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Carey Price: What's he worth?

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:38 PM
  #51
Habsfanatical
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix60 View Post
Maybe you should take a look at Halak's current stats...

Also, I think his post deserve a bit more respect than that. He has the right to not be part of the "believers" in Price, and he explained his point in a well written text. If I were him, getting a reply starting with "LoOOLLL" would be borderline considered an insult.
Maybe you should take a look at Halak's current defense, far and away better then ours..

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03-02-2012, 05:20 PM
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Let me approach this from a different angle. Let us make the assumption that 99% of the fans want Price and consider him elite. This is largely based on comparative statistics (comparison to other goalies). In my mind, the problem with statistics when it pertains to sports is the number of variables that need to be inputted for validity. If there exists a science of sports, that science is incomplete and a work in progress.

Why does a goalie have a great season one year and a terrible one the next? Migration from a trap system? Girlfriend? Child? Alcohol? Defensemen changes? Luck? Subtle changes in play style? All of the above and more.

Whatever the cause(s), fans latch on to wins and statistics as evidence of goalie greatness. I still beg to differ. A great goalie is a different animal altogether. I did not believe in Theodore when he was having his MVP season. I never believed Bryzgalov merited such high esteem. Yet both were considered elite at one point. Or what about Toskala when he was moved to Toronto? Leaf fans were crying tears of joy. And yet to me, all of them are(were) lacking.

If all hockey decisions were made based on statistics, we wouldn't need scouts, we wouldn't need to see the players to have an opinion. Might we perhaps view statistics simply as a tool and go back to the unscientific method of watching and trying to instinctively grasp a sliver of the souls of players?
I based my response on previous success and not stats alone, in addition to team changes. The fact of the matter is for every person such as yourself, that makes a hunch, there is another out there that has a different guess. This is why you don't take a decision as important as Price's future, based on a "feeling" when all other indicators advise against it.

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03-02-2012, 05:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pointed Finger View Post
Let me reiterate that my position is not supported by statistics. Again, I agree that the numbers say he is a number one. One can also state that at 24, his numbers compare well with elite goalies. So yes, ridicule can certainly be a response since all I've posited to counter it is "feeling" based on a historical reference of having watched many elite goalies for 4 decades.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the presumption that the defense this season has caused an aberration from his above average statistics. My opinion is not formulated on watching him give up goals due to poor defense and which cannot be saved. I believe I can differentiate situations where the goalie is "not responsible".

But a great goalie... well a great goalie can do miraculous things and sometimes people are not even aware of how wonderous some saves are or how in tune the goalies can be. There is a reason Price is relatively below average on shootouts, reasons that for me may fall into the suspicion that learned technique has masked the absence of the spirit of a goaltender to defend, protect, to be the final stop. Again, I may be wrong but I just wanted people to entertain the possibility that what they are watching in Price is not necessarily "glorious".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointed Finger View Post
Let me approach this from a different angle. Let us make the assumption that 99% of the fans want Price and consider him elite. This is largely based on comparative statistics (comparison to other goalies). In my mind, the problem with statistics when it pertains to sports is the number of variables that need to be inputted for validity. If there exists a science of sports, that science is incomplete and a work in progress.

Why does a goalie have a great season one year and a terrible one the next? Migration from a trap system? Girlfriend? Child? Alcohol? Defensemen changes? Luck? Subtle changes in play style? All of the above and more.

Whatever the cause(s), fans latch on to wins and statistics as evidence of goalie greatness. I still beg to differ. A great goalie is a different animal altogether. I did not believe in Theodore when he was having his MVP season. I never believed Bryzgalov merited such high esteem. Yet both were considered elite at one point. Or what about Toskala when he was moved to Toronto? Leaf fans were crying tears of joy. And yet to me, all of them are(were) lacking.

If all hockey decisions were made based on statistics, we wouldn't need scouts, we wouldn't need to see the players to have an opinion. Might we perhaps view statistics simply as a tool and go back to the unscientific method of watching and trying to instinctively grasp a sliver of the souls of players?
Well done.

Neutralising any counter-argument by positing your "criticism" as a belief is aces in my book.

I believe you are wrong. I have a gut feeling you'd be the first to whine about the goaltending situation if Price was to be moved and a replacement brought in.

