Kopitar had no goals and just one assist in the last five games he played last season. The lone assist came in the game he was hurt, which was also the only game he finished as a plus player.
He's a fine player, but let's at least look at it from a realistic standpoint. He's not elite, but he could be if he applied himself more consistently, which is exactly what Dionne was saying.
What is your defenition of elite? He's a top 30 player in the NHL and bordering along top 10 at a posotion loaded with superstars.
He's a fine player, but let's at least look at it from a realistic standpoint. He's not elite, but he could be if he applied himself more consistently, which is exactly what Dionne was saying.
He is elite and the amazing thing about him is he could be better - and we agree on that
If Kopitar wants to go to the next level...WHICH HE CAN....he needs to be more selfish and follow in the footsteps of Vinny Lecavalier.
Lecavalier wanted to be the passer in his first 4-5 seasons, didn't take very many shots, and alwyas looked pass first. Comes back from the lockout a whole different player. Holding the puck, shooting more. Boom 50+ goals 40 goal seasons.
Kopitar has another gear. He just isn't using it for some reason.
I notice that Bylsma doesn't waist his top scorers on the PK. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Sullivan; none of these guys get used for penalty killing. Conversely, Malkin gets 4 1/2 minutes a game in PP time which is the most of any center in the league. Crosby is gets the 2nd most.
It might sound like a small thing, but it's a microcosm of how a coach views the role of his players. All of us want Kopitar to "drive to the net" more, but it's not always that simple.
I agree with the coaching /system style affecting the players you have. I would love to see a system/coaching change similar to Bylsma's approach and what it would do for players like Kopitar.
kopitar is our best player as of now regardless of his point struggles. my biggest knock on him since his first yrs has been his lack of overall aggression/intensity. i know the guy is trying hard, but i think he could go to the next level if he took some of the nice guy out of his game. it may be too late if he realizes this later in his career. how do you instill a kill first and ask questions later attitude? yes we need to kill other teams!
***doughty is not our best player...i wish he wa$$$$$$$
He is NOT elite. Elite is Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Ovechkin (when he's interested).
Guys that can take over games by themselves. Kopitar is NOT elite.
Kopitar > Giroux, IMO.
He's a great player, but he's never even scored 30 goals. Elite guys come into the league and make an immediate impact. As good as he is, Giroux couldn't do that. His numbers have only jumped handily since the Flyers have essentially tossed defense out the window. Anze has put up great numbers in a defense-first system.
And Kopitar can take games over by himself, we've seen him do it before.
What is your defenition of elite? He's a top 30 player in the NHL and bordering along top 10 at a posotion loaded with superstars.
He has elite potential which he certainly shows several times each season. If he could avoid those twice annual vacations and approach the game more consistently then he might be able to take the next step - and the team would take that next step too.
Everybody has slumps - but they aren't "slumps" when they happen at the same time every year. Anze always starts strong, hits the wall in early-mid November, then rebounds a bit before cooling off again. It happens every year. It's not as though he is snakebit during those streaks - he will go weeks at a time without even getting good chances.
And don't mistake that for me thinking he isn't a very good player, but he is more in the mold of an Alex Kovalev - the "elite" when they want to be group. He always works hard (unlike Kovalev did), but just doesn't seem to have that constant desire to be the best player he can be, and that is where I would define "elite".
I notice that Bylsma doesn't waist his top scorers on the PK. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Sullivan; none of these guys get used for penalty killing. Conversely, Malkin gets 4 1/2 minutes a game in PP time which is the most of any center in the league. Crosby is gets the 2nd most.
This is actually a good hypothesis that needs to be tested. I'd be curious to see the outcome.
Richards has been used on the penalty kill a ton, and for good reason. Hell, even Fraser has been on the penalty kill at times.
Giroux not elite? 75 points in 59 games, had 51 assists and 76 points last season. He's certainly among the best players in the NHL this season, and yes, he too plays a well-rounded hockey game and produces in the playoffs, and he's 24. He's the reason why Philly could afford to lose Richards and Carter and get better in the process.
Giroux not elite? 75 points in 59 games, had 51 assists and 76 points last season. He's certainly among the best players in the NHL this season, and yes, he too plays a well-rounded hockey game and produces in the playoffs, and he's 24. He's the reason why Philly could afford to lose Richards and Carter and get better in the process.
He's doing well again this year, and had a great year last year, for sure. I disagree with the well-rounded part, his defense leaves much to be desired. The point was more that if Giroux is elite, then Kopitar is as well.
Philly didn't get better. They are easily a couple notches below last season.
Giroux not elite? 75 points in 59 games, had 51 assists and 76 points last season. He's certainly among the best players in the NHL this season, and yes, he too plays a well-rounded hockey game and produces in the playoffs, and he's 24. He's the reason why Philly could afford to lose Richards and Carter and get better in the process.
