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Old
03-02-2012, 04:29 PM
  #51
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Of course having tough guys makes others act tougher, take the Bruins as an example. You have guys like Bergeron, Kelly, Marchand and Peverley acting like big tough guys. We all know that would be different if Thornton and Chara weren't there.

That being said, no, I don't think it's strong enough influence to actually be the difference between a win and a loss.

What happened to all this toughness when we allowed 3 goals in 4min? 2 of them with 1:40 left?

It's good to see them stick up for another and at least show that if you push our guys there will be consequences, but there are more important things to fix.
You are misunderstanding confidence. Confidence does not guarantee a victory every night. Confidence does not ensure perfection. A confident player does not score on every shot. A confident player will, however, overall be more successful and play a better game over time.

This team sucks when it comes to confidence. They have been beaten down over what has been a horrible season through injuries, coaching decisions, coaching changes, trades during the middle of a game, you name it and it probably happened to the Habs this season.

To hear Subban say what he said is refreshing. It is but a start and this team has a long way to go. But at least its there.

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03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I do understand the dynamics, I just don't think Staubitz is the key to success. I think a guy like White certainly might be, because he can actually play hockey. And yes, we were definitely missing this element all year.

I also realize you need to go mix of everything. But toughness to me equals victories. Anybody can dress a bunch of fighters and claim to be tough, but they'll be dead last in the NHL. No toughness in that. That was the point I was making. That at the end of the day, all I care about are wins. I guess people missed it completely.
Equally, you are missing our point then.

Not many people want a "bunch of fighters" on this team. We want a team that has talented scorers and a fourth line that can handle problems that come up on the ice during a game. We also want a couple of DMen who are big and tough and can fight if need be.

I am all about winning as well.

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03-02-2012, 04:39 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I do understand the dynamics, I just don't think Staubitz is the key to success. I think a guy like White certainly might be, because he can actually play hockey. And yes, we were definitely missing this element all year.

I also realize you need to go mix of everything. But toughness to me equals victories. Anybody can dress a bunch of fighters and claim to be tough, but they'll be dead last in the NHL. No toughness in that. That was the point I was making. That at the end of the day, all I care about are wins. I guess people missed it completely.
You're dead on. We've been picked on for so long that some people have turned size and toughness into their cure-all for the Habs. It's not. Fighting creates a mood, but it doesn't score goals or defend in our zone. Toughness helps when it comes in the form of Eric Cole, not an enforcer.

I'm glad we got bigger and I loved watching our guys having each other's backs. Yes, we needed those elements. But it's all a pointless distraction if there's not enough talent on the ice for our tough guys to protect.

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03-02-2012, 04:44 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Equally, you are missing our point then.

Not many people want a "bunch of fighters" on this team. We want a team that has talented scorers and a fourth line that can handle problems that come up on the ice during a game. We also want a couple of DMen who are big and tough and can fight if need be.

I am all about winning as well.
What you said here makes sense, but there's a perception that we need even more tough guys. As if Staubitz is just a start. He's not, he should be the end. With him, White, Moen, plus an overall boost in size, our team is big enough and tough enough. Our one and only focus now should be talent (yes, ideally over 6').

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03-02-2012, 04:48 PM
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TO game will be fun to watch. i expect and excessive violent game
With our revitalized trolling, we can expect them to take a bunch of penalties.

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03-02-2012, 05:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
What you said here makes sense, but there's a perception that we need even more tough guys. As if Staubitz is just a start. He's not, he should be the end. With him, White, Moen, plus an overall boost in size, our team is big enough and tough enough. Our one and only focus now should be talent (yes, ideally over 6').
On the offense, yes, Staubitz, White, Moen would be enough although would love to see Prust in the lineup.

On defense, we are woefully lacking in big tough guys. Our offense needs a couple of additions but our defense needs a 50% overhaul.

