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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VII

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Old
03-04-2012, 02:52 PM
  #76
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You are cup-counting. That's not how to evaluate players or coaches.

His Jack Adams record suggests that he's the best coach in the league over his career.
And we all know that the Jack Adams is not useful in that regard. The truth is, coaching is a results based job. Trotz may be the best coach without a cup for all we know. But. There is no evidence to support that he can get results.

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03-04-2012, 02:53 PM
  #77
Rob Scuderi
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Pittsburgh selects LW Dave Trottier and RW Anders Hedberg

Link to Madarcand's bio on Trottier:http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=186

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Old
03-04-2012, 03:16 PM
  #78
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
And we all know that the Jack Adams is not useful in that regard. The truth is, coaching is a results based job. Trotz may be the best coach without a cup for all we know. But. There is no evidence to support that he can get results.
Coaching is about what you get out of the players you are given. Those are the results that matter, and those are the results that get the Jack Adams trophy recognizes.

The success of a team is ultimately determined by the talent of the players. Coaches that win Cups happen to be lucky that they have talented players.


In our 1st play-off series this year, the other team's coach did an amazing job to match up against us. He certainly did a better job than I did, but we still swept them. I must be great. I can be the better coach even when I'm not the better coach...

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03-04-2012, 03:37 PM
  #79
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Coaching is about what you get out of the players you are given. Those are the results that matter, and those are the results that get the Jack Adams trophy recognizes.
The Jack Adams recognizes regular season performance vs expectations.

I agree that coaching is getting the most out of your players. There are a lot of modern coaches who have gotten their teams farther in the playoffs than they probably should have. Trotz isn't one of them.

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03-04-2012, 03:47 PM
  #80
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WE are pleased to announce our 6th D: Jack Portland

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Old
03-04-2012, 03:51 PM
  #81
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WE are pleased to announce our 6th D: Jack Portland
Jack Portland is a nice selection here. I've been sold on as a #6 defenceman by 70's via PM. Be sure to put a link of his MLD bio on your roster page.

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03-04-2012, 03:56 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Jack Portland is a nice selection here. I've been sold on as a #6 defenceman by 70's via PM. Be sure to put a link of his MLD bio on your roster page.
Yeah...I'm surprised he's the first guy of the MLD defenseman that were discovered and researched last draft to make the jump, but I see him as a definite #6 here.

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Old
03-04-2012, 04:01 PM
  #83
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We talk about positional versatility, but Erie Otters... player... Connor Crisp may be ATD-quality in that regard! Poor kid was forced into net after the team's lone goaltender and starter hurt himself. Just before the game, back-up Devin Williams failed concussion baseline testing so he couldn't dress.

Now all Crisp needs to do is play a game on the blueline and we'd have the first C/D/G in modern history. Although he did get blitzed 13-4 and only has five goals on the year, so I don't know how good he is any of those positions.

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03-04-2012, 04:02 PM
  #84
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
We talk about positional versatility, but Erie Otters... player... Connor Crisp may be ATD-quality in that regard! Poor kid was forced into net after the team's lone goaltender and starter hurt himself. Just before the game, back-up Devin Williams failed concussion baseline testing so he couldn't dress.

Now all Crisp needs to do is play a game on the blueline and we'd have the first C/D/G in modern history.
I wouldn't be surprise if Lester Patrick played at least a few game as a forward in his life, making him the first F/D/G in history.

Oups: read too fast. MODERN history.

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03-04-2012, 04:09 PM
  #85
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I wouldn't be surprise if Lester Patrick played at least a few game as a forward in his life, making him the first F/D/G in history.

Oups: read too fast. MODERN history.
I guess this begs the question though: if you're Erie, why not dress Crisp as goalie, pull him for the entirety of the game, and use two skaters to just stand in front of the net? You'd have 1 defenceman and 3 forwards to use during play anyway.

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Old
03-04-2012, 04:21 PM
  #86
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Jack Adams recognizes regular season performance vs expectations.
That's not actually what it recognizes, but even if it did, the best coaches are the ones who can get their teams to perform better than expcted.

The Jack Adams recognized th best coach.

Quote:
I agree that coaching is getting the most out of your players.
That is one of Trotz's biggest strengths as a coach....

Quote:
There are a lot of modern coaches who have gotten their teams farther in the playoffs than they probably should have.
There are lots of coaches who happened to be on the bench when their teams went farther than they should have. How much impact the coach made is pretty debatable.

Coaches win because their teams are good enough to win.

Quote:
Trotz isn't one of them.
Just making the play-offs was farther than a lot of Trotz's Nashville teams should have gone.

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03-04-2012, 04:24 PM
  #87
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I wouldn't be surprise if Lester Patrick played at least a few game as a forward in his life, making him the first F/D/G in history.
Lester was a full-time rover in th NHA, wasn't he?

Also, it looks like he was sometimes a rover in the PCHA and WHL as well.

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03-04-2012, 04:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Lester was a full-time rover in th NHA, wasn't he?

Also, it looks like he was sometimes a rover in the PCHA and WHL as well.
Sure, rover is kind of the equivalent of a centre, but I'm wondering if he ever played wing? Probably a few time.

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03-04-2012, 04:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
And we all know that the Jack Adams is not useful in that regard. The truth is, coaching is a results based job. Trotz may be the best coach without a cup for all we know. But. There is no evidence to support that he can get results.
He got the results in the regular season, and Dreakmur attempted to shore up his one weakness with an assistant who has won in his career. I think what he's done with his situation is about the best he could have hoped for.

He also has had championship teams in the past in other leagues. If you do not think they count for anything, then you must also discount all of Bob Johnson's success in the NCAA as well.. and then he becomes no better, or perhaps even worse than Art Ross as a coach.