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Old
03-02-2012, 05:44 PM
  #54
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Halak has been huge for the Blues this year...I hate it how people give all the credits for his succes because of the defense.Yes the D is good but there goalie makes the Blues a hard team to beat.

Price is going to end up being a good goalie and he already is but I don't think he's going to be one of the all-time greats like Patrick Roy who he was hyped up to be.Basicly the reason why I never liked him was because he was always shoved down our throats by management and was given the 1 goalie spot on a silver plate

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03-02-2012, 06:23 PM
  #55
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7 years, 40 millions. that would be awesome.

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03-02-2012, 06:28 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by the View Post
Halak has been huge for the Blues this year...I hate it how people give all the credits for his succes because of the defense.Yes the D is good but there goalie makes the Blues a hard team to beat.

Price is going to end up being a good goalie and he already is but I don't think he's going to be one of the all-time greats like Patrick Roy who he was hyped up to be.Basicly the reason why I never liked him was because he was always shoved down our throats by management and was given the 1 goalie spot on a silver plate
Totally agree ..

If you look at his career, he has been given the #1 spot continuously even though he's never earned it. He's been outplayed by his partner every single time.

Halak #1 goalie in AHL in terms of stats ..gets shoved aside so Price can be #1 and get playoff experience.

Halak plays better in training camp and is suppose to be Huet's backup like Carbonneau wanted. Gainey steps in and says you must keep Price in Montreal.

Huet outplays Price, Huet gets shipped out

Halak outplays Price, Halak gets shipped out.

Price may become a great goalie. I personally don't see it. I think what we see is what we get. He is a good/solid goalie who gives up bad goals here and there. He's not a big game playa at the NHL level. Giving him a long term contract when he hasn't won more than 1 playoff round is a mistake in my opinion.

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03-02-2012, 06:33 PM
  #57
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The correct answer is $5.5 a year on a short term deal. Anything longer than 2 years goes into UFA years so his annual cap hit will be $6.5 to $7 a year if he signs for 5 or more years.

Ask the Leafs how it is when your goalies are just plain average, then give thanks every day that the Habs have Price.

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03-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #58
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The correct answer is $5.5 a year on a short term deal. Anything longer than 2 years goes into UFA years so his annual cap hit will be $6.5 to $7 a year if he signs for 5 or more years.

Ask the Leafs how it is when your goalies are just plain average, then give thanks every day that the Habs have Price.
There's no need. We had many plain average goalies before Price.

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03-02-2012, 06:55 PM
  #59
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The good news for the Habs organization is the bad news for the Flyers. While Price's agent is talking up his client in the neighbourhood of 7.5 mill per season, our GM will cough and point to Bryzgalov's ridiculous ball-and-chain contract, along with bloated contracts for DiPietro, Cam Ward, Huet, etc.. Let's hope the market standard for huge contracts has taken a hit, and that Price will settle for a longer term over a bigger amount.

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03-02-2012, 07:04 PM
  #60
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Let him get offer sheeted, see what we can get.

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03-02-2012, 07:41 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
I based my response on previous success and not stats alone, in addition to team changes. The fact of the matter is for every person such as yourself, that makes a hunch, there is another out there that has a different guess. This is why you don't take a decision as important as Price's future, based on a "feeling" when all other indicators advise against it.
Not sure what you mean by "all other factors" that's just not the case man.

Even in the year where Halak played spectacular hockey for us (and he was spectacular) Price really wasn't bad. The team absolutely sucked in front of him. His numbers were very good actually when you look at just how brutal we played in front of him.

The following season Price is spectacular and Halak has an okay season.

This year Price was outplaying Halak and Halak's own backup outplayed him until Ken Hitchcock showed up... then both goalies went absolutely insane and have played incredibly well. Meanwhile Price is sitting behind the greenest, softest defense in the league and still putting up very respectible numbers. Be fair man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the View Post
Halak has been huge for the Blues this year...I hate it how people give all the credits for his succes because of the defense.Yes the D is good but there goalie makes the Blues a hard team to beat.
The Blues defense doesn't deserve ALL the credit but there's no way he's sitting there at a GAA below 2 without Hitch.
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Originally Posted by the View Post
Price is going to end up being a good goalie and he already is but I don't think he's going to be one of the all-time greats like Patrick Roy who he was hyped up to be.Basicly the reason why I never liked him was because he was always shoved down our throats by management and was given the 1 goalie spot on a silver plate
Hating a goalie because he was overhyped doesn't make any sense. The "silver spoon" stuff is silly too. Management went with who they felt would be the best goalie down the road. Last year that was proven out. This year the team falls apart and it comes back into question.