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03-02-2012, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
What you said here makes sense, but there's a perception that we need even more tough guys. As if Staubitz is just a start. He's not, he should be the end. With him, White, Moen, plus an overall boost in size, our team is big enough and tough enough. Our one and only focus now should be talent (yes, ideally over 6').
I'm agree with you my friend ! But the problem is that we played the majority of the games without any of them this year. Now the problem is fixed and I'm very happy to have those 3 guys in the line-up

I just don't want to see a step back next year if we don't resign Staubitz. He must stay

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03-02-2012, 05:21 PM
  #58
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Team toughness?

We need winners on our team, let it be a team of winning-"midgets" - if they just have the will to win and play, everything is good.

At times we did well, with our "old" group of players, made it far in the playoffs - thanks to Halak aswell. But there was times, where they played great hockey and could beat anyone on a good day.

But something happened, time to rebuild. I think starting off with the good things this season - Deharnais's line - is a good start. They might work out to be a very good 1st line next season - then we just need to fix our defense and probably our 2nd scoring line. (my first post, there you go)

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03-02-2012, 05:41 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Remi View Post
Team toughness?

We need winners on our team, let it be a team of winning-"midgets" - if they just have the will to win and play, everything is good.

At times we did well, with our "old" group of players, made it far in the playoffs - thanks to Halak aswell. But there was times, where they played great hockey and could beat anyone on a good day.

But something happened, time to rebuild. I think starting off with the good things this season - Deharnais's line - is a good start. They might work out to be a very good 1st line next season - then we just need to fix our defense and probably our 2nd scoring line. (my first post, there you go)
Welcome to the Board!!

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03-02-2012, 06:17 PM
  #60
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I guess some posters enjoy it when Price gets hacked to death and none of our players do anything. Or having 2 idiots in the crease and our soft d being unable to move them...leading to goals, goals, goals. Or seeing our players get creamed along the boards or in the trenches. Was it enjoyable to see our team play a perimeter offensive game because they were too afraid to go in the dirty areas?

Team toughness does not equal fighting. And fighting does not equal gooning. It's amazing how some posters struggle to understand this. No doubt in my mind these people never played the game at any level.

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03-02-2012, 06:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
On the offense, yes, Staubitz, White, Moen would be enough although would love to see Prust in the lineup.

On defense, we are woefully lacking in big tough guys. Our offense needs a couple of additions but our defense needs a 50% overhaul.
Agreed. Thing is, we can't afford to have big defensemen who aren't also really skilled. That's gold for any team and not easy to find. Finding big guys is easy; finding big guys who can really play is damn hard. It's one thing to have a fourth-line forward on the ice just because he can physically intimidate, but it's much more dangerous when that less-skilled guy is playing defense.

I've been hollering for a shutdown defenseman for a long time and would sell my children to an Asian sweatshop for the chance to get Suter. With him and one of our big boys graduating from Hamilton, we could be in much better shape next year. If we can't get that - a real possibility - we'll have to rely on our backchecking forwards to clear out the opposing forwards, cause our current crop of defensemen aren't doing that.

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03-02-2012, 06:39 PM
  #62
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Uh, let's struggle to understand this reasoning. The Koivu-Kovalev team won the entire East, wasn't "tough", didn't go far enough in the playoffs. The Halak era team was "soft", didn't go quite far enough in the playoffs. This current team, fortunately, is tough -- really tough! -- full of guys who are ready to fight and defend their teammates and not be pushed around and the rest...and it is the worst Canadiens team in many many years and will finish the season either in last place in the league or very close to it.
What are we missing here?
The truth: the Habs built their dynasties not on toughness -- though they always had a big body (Robinson) or an obnoxious pest (Claude Lemeiux) on hand -- but exclusively on speed, skill , and team play. There is no other solution to the mysteries of hockey.The pursuit of toughness is the Maple Leaf's formula for perpetual mediocrity. Guaranteed.

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03-02-2012, 06:45 PM
  #63
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The habs team has only been tough for two games. I wouldn't blame the season record on their toughness.

It was soft for most of the season.

The Koivu Kovalev team had Sourray, Laraque... and the Halak team had Moen and Gill.