How many NHL forwards are elite, by your standards?
How many NHL forwards are elite, by your standards?
Elite players are those considered among the top 5-10 best in their respective positions. Those who lead their teams offensively and make those around them better are elite caliber players. Giroux is among those types of players along with Malkin, Datsyuk, Toews, Sedin, Stamkos, players who raise their level of play when their team needs them most.
Kopitar can fit into that category if he did some of the things those players have done, which is elevate his game and his team. We have yet to see him do that. Until he does, he's much like a Ribeiro, a great flashy player who puts up impressive numbers during the course of the regular season.
NHL Center Ice is your friend. Watch a couple of Flyers games and tell me that Giroux isn't their go to guy. Ziggy is right, Giroux single handedly made Carter and Richards surplus goods. That's pretty ****ing elite if you ask me.
Playoff stats (where it really ****ing matters):
2009-2010 - 10 goals, 11 assists totaling 21pts in 23 games played.
2010-2011 - 1 goal, 11 assists totaling 12pts in 11 games played.
Players are affected tremendously by their surroundings. What Kind of numbers would Kopitar be putting up right now if he played for the Flyers?
Look how much the numbers of Backstrom, Semin, and Ovechkin fell off when they went to a more defensive minded system.
Lecavalier put up 108 pts in 06-07, and 92 pts in 07-08. Other than that he's never hit the 80 point mark in his entire career. Is he elite? I'd ask the same of all these: Henrik Sedin, Eric Staal, Getzlaf, B. Richards ect. How do we know Giroux won't end up like them? (Players who usually average around 70/80 points, but have a couple break out years)
How do we know Kopitar's break out isn't in front of him? The Sedins didn't break out till their late 20's when the whole team around them improved.
Even Strength Point Per Game Averages of the top 10 NHL scorers last year:
D. Sedin..... .76 (+30)
MSL .......... .7 (even)
Perry ........ .76 (+9)
H Sedin ..... .72 (+26)
Stamkos .... .67 (+3)
Iginla ........ .68 (even)
Ovechkin ... .77 (+24)
Selenne ..... .63 (+26)
Zetterberg . .61 (-1)
B. Richards . .66 (+1)
Kopitar ...... .72 (+25)
^That's a tremendous stat. Anze was one of the top players in the game last year at even strength. He didn't get to pad his stats on the PP, that's why his overall numbers weren't eye popping. It's also amazing when you consider Kopitar played for far and away the worst offensive team of any of those players. That +25 also looks pretty damn good when you consider the Kings 5on5 F/A ratio was only 1.05. The Sedins put up a similar +/- but the team they played for had a 1.32 5on5 FA ratio. What kind of numbers would Anze have put up last year if he played for the Canucks?
Kopitar is having a "bad" year, and he's still going to put up 70 points. Which is about what all the other player I mentioned (Lecavalier, Staal, Getzlaf, ect.) put up during thier "bad" years. The difference is that Anze is coming off a season ending injury, gets used in an overly defensive role, plays for one worst offenses in modern NHL history, and has the least productive supporting cast in the entire NHL.
I'm tired of Anze getting thrown under the bus around here and blamed for the teams problems. Even the top guys in the league are affected substantially based on their surroundings year-to-year. In 08-09, Malkin was scoring at an 80 point pace, the Penguins were 27-25-0-5, and out of a playoff spot before Bylsma took over; they went on to win the Stanley Cu,p and Malkin finished the year with 113pts; the most in the NHL.
There's a lot of problems with the team this year, but Kopitar has done his part more than any other player not named Quick or Mitchell, and considering the circumstances, what Kopitar has done is pretty impressive.
Players are affected tremendously by their surroundings. What Kind of numbers would Kopitar be putting up right now if he played for the Flyers?
Look how much the numbers of Backstrom, Semin, and Ovechkin fell off when they went to a more defensive minded system.
Lecavalier put up 108 pts in 06-07, and 92 pts in 07-08. Other than that he's never hit the 80 point mark in his entire career. Is he elite? I'd ask the same of all these: Henrik Sedin, Eric Staal, Getzlaf, B. Richards ect. How do we know Giroux won't end up like them? (Players who usually average around 70/80 points, but have a couple break out years)
How do we know Kopitar's break out isn't in front of him? The Sedins didn't break out till their late 20's when the whole team around them improved.