It's this kind of stuff that worries me in terms of the top pick that we might wind up with this year. Is there going to be a backlash when that player doesn't produce like Guy Lafleur? Are we going to accuse him of being given a spot on the team with a silver spoon too? I mean seriously man, the guy has to be Patrick Roy to be a success?

Seriously man, Price has faced more pressure than anyone in this league not named Luongo and he did it at 23 freakin' years old and was spectacular. He's sitting there with the 6th best career save percentage of active goalies currently playing. What more do you want from the guy?

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03-02-2012, 07:45 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by the View Post
Halak has been huge for the Blues this year...I hate it how people give all the credits for his succes because of the defense.Yes the D is good but there goalie makes the Blues a hard team to beat.

Price is going to end up being a good goalie and he already is but I don't think he's going to be one of the all-time greats like Patrick Roy who he was hyped up to be.Basicly the reason why I never liked him was because he was always shoved down our throats by management and was given the 1 goalie spot on a silver plate
Well the defense in front is important. Also another factor to look at is Hitchcock. The king of the defensive system.

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03-02-2012, 07:45 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pointed Finger View Post
Let me reiterate that my position is not supported by statistics. Again, I agree that the numbers say he is a number one. One can also state that at 24, his numbers compare well with elite goalies. So yes, ridicule can certainly be a response since all I've posited to counter it is "feeling" based on a historical reference of having watched many elite goalies for 4 decades.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the presumption that the defense this season has caused an aberration from his above average statistics. My opinion is not formulated on watching him give up goals due to poor defense and which cannot be saved. I believe I can differentiate situations where the goalie is "not responsible".

But a great goalie... well a great goalie can do miraculous things and sometimes people are not even aware of how wonderous some saves are or how in tune the goalies can be. There is a reason Price is relatively below average on shootouts, reasons that for me may fall into the suspicion that learned technique has masked the absence of the spirit of a goaltender to defend, protect, to be the final stop. Again, I may be wrong but I just wanted people to entertain the possibility that what they are watching in Price is not necessarily "glorious".
Hi there, new guy! I'm one of the few guys on this board old enough to remember Dryden and Roy. Both made the most out of their personality types which, ironically, were completely opposite. Dryden was the epitome of cool. He cultivated it as a trademark and his famous stick-leaning pose was a very conscious "You can't touch this" message to the other team. Beyond that, of course, he had the goods. Dude was focused, fast and smart. He also had Lapointe, Savard and Robinson.

Roy was raging intensity. He was like the Bugs Bunny character, Yosemite Sam, where you could actually see steam coming from his ears when he lost. I've never seen anyone so totally, desperately, passionately in lust with winning. He existed in some alternate zone, unknown to most athletes except the most pathological. And on top of all that, the guy was a fantastic athlete. Tim Thomas has a bit of Roy's anger, except he hates democrats slightly more than goals.

But here's the thing: Both of these Hall-Of-Fame goalies had plenty of stupid moments and un-glorious games. I remember plenty of dumb goals on Dryden and games where Roy's mind was elsewhere - it wasn't pretty. Anyone so inclined could create YouTube clips of Dryden and Roy's bad games and make them both look like overrated pretenders. Because you're right - greatness is made of more than numbers, it's one save at a time or one goal at a time. You can see what you want to see in a player; you can define him by his great moments or his average moments. But Dryden and Roy are considered great because balanced against any off-games and mistakes are the images of both men with Stanley Cups. Those championship seasons outweigh everything else and stamp both guys with greatness, because their great play produced great results.