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03-04-2012, 04:38 PM
  #90
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I think Trotz is ATD-worthy coach. He has a system and makes the players follow it. What more do you want?

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03-04-2012, 04:51 PM
  #91
TheDevilMadeMe
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I think Trotz is ATD-worthy coach. He has a system and makes the players follow it. What more do you want?
There is a big difference between getting a young hard working team to overachieve and getting a talent laden team to come together and win championships. There are countless examples of coaches in history who were great at the former but needed to be replaced for the team to succeed in the playoffs. Right now, Trotz is great at the former, unproven at the latter

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03-04-2012, 04:57 PM
  #92
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
There is a big difference between getting a young hard working team to overachieve and getting a talent laden team to come together and win championships.
What's the difference then?

Quote:
There are countless examples of coaches in history who were great at the former but needed to be replaced for the team to succeed in the playoffs. Right now, Trotz is great at the former, unproven at the latter
Who are those coaches?

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03-04-2012, 05:01 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
It's rare I'm saying this, but I'm hoping the 12 GM's in front of me take a throng of players on my list. I have so many players I want at so many position, that I'm hoping some people will make my selection a bit easier.
He is one of the best coaches in the world, and has been for nearly a decade. Look at the laundry list of star players Nashville has lost over the seasons and he always has that team trucking, year after year.

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Old
03-04-2012, 05:05 PM
  #94
Dreakmur
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He is one of the best coaches in the world, and has been for nearly a decade. Look at the laundry list of star players Nashville has lost over the seasons and he always has that team trucking, year after year.
Exactly. As I've said many times, coaching is about what you get out of the talent you are given. Barry Trotz always gets a lot out of a little.

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03-04-2012, 05:06 PM
  #95
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What's the difference then?



Who are those coaches?
Handling the egos and ice time of star players, handling adjustments over a 7 game series of facing the same opponent.

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Old
03-04-2012, 05:08 PM
  #96
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He is one of the best coaches in the world, and has been for nearly a decade. Look at the laundry list of star players Nashville has lost over the seasons and he always has that team trucking, year after year.
The Stanley Cup had been awarded for 120 years. Being "one of the best" for a single decade isn't necessary ATD worthy.

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Old
03-04-2012, 05:10 PM
  #97
EagleBelfour
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Jiri Bubla

Height: 5'11''
Weight: 200 lbs
Position: Defense
Shoots: Right

WEC-A All-Star Team (1978, 1979)
WEC-A Best Defenceman Award (1979)

Czechoslovakian Hockey League:

SeasonsGPGAPTSPIM
1352092190282111
No Data:
Penalty minutes: 1968-1977


Top-10 Scoring (5th, 12th)
Top-10 Assist (2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 9th)

Top-5 Scoring Among Defenceman (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd)
Top-5 Goalscoring Among Defenceman (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd)
Top-5 Assist Among Defenceman (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)

[...]

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post45507901
(Updated version of Hawkey Town 18 biography, with basically more statistics and quotes)

------

My take on Jiri Bubla:


Offensively: I'm extremely impress by Jiri Bubla offensive results in the Czech league. For someone who was deemed a two years wonder in the Czech league, he ended up an impressive 4 time as the best scoring defenceman in the Czech league, over Jan Suchy, Frantisek Pospisil, Oldrich Machac and another offensive defenceman that should be an ATD selection. He place Top-5 in the overall league in term of assist a staggering 4 time! 9-time he was top-5 in assists among defenceman! It shows he was more more of a playmaker than a goalscorer, which quotes agrees with. He was a great passer and excellent in the transititon game. He was also renown as a great quarterback on the powerplay.

Speed: Bubla was a decent skater in term of speed, but he mostly relied on his excellent mobility to make thing happen on the ice.

Defensive play: Bubla was a better defensive player than I credited him for. Far from a liability, he was however a better offensive player than a defensive one. I would call him a 'light' two-way player.

Toughness: Although LoH wrote that he had difficulty translating his tough brand of hockey onto an NHL rink, it's the only quotes I could find on the matter. I found far more quotes on Bubla hard physical brand of hockey, which he was able to implement in the NHL, including one of HoF broadcaster Jim Robson and Bublas himself. Perhaps he was not the physical monster in was in Czech anymore, as he was now in his 30's and the north american player were bigger and stronger, but I'm not believing he suddently became a soft player in the NHL.


That's all. I believe Jiri Bubla is vastly underrated, and perhaps my biggest steal of the draft. He's obviously a couple of notch under Jan Suchy and Frantisek Pospisil, but I just cannot justify the HUGE difference in placement (142/177 vs. 526). The 300's would be a far better placement for Bubla I believe, but feel free to disagree and present a counter argument.

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03-04-2012, 05:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Stanley Cup had been awarded for 120 years. Being "one of the best" for a single decade isn't necessary ATD worthy.
lol so Xxx is a better coach than Babcock or Trotz? Gotcha.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-04-2012 at 05:13 PM. Reason: Undrafted
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Old
03-04-2012, 05:18 PM
  #99
TheDevilMadeMe
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lol so Xxx is a better coach than Babcock or Trotz? Gotcha.
First off, that guy is undrafted. Second off, Babcock is much more accomplished at high level competition (playoffs and international), so I don't have any idea what your point is

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03-04-2012, 05:21 PM
  #100
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First off, that guy is undrafted. Second off, Babcock is much more accomplished at high level competition (playoffs and international), so I don't have any idea what your point is
Trotz does more with less than any other coach in the NHL since the lockout IMO, so judging coaches based on championships is silly. It looks like the GM's are torn on this, but Trotz isn't out of place here for whoever drafted him.

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