Even Strength Point Per Game Averages of the top 10 NHL scorers last year:
D. Sedin..... .76 (+30)
MSL .......... .7 (even)
Perry ........ .76 (+9)
H Sedin ..... .72 (+26)
Stamkos .... .67 (+3)
Iginla ........ .68 (even)
Ovechkin ... .77 (+24)
Selenne ..... .63 (+26)
Zetterberg . .61 (-1)
B. Richards . .66 (+1)
Kopitar ...... .72 (+25)
^That's a tremendous stat. Anze was one of the top players in the game last year at even strength. He didn't get to pad his stats on the PP, that's why his overall numbers weren't eye popping. It's also amazing when you consider Kopitar played for far and away the worst offensive team of any of those players. That +25 also looks pretty damn good when you consider the Kings 5on5 F/A ratio was only 1.05. The Sedins put up a similar +/- but the team they played for had a 1.32 5on5 FA ratio. What kind of numbers would Anze have put up last year if he played for the Canucks?
Kopitar is having a "bad" year, and he's still going to put up 70 points. Which is about what all the other player I mentioned (Lecavalier, Staal, Getzlaf, ect.) put up during thier "bad" years. The difference is that Anze is coming off a season ending injury, gets used in an overly defensive role, plays for one worst offenses in modern NHL history, and has the least productive supporting cast in the entire NHL.
I'm tired of Anze getting thrown under the bus around here and blamed for the teams problems. Even the top guys in the league are affected substantially based on their surroundings year-to-year. In 08-09, Malkin was scoring at an 80 point pace, the Penguins were 27-25-0-5, and out of a playoff spot before Bylsma took over; they went on to win the Stanley Cu,p and Malkin finished the year with 113pts; the most in the NHL.
There's a lot of problems with the team this year, but Kopitar has done his part more than any other player not named Quick or Mitchell, and considering the circumstances, what Kopitar has done is pretty impressive.
I'm not saying Kopitar sucks, I'm just saying he's not elite.
Malkin is without question an elite player, along with Nik Lidstrom. These guys have won the Stanley Cup.
Maybe we're a little harsh on Kopitar, maybe not. Either way he disappears in awful lot of games.
He has elite potential which he certainly shows several times each season. If he could avoid those twice annual vacations and approach the game more consistently then he might be able to take the next step - and the team would take that next step too.
Everybody has slumps - but they aren't "slumps" when they happen at the same time every year. Anze always starts strong, hits the wall in early-mid November, then rebounds a bit before cooling off again. It happens every year. It's not as though he is snakebit during those streaks - he will go weeks at a time without even getting good chances.
And don't mistake that for me thinking he isn't a very good player, but he is more in the mold of an Alex Kovalev - the "elite" when they want to be group. He always works hard (unlike Kovalev did), but just doesn't seem to have that constant desire to be the best player he can be, and that is where I would define "elite".
That's fair. I think Kopitar lacks the throat slitting edge to his game that makes him have to be on top. The kind of edge that makes him murder everyone in his way to the net. Kobe Bryant type guy. Kind of like Mike Richards.
I think the gaolless streaks are obviously the same issue that haunts every aspect of the Kings roster every year. Over abuse
Unless you watch every single Flyers game, it's a good bet that I watch at least as many of them as you do.
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Watch a couple of Flyers games and tell me that Giroux isn't their go to guy.
Being a go to guy does not automatically make you elite. And yes, he is their go to guy and his offensive play is great. He is an enjoyable player to watch. Apart from some silly things he likes to do in defense. How often he does that? More often than Kopitar, I would say. But that is only my opinion. When Kopitar misses an assignment I register that automatically and even replay it couple of times to see what happened. When Giroux misses a defensive assignment I don't find it particularly strange. I am not saying he is terrible in defense - before someone puts those words in my mouth.
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Playoff stats (where it really ****ing matters):
2009-2010 - 10 goals, 11 assists totaling 21pts in 23 games played.
2010-2011 - 1 goal, 11 assists totaling 12pts in 11 games played.
Oh, so judging elite players by points is ok, as long as it's playoffs? Good to know, thanks. Ok, let's try...
Kopitar 6GP, 2 goals, 3 assists. Yeah, that is much worse scoring pace. Giroux's career playoff pace is 0.325 goals per game, Kopitar coul barely keep 0.33 goals. Do I hear sampling size problem from somewhere? Well, it wasn't me who came up with this in first place.
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Elite players are those considered among the top 5-10 best in their respective positions.
By "respective position" do you mean "center" or "forward"? If it's center, then you are saying that there are 50 elite players in NHL? That is... a lot. We have completely different standards. I am thinking more like 5 elite NHL players, maybe 10. And no, Giroux is not among them. If it's 50, then both Giroux and Kopitar are there.
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Those who lead their teams offensively
Kopitar this season? Check. Kopitar last season? Check. Kopitar 2009/10? Check. Kopitar 2008/09? Check. Kopitar 2007/08? Check. Kopitar 2006/07? Booooo. 61 points in 72 games.