How does this compare to Price? Well, Price is neither Dryden nor Roy. His great moments haven't included a Stanley Cup or even a great playoff run like Halak. He's also not flamboyant; his best games are his coolest and steadiest. He hasn't stolen as many games as other streaky goalies, but he hasn't fallen apart either. It's hard to point to something he's done and say, "That's great!". It's more his consistent quality with a sense of his growing confidence and power. Feelings, in other words. And my feelings are that he's a very good, very steady work in progress who may reach greatness by one of two routes: Either by being consistently dominant as an individual, or by forging a championship season with his team. I do understand people's love for the guy because I can see his potential for greatness, but he's not there yet. But even though his future reputation is fair game for debate, he's still too good in the present to debate getting rid of him.

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03-02-2012, 07:48 PM
  #64
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Well the defense in front is important. Also another factor to look at is Hitchcock. The king of the defensive system.
Look at Halak's before and after numbers with Hitch this season... it's night and day.

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03-02-2012, 07:50 PM
  #65
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I stand by my opinion from the start of the season;

$5.25 million per year/5 years.

I think that's bang on. In 5 years time he will be in his prime and then he can start commanding 7-8 mil per year.

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03-02-2012, 07:55 PM
  #66
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I loved Halak. He's just one year older than Price and can still be tagged as a "Developing" goalie. His playoff run speaks for itself, as does this season. His only weakness seems to be a physical limit of games he can play before losing focus. Imagine having both him and Price, though I know that couldn't happen, so I understand the move. My only grating complaint is (once again) the mismanagement of assets. Halak was a rock star and could have been traded for much, much more at the time. It's now common knowledge that Gauthier never approached certain other teams about Halak, and that we lost out on multiple offers that could've included far better returns than Eller. Other GMs were quoted as being perplexed at why they weren't asked about Halak. Imagine what we could have got from Philly or San Jose at the time.

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03-02-2012, 08:03 PM
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I've been a HFBoards lurker for many years never having felt the need to put in my say since someone would always be of similar mind. But now, no one else seems to think what I'm thinking or is afraid to say it because of a suspicion that they'd be ridiculed or that they would be called a poor fan. I felt compelled to write a post.

I'm a fan of the Canadiens as a team and goalies as a position. I've loved, hated and been ambivalent about many goalies since the 70s. I've loved Tretiak, and Esposito, wondered at the awkward movements of young Dryden, mourned the early loss of Pelle Lindbergh, hoped for Hackett to beat his vertigo to be what he could, laughed in joy at Hasek's flopping saves, marvelled at the brilliance of Roy and Halak in their magical playoff runs... I could go on and on.

But that is just to preface my opinion (which seems to be a lonely one). It's this - I never liked Theodore, and just like Theodore, I don't like Carey Price.

People seem to have a collective unconscious agreement that Price is the Canadiens' goalie now and well into the future. There are threads speculating about how much to pay him and for how long. They talk about the great lateral movement and positioning. They say he is a franchise goalie and franchise goalies are paid top dollar. Statistics are used to validate their claims to his greatness or potential therein. Forgive me but my memory is poor - was Theodore not also assumed to be a great goalie with a great future?
(I do not mean to compare goaltending techniques, only the general consensus of opinion on ability).

What makes me not like Price? I regret I am not supported by the data. The numbers say he is a number one. I only have my gut feeling based on observing his goaltending and perhaps comparing it in my mind to great goalies I have watched in the past. Subconsciously, I was weary of Price, even in his great season last year. Maybe it was the Umberger goals in the Philadelphia series a few years ago that made me turn on him - goals that made my stomach turn and my heart ache for someone else in front of that net. Maybe it was the Boston series before that that had already cemented my opinion.

And again, I am not arguing based on his ability. He obviously has the technique. It's that something you can never put a finger on. And I am certain he doesn't have that "thing". Even if the team was doing well this year, he is not a goalie I want to go to battle for or with.

But now with the team in flux, we want to sign this fellow to a long term deal at superstar wages. It is a mistake. The management of the team made an error in trading Halak instead of riding a tandem to reveal the true identity of the hero in the mask. My wish is that it does not make a second one by rooting us to this particular goalie in an unhealthy financial and performance situation.

My criticism does not come without a recommendation. You may view it as naive. I believe in my heart that we should trade Price while the community at large holds him in high regard.

This is all only my opinion. I may be wrong but no one seems to ever say anything negative about this goalie. I'm wondering why.
Thats the kind of post that make you look bad for several years, but we will forgive you since that was your first post..