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03-02-2012, 06:52 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
Uh, let's struggle to understand this reasoning. The Koivu-Kovalev team won the entire East, wasn't "tough", didn't go far enough in the playoffs. The Halak era team was "soft", didn't go quite far enough in the playoffs. This current team, fortunately, is tough -- really tough! -- full of guys who are ready to fight and defend their teammates and not be pushed around and the rest...and it is the worst Canadiens team in many many years and will finish the season either in last place in the league or very close to it.
What are we missing here?
The truth: the Habs built their dynasties not on toughness -- though they always had a big body (Robinson) or an obnoxious pest (Claude Lemeiux) on hand -- but exclusively on speed, skill , and team play. There is no other solution to the mysteries of hockey.The pursuit of toughness is the Maple Leaf's formula for perpetual mediocrity. Guaranteed.
Are you serious?

Have you been asleep all season? When in the hell was this team tough? How many fights did you see this year?

Nobody is asking this team to be built on toughness (why is it so hard for some to understand). The team should be built on skill, speed, etc. The PROBLEM is over the last few years they omitted adding toughness which (unfortunately for some of the softies out there) plays a role in today's game. This is hockey, not badminton. Toughness, intimidation, etc has ALWAYS been a part of hockey and it will always be that way. No matter how hard some try to downplay it.

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03-02-2012, 06:58 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The habs team has only been tough for two games. I wouldn't blame the season record on their toughness.

It was soft for most of the season.

The Koivu Kovalev team had Sourray, Laraque... and the Halak team had Moen and Gill.
I see where you're coming from but the Halak team had 0 toughness. The Kovalev-Koivu team had some decent toughness with guys like Souray, Latendresse, Komi, Rivet, Begin, Bouillon, Dandenault, Downey, then you had Ryder, Kovalev, Higgins, etc.. who were bigger guys who could handle their own.

Then the team that was 1st in the east had Komi, Begin, Kostopolous, Bouillon, Dandenault, Hamr, Latendresse, Obyrne, Stewart.

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03-02-2012, 07:13 PM
  #66
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Rupp-Gaustad-White is what we should aim for.
I really wanted Rupp signed this last off season!

He can also give you 10 goals in a season!

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03-02-2012, 07:22 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
Uh, let's struggle to understand this reasoning. The Koivu-Kovalev team won the entire East, wasn't "tough", didn't go far enough in the playoffs. The Halak era team was "soft", didn't go quite far enough in the playoffs. This current team, fortunately, is tough -- really tough! -- full of guys who are ready to fight and defend their teammates and not be pushed around and the rest...and it is the worst Canadiens team in many many years and will finish the season either in last place in the league or very close to it.
What are we missing here?
The truth: the Habs built their dynasties not on toughness -- though they always had a big body (Robinson) or an obnoxious pest (Claude Lemeiux) on hand -- but exclusively on speed, skill , and team play. There is no other solution to the mysteries of hockey.The pursuit of toughness is the Maple Leaf's formula for perpetual mediocrity. Guaranteed.
Can't believe I just read this. Where have you been all season?

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03-02-2012, 07:41 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Agreed. Thing is, we can't afford to have big defensemen who aren't also really skilled. That's gold for any team and not easy to find. Finding big guys is easy; finding big guys who can really play is damn hard. It's one thing to have a fourth-line forward on the ice just because he can physically intimidate, but it's much more dangerous when that less-skilled guy is playing defense.

I've been hollering for a shutdown defenseman for a long time and would sell my children to an Asian sweatshop for the chance to get Suter. With him and one of our big boys graduating from Hamilton, we could be in much better shape next year. If we can't get that - a real possibility - we'll have to rely on our backchecking forwards to clear out the opposing forwards, cause our current crop of defensemen aren't doing that.
Laughing about selling your children.

Other than that, I agree with you.

