be impossible to let him go and Bernier will be traded.
who does Bernier have to be traded at all? all of the best teams have a great backup goalie. we have the pieces we need to make a deep run in the playoffs, its just a matter of getting them to produce

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03-02-2012, 01:21 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
I really hope some here are not basing this because of one shut out. I like JB a lot but he really is still too unproven too assume he could be just as good as quick has.

I think some are really underestimating just how good quick has been this year.
That's what I find interesting about this debate: the assumption by some fans that Bernier is going to be better than Quick. What's the rationale? Loftier draft position? Subjective "technical" abilities?

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03-02-2012, 01:48 PM
  #85
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I think the rational is that everyone including Patrick Roy has anointed JB as the best young goalie prospect that they have seen in a very long time. Everything that is ever said about a developing prospect is going to be subjective and most of what is said about established players will be as well.

In JB"s case he does all of the things that most great goalies do (or did when they were developing) and that is why he is so highly thought of around the league.

JQuick is and has been amazing for us, especially when you consider that he is known for being an "athletic" type of goalie. Athletic goalies are the unconventional style players who use athleticism to make saves more so than relying on technical abilities.

To me, you go with the best goalie that you have regardless of their style but in regards to JB v JQ I tend to agree that JB has the potential to be the better of the two down the line. Think Broduer (Technical) and Roy (athletic). Both of them are a mixture of both styles of play but one tends to be more technical and the other more athletic. Both great goalies (maybe the two best of all time) but which would you rather have?

There is your answer. It is a matter of preference salted with longevity.

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03-02-2012, 02:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I think the rational is that everyone including Patrick Roy has anointed JB as the best young goalie prospect that they have seen in a very long time. Everything that is ever said about a developing prospect is going to be subjective and most of what is said about established players will be as well.

In JB"s case he does all of the things that most great goalies do (or did when they were developing) and that is why he is so highly thought of around the league.

JQuick is and has been amazing for us, especially when you consider that he is known for being an "athletic" type of goalie. Athletic goalies are the unconventional style players who use athleticism to make saves more so than relying on technical abilities.

To me, you go with the best goalie that you have regardless of their style but in regards to JB v JQ I tend to agree that JB has the potential to be the better of the two down the line. Think Broduer (Technical) and Roy (athletic). Both of them are a mixture of both styles of play but one tends to be more technical and the other more athletic. Both great goalies (maybe the two best of all time) but which would you rather have?

There is your answer. It is a matter of preference salted with longevity.
The biggest difference is that in the last 2-3 years Quick's technical game has grown immensely. His positioning, rebound control, and focus have all improved quite drastically which is an advantage that he has over Bernier. Bernier's athleticism will likely never improve to a point where he is on par with Quick in that regard, but the technical gap between the two has almost dissolved.


Last edited by redcard: 03-02-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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03-02-2012, 02:38 PM
  #87
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I think a lot of people here have been playing too much NHL 12. Every game could be Quick's last good game. Same goes for any goalie. With the volatile nature of goaltenders there's no knowing how long they'll be good for.

Keep both as long as you can. It's not like we'll be able to get a decent return on Bernier with the amount of great goaltenders there are out there.

Only reason I want Bernier traded is for Bernier to get some starts. I feel bad for the kid.

If you had to trade a goalie, you'd trade Bernier. But we really don't have to. And having Bernier may keep Quick's salary expectations a bit lower.

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03-02-2012, 02:42 PM
  #88
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To the people saying you don't have to trade either, I agree with you to a point. Both are signed through next season, I don't think you HAVE to make a decision until then. But at some point Bernier is going to get frusterated being the backup. He is a damn good goalie, and when you get too very good goalies playing for the same team both wanting to be the starter, both young as well, it is going to eventually create some serious problems in the dressing room. So far Bernier appears to be the perfect teammates, but eventually that will change, and really can you blame him? He deserves his chance. Next year will be the LAST year they can go with this tandem, IMO.

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03-02-2012, 02:44 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcard View Post
The biggest difference is that in the last 2-3 years Quick's technical game has grown immensely. His positioning, rebound control, and focus have all improved quite drastically which is an advantage that he has over Bernier. Bernier's athleticism will likely never improve to a point where he is on par with Quick in that regard, but the technical gap between the two has almost dissolved.
I agree and what you are saying is in line with what I had said about the difference between Broduer and Roy in that both of them while seen being solely technical or athletic goalies at the start of their respective careers by the time they reached the end of them they each had developed significantly as hybrids of the two styles.

JB will have to continue to become more athletic to become great in the same manner that JQ has and will continue to develop his technical game.

I think that starting off with either style can lend itself as a great platform in developing an amazing goalie.