Price has everything.. I mean everything.. not only technically but mentally this guy has the perfect attitude to handle that circle MTL is.. I think Price handled the situation with alot of maturity this year despite the lack of structure in front of him and the lousy mind of this team.. We will judge him the day he has a decent team in front of him ready to compete every nights, for now, there is absolutely nothing you can blame on Price, he just cant do all alone.

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03-02-2012, 08:08 PM
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I think that's bang on. In 5 years time he will be in his prime and then he can start commanding 7-8 mil per year.
He is already in his prime.. too bad he has an AHL team playing in front of him.. If he was a Blues or a Bruins, he would be A Vezina winner..

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03-02-2012, 08:10 PM
  #69
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At one time I put price's value at $5.75M/season; now it's seemingly back at somewhere neat $5.3M/season but I'd be down for $5.4M/year for 5 years.

Year 1: $4M
Year 2: $4.5M
Year 3: $5.5M
Year 4: $6.5M
Year 5: $6.5M

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03-02-2012, 08:20 PM
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Not sure what you mean by "all other factors" that's just not the case man.

Even in the year where Halak played spectacular hockey for us (and he was spectacular) Price really wasn't bad. The team absolutely sucked in front of him. His numbers were very good actually when you look at just how brutal we played in front of him.

The following season Price is spectacular and Halak has an okay season.

This year Price was outplaying Halak and Halak's own backup outplayed him until Ken Hitchcock showed up... then both goalies went absolutely insane and have played incredibly well. Meanwhile Price is sitting behind the greenest, softest defense in the league and still putting up very respectible numbers. Be fair man.
You either didn't understand my post or misquoted. In simpler terms, you don't trade a youngster like Price because "you have a feeling" he won't be good even though his past performances and stats say otherwise.

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03-02-2012, 08:21 PM
  #71
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The guy really has earned a big contract. This season has been hard for him to go through given he's been hung out to dry pretty much by the fact we ended up having a shiiite defense. Since he's been with us he's done enough to prove that he's one of the elite goalies in the league and without a doubt, we are not going to get this lucky again so let's not screw around here.

Avg of 6 mil a year would be fair for both sides over a 8 year period IMO. I actually think he could demand more because others would pay it, but in fairness to the franchise, if you want to have good defensemen in front of you, you gotta sacrifice on the max you could get on the market (I think that applies to every player, if they really want a Cup). I just hope he wants to stay here and that he believes we are building a future contender. Gorges, do something!

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03-02-2012, 08:22 PM
  #72
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Thats the kind of post that make you look bad for several years, but we will forgive you since that was your first post..

Price has everything.. I mean everything.. not only technically but mentally this guy has the perfect attitude to handle that circle MTL is.. I think Price handled the situation with alot of maturity this year despite the lack of structure in front of him and the lousy mind of this team.. We will judge him the day he has a decent team in front of him ready to compete every nights, for now, there is absolutely nothing you can blame on Price, he just cant do all alone.
I think you're right. And I think this guy would be an absolute monster if he had guys like Webber or Chara or Lidstrom in front of him. He doesn't have this.

If we ever traded him (as some are suggesting we do) we'd regret it for the rest of his career. I can't see too many goalies (if any) that would do any better than he has for us on this club.

And uh, a little off topic but... we sure could use Ryan McD now. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'... if you know what I'm sayin'.

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03-02-2012, 08:33 PM
  #73
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I would put him on the market and take my chances

this team aint going nowhere for the next 2-3 years, Carey never proved a damn thing in the playofsf, the only time the team had some playoff success he was riding the bench, according to some hes a superstar top elite guy yet the best who could do was lead the team to last place this year.

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03-02-2012, 08:37 PM
  #74
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Best Deal would be:

5.5-5.75 for 5/6 years

But I don't think Price will agree to this kind of deal.

So short term deal: 5.5 for 2 years.

I think He would still be RFA with a 2 years deal right ??

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03-02-2012, 08:42 PM
  #75
Lafleurs Guy
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You either didn't understand my post or misquoted. In simpler terms, you don't trade a youngster like Price because "you have a feeling" he won't be good even though his past performances and stats say otherwise.
Okay, maybe I misread your post... I'll just assume I did.

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