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03-02-2012, 07:49 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
Uh, let's struggle to understand this reasoning. The Koivu-Kovalev team won the entire East, wasn't "tough", didn't go far enough in the playoffs. The Halak era team was "soft", didn't go quite far enough in the playoffs. This current team, fortunately, is tough -- really tough! -- full of guys who are ready to fight and defend their teammates and not be pushed around and the rest...and it is the worst Canadiens team in many many years and will finish the season either in last place in the league or very close to it.
What are we missing here?
The truth: the Habs built their dynasties not on toughness -- though they always had a big body (Robinson) or an obnoxious pest (Claude Lemeiux) on hand -- but exclusively on speed, skill , and team play. There is no other solution to the mysteries of hockey.The pursuit of toughness is the Maple Leaf's formula for perpetual mediocrity. Guaranteed.
This team is hardly tough. They got a little tougher and can deliver a little more retribution thanks to White and Staubitz, but that's about it. And toughness also includes finishing checks, using bodychecks, and "doing what Tomas Holmstrom does"; it's not just fighting, it is also doing the dirty work well.

So your strawman that toughness leads to more losing is tentative at best, and downright wrong at worst(see Bruins, Pittsburgh, et al. )


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03-02-2012, 07:53 PM
  #70
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You are misunderstanding confidence. Confidence does not guarantee a victory every night. Confidence does not ensure perfection. A confident player does not score on every shot. A confident player will, however, overall be more successful and play a better game over time.

This team sucks when it comes to confidence. They have been beaten down over what has been a horrible season through injuries, coaching decisions, coaching changes, trades during the middle of a game, you name it and it probably happened to the Habs this season.

To hear Subban say what he said is refreshing. It is but a start and this team has a long way to go. But at least its there.
I'm not misunderstanding it. Having a tough guy that will deal with anybody that tries to intimidate his teammates won't really make Gomez snap out of his nasty funk. It won't make a player or a team snap out of their problems. Case in point, we blew yet another lead yesterday. A 3 goal lead with 4min left in the game. Our confidence is just as weak as it was before.

You can say that it's too early for us to see the effect kick in, but I don't buy that.

I also don't buy that a team who's been physically ''beaten'' like we have versus the Bruins, then shows up to almost upset them in the POs, taking them to 3 overtimes.
We didn't have an enforcer, yet we had confidence in our ability to beat them.

Confidence is used a lot as an excuse or reason, but really, in our case this year, I don't think that's the reason for our blown leads. It might hold a small affect, but essentially, skill is the main reason. We have a weak D group. If we have a lead, that means the other team will push more. Doing so just exposes our poor D corps even more. I'm not sure what the numbers are in terms of blown leads in the 3rd, Martin vs RC, but under Cunneyworth, there is no system. His idea of the defensive style/transition is to throw the puck out on the boards, which essentially gives it right back to the opposition. But even under Martin, when you have a young and weak group, they will try to move the puck out asap, which often means swinging on the boards, because they certainly don't want to make a mistake. So, I'm not surprised by our blown leads.


Sure, confidence can be an issue. But I really don't think that's why we've struggled. Nor do I think having an enforcer will actually improve us, or suddenly make Campoli good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Equally, you are missing our point then.

Not many people want a "bunch of fighters" on this team. We want a team that has talented scorers and a fourth line that can handle problems that come up on the ice during a game. We also want a couple of DMen who are big and tough and can fight if need be.

I am all about winning as well.
I know, I was just being extreme. I'm all for a good team with big guys that can also fight when need be.

I'm saying, to me, toughness=ability to win games, not fights.
By that I mean I don't think having a guy like Staubitz is a necessity. A guy like White though, sure, you can make a case for that.

And again, I don't oppose to having a guy like Staubitz, if it's to have such a horrible and useless 4th line like we've had all year, then might as well. But there's a reason why these guys don't play in the POs. Guys like White though do.

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03-03-2012, 02:21 AM
  #71
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What's that boarding hit that Emelin got at some point in the game? There was no retaliation from the Habs.

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03-03-2012, 02:26 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I'm not misunderstanding it. Having a tough guy that will deal with anybody that tries to intimidate his teammates won't really make Gomez snap out of his nasty funk. It won't make a player or a team snap out of their problems. Case in point, we blew yet another lead yesterday. A 3 goal lead with 4min left in the game. Our confidence is just as weak as it was before.

You can say that it's too early for us to see the effect kick in, but I don't buy that.

