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Too many second-line centers: Worst than ever?

View Poll Results: So, who do you keep?
Desharnais 93 77.50%
Plekanec 83 69.17%
Eller 94 78.33%
Leblanc 93 77.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-04-2012, 09:37 AM
  #76
Fozz
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Considering that Plekanec is playing with White and Geoffrion, I would argue that this team has not enough 2nd line wingers to play with all it's 2nd line centers.

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Old
03-04-2012, 09:40 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Considering that Plekanec is playing with White and Geoffrion, I would argue that this team has not enough 2nd line wingers to play with all it's 2nd line centers.
Right on !

this team needs better wingers and d-men.

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03-04-2012, 09:43 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Considering that Plekanec is playing with White and Geoffrion, I would argue that this team has not enough 2nd line wingers to play with all it's 2nd line centers.
Geoffrion and White can be considered 3rd line wingers. Plekanec hasn't played well enough to earn a spot on the top 2 lines and the Habs want to see what they have in Desharnais and Eller for next season. We need to think long-term and big picture and not just take everything at face value.

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Old
03-04-2012, 09:48 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Geoffrion and White can be considered 3rd line wingers. Plekanec hasn't played well enough to earn a spot on the top 2 lines and the Habs want to see what they have in Desharnais and Eller for next season. We need to think long-term and big picture and not just take everything at face value.
Plekanec's had a terrible year, I know many will point to his many linemates this year but I feel that's mainly on his shoulders. He just hasn't been good enough this year, his year is very similar to the one he had a few years ago where nothing worked.

Habs better pray this is just an aberration and not a trend...

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Old
03-04-2012, 09:58 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Geoffrion and White can be considered 3rd line wingers.
No they can't, they're both fourth liners. For a player of that type to be considered a 3rd liner, he should be at least as good as Moen, who's a high end 4th liner or a good 3rd liner depending of the built of the team. More of a 3rd liner on a team that follows the 2 scoring line-1 checking line-1 energy line model (wich isn't really common anymore, especially for good teams) but can fill in fine on a couple of lines due to his defensive abilities.


Last edited by EllertoKostitsynGoal: 03-04-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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Old
03-04-2012, 10:05 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by FiveForDrawingBlood View Post
Him, Leblanc and I thought Blunder was good playing with Eller, those 3 would make great energy line.
Blunden is the exactly type of player you don't pair guys like Eller and Leblanc with if you want them to devellop well. He's a fourth liner and not even a particularly good one.

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Old
03-04-2012, 10:13 AM
  #82
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Bourque is 3rd line at his best. Staubitz, White, Blunden, Darche, 4th. We have no 2nd-liners for Plex, our most complete ctr at this stage.

Our draft choice should be in Hamilton at least 1 season, at least. Maybe Leblanc too. Get a real ****-kicker 4th line guy; go with Plex, Eller, DD; or move DD to someone's wing, bring up Leblanc?

Let the kids develop where they can make mistakes, learn and perfect their game, get ice time and learn all 3 zones / aspects of being a ctr.

But of course this is the Habs, we do things different...

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03-04-2012, 10:29 AM
  #83
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I'll tell you guys the major problem. Desharnais' size requires him to have our two big wingers, Cole and Pacioretty, leaving nobody for Plekanec. So you have to decide, what do you want?

You can't keep our existing top 3 centers, complain we don't have enough winger depth, and then not want to trade Plekanec to diversify our offense. We won't get anything for anyone else.

You have to make a choice

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Old
03-04-2012, 10:31 AM
  #84
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I've said it a few times now, my ideal line-up next year (top-3 lines)

Patches - DD - Cole
RAY WHITNEY - Pleks - Gio
Bourque - Eller - Moen/Leblanc (or Yaku/Grigs if we draft them...)

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Old
03-04-2012, 10:33 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
I'll tell you guys the major problem. Desharnais' size requires him to have our two big wingers, Cole and Pacioretty, leaving nobody for Plekanec. So you have to decide, what do you want?

You can't keep our existing top 3 centers, complain we don't have enough winger depth, and then not want to trade Plekanec to diversify our offense. We won't get anything for anyone else.

You have to make a choice
1- NO. Play him with MaxPac + another winger (not Gionta) , and he will be fine.... But anyway, his wingers will always be bigger than him, don't you think ?

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03-04-2012, 10:41 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Why do people say this as if they have the ability to see into the future. Frankly we don't know if they will get better, and if they do, we don't know how much better they will get. I heard the same about Higgins, Lapierre, Latendresse, AK, etc...
because some people have an understanding of athletic development


nothing is a given, and certainly some talented young athletes can/do "fall of the map".


but consider your own examples...

all 3 did infact improve greatly from when they were 22 (Eller's age).

its also somewhat telling that the 3 examples you used, while they did improve, saw their progression as athletes negatively impacted by attitude/behaviour/maturity issues.