Giroux this season? Check. Giroux last season? Check. Giroux 2009/10? 47 points in 82 games just wasn't enough for top 3. Giroux 2008/09? Nah.
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and make those around them better are elite caliber players.
I say Kopitar makes players around him better IF you say that Giroux makes players around him better. I would say that there are 150+ such players in NHL. But I must say that I don't believe in this expression. It's too subjective to decide when someone makes players around him better. I guess it could make an interesting discussion:
- how many of such players are in NHL?
- are there also players who make their team mates worse?
But it's almost off topic...
Unless you watch every single Flyers game, it's a good bet that I watch at least as many of them as you do.
Being a go to guy does not automatically make you elite. And yes, he is their go to guy and his offensive play is great. He is an enjoyable player to watch. Apart from some silly things he likes to do in defense. How often he does that? More often than Kopitar, I would say. But that is only my opinion. When Kopitar misses an assignment I register that automatically and even replay it couple of times to see what happened. When Giroux misses a defensive assignment I don't find it particularly strange. I am not saying he is terrible in defense - before someone puts those words in my mouth.
Oh, so judging elite players by points is ok, as long as it's playoffs? Good to know, thanks. Ok, let's try...
Kopitar 6GP, 2 goals, 3 assists. Yeah, that is much worse scoring pace. Giroux's career playoff pace is 0.325 goals per game, Kopitar coul barely keep 0.33 goals. Do I hear sampling size problem from somewhere? Well, it wasn't me who came up with this in first place.
By "respective position" do you mean "center" or "forward"? If it's center, then you are saying that there are 50 elite players in NHL? That is... a lot. We have completely different standards. I am thinking more like 5 elite NHL players, maybe 10. And no, Giroux is not among them. If it's 50, then both Giroux and Kopitar are there.
Kopitar this season? Check. Kopitar last season? Check. Kopitar 2009/10? Check. Kopitar 2008/09? Check. Kopitar 2007/08? Check. Kopitar 2006/07? Booooo. 61 points in 72 games.
Giroux this season? Check. Giroux last season? Check. Giroux 2009/10? 47 points in 82 games just wasn't enough for top 3. Giroux 2008/09? Nah.
I say Kopitar makes players around him better IF you say that Giroux makes players around him better. I would say that there are 150+ such players in NHL. But I must say that I don't believe in this expression. It's too subjective to decide when someone makes players around him better. I guess it could make an interesting discussion:
- how many of such players are in NHL?
- are there also players who make their team mates worse?
But it's almost off topic...
Thank you.. Philly fans are very similar to the fans of Canadian teams imo
Maybe we're a little harsh on Kopitar, maybe not. Either way he disappears in awful lot of games.
It's just the nature of the beast at this level. The competition is so high that no one can stand out every night. I see games everyday where top players look just average or unnoticeable.
Kopitar needs to play with more energy, but I think coaching has done a poor job with him. It's not a coincidence that every player who comes here sees their production drop, while everyone who leaves suddenly finds a scoring touch.
It's just the nature of the beast at this level. The competition is so high that no one can stand out every night. I see games everyday where top players look just average or unnoticeable.
Kopitar needs to play with more energy, but I think coaching has done a poor job with him. It's not a coincidence that every player who comes here sees their production drop, while everyone who leaves suddenly finds a scoring touch.
When Pittsburgh was playing Dallas the other night, I was actually yelling at Malkin. I don't watch a whole lot of Pens games but that was the worst display of defense by a forward in a while. Watching some of the replays, I realized it wasn't his laziness, but the fact that he is always thinking offense. Even in the defensive zone when they were pinned he was trying to find a way to spring a counterattack. A lot of the team was doing it. It's their game plan, and it has more to do with player production than anything else.
Malkin is a world-class offensive talent, and I'm not saying Anze is up on his level in that regard. But if you switched their teams, I'm pretty certain Kopi would outscore him.
When Pittsburgh was playing Dallas the other night, I was actually yelling at Malkin. I don't watch a whole lot of Pens games but that was the worst display of defense by a forward in a while. Watching some of the replays, I realized it wasn't his laziness, but the fact that he is always thinking offense. Even in the defensive zone when they were pinned he was trying to find a way to spring a counterattack. A lot of the team was doing it. It's their game plan, and it has more to do with player production than anything else.
Malkin is a world-class offensive talent, and I'm not saying Anze is up on his level in that regard. But if you switched their teams, I'm pretty certain Kopi would outscore him.
If Jordan Staal can score 30 goals playing mostly third line duties for the majority of the season Kopitar can score 50. The fact that Staal scored 30 is very telling.