Keep JQ or JB? Well imo JQ has earned the position and unless his demands are too great for us to meet we should do all that we reasonably can to keep him.

I would move JB but not until I had to and only for the most I could possibly get for him. He is a special and talented player and I think that if he was given a year with a good team he would be in the top ten in every category that matters, if not higher.

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03-02-2012, 03:20 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcard View Post
The biggest difference is that in the last 2-3 years Quick's technical game has grown immensely. His positioning, rebound control, and focus have all improved quite drastically which is an advantage that he has over Bernier. Bernier's athleticism will likely never improve to a point where he is on par with Quick in that regard, but the technical gap between the two has almost dissolved.
I completely disagree with this. Quick is still over playing shots all the time, he just has a defensive system and defense in front of him that clears a ton of rebounds and/or forces players wide. Quick is much better this season, but Bernier is much calmer in the net and he makes the toughest saves look easy. Quick has given up far fewer "weak" goals this season and that has a lot to do with his better numbers. I attribute that to better preparation and concentration in games, more so than any technical ability he has gained.

A great example of this is the 3-on-2 that Minnesota had in the last game; Bernier makes an extremely tough save look easy. The shot came right from the slot with a ton of space and Bernier just calmly skated out and stopped the puck with no rebound.

The Wild created some great chances in that game and Bernier made them look routine. I would much rather play in front of that type of goalie than the one that sprawls all over the place and makes the highlight reel saves, even when they should look routine.

Bernier hasn't given up more than 2 goals in any starts since December, yet he almost never starts. Doesn't make sense, but at least Sutter admitted that he made a mistake in starting Quick against the Avalanche. Who knows, those could be the 2 points that the Kings lost that keeps them out of the playoffs.

Bernier should at least start 4 more games this year, which is the number of back-to-backs the Kings have left. I don't care if he plays the first game or second, but he needs to start one of them.

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03-02-2012, 03:26 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
To the people saying you don't have to trade either, I agree with you to a point. Both are signed through next season, I don't think you HAVE to make a decision until then. But at some point Bernier is going to get frusterated being the backup. He is a damn good goalie, and when you get too very good goalies playing for the same team both wanting to be the starter, both young as well, it is going to eventually create some serious problems in the dressing room. So far Bernier appears to be the perfect teammates, but eventually that will change, and really can you blame him? He deserves his chance. Next year will be the LAST year they can go with this tandem, IMO.
If Quick wants $7 million per, would you give it to him?

I personally wouldn't and would look to move him and give Bernier his shot. I wouldn't go above 4 years either, unless it was for a low cap hit. 7+ years at $7 million? No thanks.

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03-02-2012, 03:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I completely disagree with this. Quick is still over playing shots all the time, he just has a defensive system and defense in front of him that clears a ton of rebounds and/or forces players wide. Quick is much better this season, but Bernier is much calmer in the net and he makes the toughest saves look easy. Quick has given up far fewer "weak" goals this season and that has a lot to do with his better numbers. I attribute that to better preparation and concentration in games, more so than any technical ability he has gained.

A great example of this is the 3-on-2 that Minnesota had in the last game; Bernier makes an extremely tough save look easy. The shot came right from the slot with a ton of space and Bernier just calmly skated out and stopped the puck with no rebound.

The Wild created some great chances in that game and Bernier made them look routine. I would much rather play in front of that type of goalie than the one that sprawls all over the place and makes the highlight reel saves, even when they should look routine.

Bernier hasn't given up more than 2 goals in any starts since December, yet he almost never starts. Doesn't make sense, but at least Sutter admitted that he made a mistake in starting Quick against the Avalanche. Who knows, those could be the 2 points that the Kings lost that keeps them out of the playoffs.

Bernier should at least start 4 more games this year, which is the number of back-to-backs the Kings have left. I don't care if he plays the first game or second, but he needs to start one of them.
Fully disagree about quick and rebounds. He is swallowing everything up this year. Also. On out numbered attacks quick has been stellar this year.

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03-02-2012, 03:49 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Fully disagree about quick and rebounds. He is swallowing everything up this year. Also. On out numbered attacks quick has been stellar this year.
There's no way to officially prove it one way or the other since we can't watch every single save Quick has made this season, but he still gives up a TON of rebounds. Keep an eye on how many pucks come back out into the slot off of his leg pads the next several games.

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03-02-2012, 04:14 PM
  #94
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I completely disagree with this. Quick is still over playing shots all the time, he just has a defensive system and defense in front of him that clears a ton of rebounds and/or forces players wide. Quick is much better this season, but Bernier is much calmer in the net and he makes the toughest saves look easy. Quick has given up far fewer "weak" goals this season and that has a lot to do with his better numbers. I attribute that to better preparation and concentration in games, more so than any technical ability he has gained.