Both Eller and Desharnais are, from every possible indication, extremmely professional in their approach to their careers, both on and off the ice. That kind of maturity is a huge factor in positive dedvelopment.

to suggest that it is more reasonable to expect neither player to improve than the opposite, is, imo, revealing of a very poor understanding of how athletes develop/progress, and of what attributes/personality traits are most directly tied to positive development.

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03-04-2012, 10:42 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I've said it a few times now, my ideal line-up next year (top-3 lines)

Patches - DD - Cole
RAY WHITNEY - Pleks - Gio
Bourque - Eller - Moen/Leblanc (or Yaku/Grigs if we draft them...)
Phoenix has great management (probably one of the best GM in the league), they'll find a way to keep him. Love him though, would be a great addition to any team.

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03-04-2012, 10:43 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I've said it a few times now, my ideal line-up next year (top-3 lines)

Patches - DD - Cole
RAY WHITNEY - Pleks - Gio
Bourque - Eller - Moen/Leblanc (or Yaku/Grigs if we draft them...)
Patches - DD - Cole
Jagr - Pleks - Bourque
Moen/Leblanc - Eller - Gio


that's how i'd roll...

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Old
03-04-2012, 10:51 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
because some people have an understanding of athletic development


nothing is a given, and certainly some talented young athletes can/do "fall of the map".


but consider your own examples...

all 3 did infact improve greatly from when they were 22 (Eller's age).

its also somewhat telling that the 3 examples you used, while they did improve, saw their progression as athletes negatively impacted by attitude/behaviour/maturity issues.

Both Eller and Desharnais are, from every possible indication, extremmely professional in their approach to their careers, both on and off the ice. That kind of maturity is a huge factor in positive dedvelopment.

to suggest that it is more reasonable to expect neither player to improve than the opposite, is, imo, revealing of a very poor understanding of how athletes develop/progress, and of what attributes/personality traits are most directly tied to positive development.
OK, they will get better. Because, every hard working, good natured player gets better . Odds are they will get better, but to act like it's a forgone conclusion is ridiculous especially with this franchise where player progression/growth is often stunted.

I heard Weber would get better as well. He hasn't. My point is, you can't just say a player will get better because they're young, have a solid head on their shoulders and are playing well.

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03-04-2012, 10:52 AM
  #90
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Before when we had cammalleri and AK we were still losing and people would say we need a #1 center...now we have good centers but we need firstly good wingers?

this team needs #1 center AND good wingers. (DD, plekanec, eller not #1 centers)

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03-04-2012, 11:03 AM
  #91
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
OK, they will get better. Because, every hard working, good natured player gets better . Odds are they will get better, but to act like it's a forgone conclusion is ridiculous especially with this franchise where player progression/growth is often stunted.

I heard Weber would get better as well. He hasn't. My point is, you can't just say a player will get better because they're young, have a solid head on their shoulders and are playing well.


weber- 22 years old.

yeah, i guess your right, PERFECT example of how a young player with potential clearly amounted to nothing and is now over the hill....


look, i know that these days, instant gratification is the name of the game. the simple reality is that athletes who reach a very high level of performance in their early 20's are the exception, not the rule.

yes, the combination of greater & earlier "professional" training, and a cap system which encourages teams to ice young/cheap players, has made it easier for highly skilled young players to make bigger/quicker impact.

but that doesn't change the reality that for most athletes, 20-25 is still a huge developmental curve, especially in terms of adapting to the speed/pace/size of the professional game.


"Odds are that they will get better"... exactly. and in the case of 2 specific individuals who have shown very positive maturity & attitude at every level, the odds are about as good as it gets.

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Old
03-04-2012, 11:27 AM
  #92
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Desharnais...best passer on the team!!!

Desharnais makes plays continuously for Cole and Pacioretty. He is too valuable
to think of trading him or playing him differently. I believe we shouldn't change
by far the best line on the team. We need to strength our second line for now.
Desharnais has tremendous passing ability...great speed...should continue with
Cole and Patch.
I believe the habs will be picking...second or third overall. If Columbus keeps
Nash...they may pass on Yakupov in order to select Grigorenko a center...to play
with Nash. The habs can use Yakupov to play alongside of Plekanek and Gionta.

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03-04-2012, 11:45 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post


weber- 22 years old.

yeah, i guess your right, PERFECT example of how a young player with potential clearly amounted to nothing and is now over the hill....


look, i know that these days, instant gratification is the name of the game. the simple reality is that athletes who reach a very high level of performance in their early 20's are the exception, not the rule.

yes, the combination of greater & earlier "professional" training, and a cap system which encourages teams to ice young/cheap players, has made it easier for highly skilled young players to make bigger/quicker impact.

but that doesn't change the reality that for most athletes, 20-25 is still a huge developmental curve, especially in terms of adapting to the speed/pace/size of the professional game.