I also don't buy that a team who's been physically ''beaten'' like we have versus the Bruins, then shows up to almost upset them in the POs, taking them to 3 overtimes.
We didn't have an enforcer, yet we had confidence in our ability to beat them.

Confidence is used a lot as an excuse or reason, but really, in our case this year, I don't think that's the reason for our blown leads. It might hold a small affect, but essentially, skill is the main reason. We have a weak D group. If we have a lead, that means the other team will push more. Doing so just exposes our poor D corps even more. I'm not sure what the numbers are in terms of blown leads in the 3rd, Martin vs RC, but under Cunneyworth, there is no system. His idea of the defensive style/transition is to throw the puck out on the boards, which essentially gives it right back to the opposition. But even under Martin, when you have a young and weak group, they will try to move the puck out asap, which often means swinging on the boards, because they certainly don't want to make a mistake. So, I'm not surprised by our blown leads.


Sure, confidence can be an issue. But I really don't think that's why we've struggled. Nor do I think having an enforcer will actually improve us, or suddenly make Campoli good.



I know, I was just being extreme. I'm all for a good team with big guys that can also fight when need be.

I'm saying, to me, toughness=ability to win games, not fights.
By that I mean I don't think having a guy like Staubitz is a necessity. A guy like White though, sure, you can make a case for that.

And again, I don't oppose to having a guy like Staubitz, if it's to have such a horrible and useless 4th line like we've had all year, then might as well. But there's a reason why these guys don't play in the POs. Guys like White though do.
But the thing is, having a guy like Staubitz has made White grow a few more inches. That's what the presence of a guy like this does. Last time I saw Moen goon it up was when in pre-season he played with some kid named Nielson who had some nerve. but the Martin imbelice didn't like that kid. And Moen returned to his boring self pretty quickly.

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03-03-2012, 03:32 AM
  #73
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But the thing is, having a guy like Staubitz has made White grow a few more inches. That's what the presence of a guy like this does. Last time I saw Moen goon it up was when in pre-season he played with some kid named Nielson who had some nerve. but the Martin imbelice didn't like that kid. And Moen returned to his boring self pretty quickly.
No it hasn't.
Remember when Boychuk tried to take PK completely out? Ryan White didn't hesitate a second before rushing in and punching the crap out of him. The kid understands his role.
You're the one that likes to believe that it actually has changed something, but it really hasn't. Things are exactly as they were.
We still blow leads up, we still have a lot of problem on the D, we still don't score all that much, we still have Plekanec used as a 3rd liner, we still have Gomez used on the PP and now, more so than Plekanec.

Fans in Mtl have been missing this aspect of the game so much that they actually believe it is incredibly impactful, but it really isn't. It really doesn't have much bearing on the end result of a game. It might happen once in a blue moon, but generally speaking, it really doesn't change a whole lot. Some guys might feel better, some might even feel like the team is a little more united, but at the end of the day, it doesn't make you put a puck in the net any better.

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03-03-2012, 04:02 AM
  #74
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Are you serious?

Have you been asleep all season? When in the hell was this team tough? How many fights did you see this year?

Nobody is asking this team to be built on toughness (why is it so hard for some to understand). The team should be built on skill, speed, etc. The PROBLEM is over the last few years they omitted adding toughness which (unfortunately for some of the softies out there) plays a role in today's game. This is hockey, not badminton. Toughness, intimidation, etc has ALWAYS been a part of hockey and it will always be that way. No matter how hard some try to downplay it.
Why it's so hard to understand ?

quite easy actually... it's simply because while you (not you in particular) come here to say this, you all be whining every single time we wont pick a goon put on waiver next summer... just like you all did last summer...

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03-03-2012, 04:12 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
But the thing is, having a guy like Staubitz has made White grow a few more inches. That's what the presence of a guy like this does. Last time I saw Moen goon it up was when in pre-season he played with some kid named Nielson who had some nerve. but the Martin imbelice didn't like that kid. And Moen returned to his boring self pretty quickly.
Forgot this already ?









and where is the great Nielson now ?

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