A great example of this is the 3-on-2 that Minnesota had in the last game; Bernier makes an extremely tough save look easy. The shot came right from the slot with a ton of space and Bernier just calmly skated out and stopped the puck with no rebound.

The Wild created some great chances in that game and Bernier made them look routine. I would much rather play in front of that type of goalie than the one that sprawls all over the place and makes the highlight reel saves, even when they should look routine.

Bernier hasn't given up more than 2 goals in any starts since December, yet he almost never starts. Doesn't make sense, but at least Sutter admitted that he made a mistake in starting Quick against the Avalanche. Who knows, those could be the 2 points that the Kings lost that keeps them out of the playoffs.

Bernier should at least start 4 more games this year, which is the number of back-to-backs the Kings have left. I don't care if he plays the first game or second, but he needs to start one of them.

agree with pretty much all of this.. however "this wont happen" but JB and JQ should split the rest of the season riding on the hot hand.. I don't want to miss playoffs because JQ is burnt out and letting in routine saves.

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03-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I completely disagree with this. Quick is still over playing shots all the time, he just has a defensive system and defense in front of him that clears a ton of rebounds and/or forces players wide. Quick is much better this season, but Bernier is much calmer in the net and he makes the toughest saves look easy. Quick has given up far fewer "weak" goals this season and that has a lot to do with his better numbers. I attribute that to better preparation and concentration in games, more so than any technical ability he has gained.

A great example of this is the 3-on-2 that Minnesota had in the last game; Bernier makes an extremely tough save look easy. The shot came right from the slot with a ton of space and Bernier just calmly skated out and stopped the puck with no rebound.

The Wild created some great chances in that game and Bernier made them look routine. I would much rather play in front of that type of goalie than the one that sprawls all over the place and makes the highlight reel saves, even when they should look routine.

Bernier hasn't given up more than 2 goals in any starts since December, yet he almost never starts. Doesn't make sense, but at least Sutter admitted that he made a mistake in starting Quick against the Avalanche. Who knows, those could be the 2 points that the Kings lost that keeps them out of the playoffs.

Bernier should at least start 4 more games this year, which is the number of back-to-backs the Kings have left. I don't care if he plays the first game or second, but he needs to start one of them.
JQ does still overplay certain shots and isn't technically perfect (in accordance with more technical goalies) but he has improved technically in leaps and bounds. He still has to rely too much on his athleticism to be called technically sound but he has become allot better in every area including his tech game.

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03-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #96
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I'm not really that impressed by the fact that Bernier is "technically sound."

It's what's between the ears that makes goaltenders great; that's why they're notoriously difficult to predict.

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03-02-2012, 06:21 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaLaLand View Post
agree with pretty much all of this.. however "this wont happen" but JB and JQ should split the rest of the season riding on the hot hand.. I don't want to miss playoffs because JQ is burnt out and letting in routine saves.
Why on earth would the Kings treat Quick that way?

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03-02-2012, 06:42 PM
  #98
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I was always taught that the goalie that makes flashy saves is the goalie that is out of position. Quicks rebounds is good not great, but i will say he does save our bacon most nights, and i love his feisty'ness this season. Wish we could roll a 1A 1B system where they both play.

We need to see how Quick does in the playoffs, he has to prove he can do it.

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03-02-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
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If Quick wants $7 million per, would you give it to him?

I personally wouldn't and would look to move him and give Bernier his shot. I wouldn't go above 4 years either, unless it was for a low cap hit. 7+ years at $7 million? No thanks.
Didn't say I would go either way. Simply stating the tandem AS IS, cannot stay together past next season, it will simply not work off the ice. It will create real problems in the dressing room, something you cannot afford.

On the Quick front, 7 million is too much for any goalie, IMO. I am not too concerned about a 5-6-7 year term, if the average is solid. No 12 year Luongo fiasco's but having Quick locked up long term at 4.5-5.5 million is fine by me. I go with the proven talent every day, but there is alot of work to be done before a final decision right now. DL will know the mood of the locker room (huge for goaltending), he'll know what kind of person Quick is, what Quick is looking for in a deal, and a bunch of other factors. Right now I am content that the Kings can throw either goalie out and be confident in them, this off-season and going into next year is when to focus on this.

Who knows, maybe Quick is a world beater in this playoffs (if Kings make it), maybe Quick falters and Bernier steps up and is huge in playoffs. Maybe they both flop, we will see.

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03-02-2012, 07:30 PM
  #100
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fwiw Bernier > Quick in the stick handling dept that is for sure.

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