"Odds are that they will get better"... exactly. and in the case of 2 specific individuals who have shown very positive maturity & attitude at every level, the odds are about as good as it gets.
OMG. I never said he won't get better or that he's over the hill. Weber did not get better this year. Not all athletes get better, that's my point. You can't argue that. You can't count on all players to get better "next year".

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03-04-2012, 11:54 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
the midget is gone if I was Gm while he has some value

Eller and Leblanc shoud be our 2 centers

wtf did we draft Leblanc to play 4th line minutes ?

the dude has solid hockey sense

Pleks and DD moving forward are done with me

how many more Plek years are we going to go with the same result

the midget has no place on the top 6 with any good team which I would like to be one one day , he is just a filler for now
I don't think I've ever heard a more retarded opinion. You're seriously challenging PatofQC for the worst poster award.

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03-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #95
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Plekanec need bigger wingers

Desharnais is a pure playmaker that we need to keep.

If we pick the 1st overall i say why don't we trade it !!

Montréal Canadiens

1st overall
Yannick Weber
Mark Macmillan

VS

Florida Panthers

Jonathan Huberdeau
Keaton Ellerby
Colby Robak

then Trade Eller Gionta and Palushaj + picks to get a real top 6 !!

one of Marleau Iginla Brown Ryan etc.

Pacioretty Desharnais Cole
Bourque Plekanec ?
Leblanc Huberdeau Gallagher
Staubitz White Moen

Markov Subban
Gorges Ellerby
Kaberle Emelin
Diaz St-Denis

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03-04-2012, 12:06 PM
  #96
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Honestly, the best time to have traded Plek was at the trade deadline. I'm sure we could have yielded something like Radulov rights or mid first or something good. Yet, alot of people in here were crying about how valuable Pleks is and he should mentor the top pick, blah blah.

I'd say trade Pleks and keep Deshairnes and Eller. Yeah, it would tough for a few season, but we're one of the least skilled teams in the league. So it's not like we're going to win a cup anytime soon. Just let those three develop along the way.

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03-04-2012, 12:09 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Honestly, the best time to have traded Plek was at the trade deadline. I'm sure we could have yielded something like Radulov rights or mid first or something good. Yet, alot of people in here were crying about how valuable Pleks is and he should mentor the top pick, blah blah.

I'd say trade Pleks and keep Deshairnes and Eller. Yeah, it would tough for a few season, but we're one of the least skilled teams in the league. So it's not like we're going to win a cup anytime soon. Just let those three develop along the way.

As I said when that was discussed before, Radulov was not going to return to North America to play for a lotto team, and if we trade Plekanec we are basically guaranteeing ourselves to be bad for at least another year.

For a team like that Radulov's rights are less valuable than a 2nd, because he has all the cards and has no incentive to return to the NHL unless he's going to get his way.

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03-04-2012, 12:12 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Why do people say this as if they have the ability to see into the future. Frankly we don't know if they will get better, and if they do, we don't know how much better they will get. I heard the same about Higgins, Lapierre, Latendresse, AK, etc...
DD has only played 100 or so games in the NHL. It's very improbable that he doesn't get better. Actually, if you look at his statline in the last 40 or so game, you'll realize that he's on a noticably upward trend. 70+ points from DD next year if Cole and Patches are healthy is very realistic IMO.

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03-04-2012, 12:14 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Jake5 View Post
he certainly can be depended on in a role appropriate to his abilities (#2 Center playing a lot on the PK)
he's been asked to do too much for too long on this team and would benefit greatly from a legit #1C to play behind and take a lot of the offensive load off his shoulders
Besides that point, he sure as hell could use some wingers that can score goals like Pacioretty and Cole. Sure Gionta is out with an injury (he scored 29 goals playing wing with Gomez) and filler guys like Darche and Moen are out as well, but who really expects Plekanec to be offensive when White and Geoffrion are either missing passes or losing battles in the corners, in the offensive zone? Watching him out there last night, he looked like he was getting frustrated the entire time.

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03-04-2012, 12:16 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Honestly, the best time to have traded Plek was at the trade deadline. I'm sure we could have yielded something like Radulov rights or mid first or something good. Yet, alot of people in here were crying about how valuable Pleks is and he should mentor the top pick, blah blah.

I'd say trade Pleks and keep Deshairnes and Eller. Yeah, it would tough for a few season, but we're one of the least skilled teams in the league. So it's not like we're going to win a cup anytime soon. Just let those three develop along the way.
I would rather trade him in the off-season. He isn't retiring or on an expiring contract so I doubt if there would of been that much of a premium paid for him then. If we wait for draft day hopefully we can trade him fr a 1st (either Aberg or Hertl) plus a decent NHL ready prospect or a under 23 roster player would be good.

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