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Old
03-05-2012, 08:36 AM
  #51
FiveForDrawingBlood
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Am I the only who feels that beyond the taxes, language and yada yada that if the habs want a top UFA like Suter, Parise or whatever that they'll need to make a blockbuster trade?

I know it sounds stupid, but if you're a UFA who wants to win, I highly doubt montreal's record+controversy are a selling point.

If the habs were to make a splash and say trade Plekanec+ for a legit big #1 center then I'm sure our perception around the league would change.

If you were UFA, can you seriously say you feel this management would do what it takes to win? I really don't see UFAs thinking that despite if it's true or not.
I think we should focus on second tier free agents this summer. Get a year or two out of them then flip 'em for more draft picks when the prospects like Bournival, Ellis, Gallagher or Beaulieu are ready. UFAs like Gaustad or Moore, a physical bottom pairing d-man.

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Old
03-05-2012, 08:55 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
People need to be more realistic here. There are very few superstar players who ever reach UFA status and we're not going to get every single one of them, or maybe not even any of them for that matter.

We don't HAVE to go after the big UFA every year. Who was it this year? Brad Richards. Who did we sign? Erik Cole

Brad Richards: 18G 27A 45P

Erik Cole: 23G 23A 46P

Be smart about UFA signings and don't just overpay for big names or this organization will be in worse shape than it already is.
I think a similar move would be Semin this coming year. Things went badly for him in Washington this year, as long as we don't sign him for 6-7 years he could be a steal.

Dump Gomez(waive/minors) and use some of that cap hit to offer Semin 4-5 years front loaded(5 mil bonus plus 8 mil 6 mil 5 mil 4 mil 4 mil...6.4 mil cap hit). I think he is the most talented UFA this year and will probably cost us less than Parise would(overpayment like 65-70 mil over 8 years).

Penner could be another "buy low" option. I wouldn't mind offering him 2 years and 6.5-7 mil.

other solid buys? Stoll Hudler Gaustad(depending on $$$) Jones Stempniak McClement Parenteau(depending on cost)

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Old
03-05-2012, 09:02 AM
  #53
Patty Roy
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Originally Posted by zeeto View Post
I don't know why people are still thinking Parise will since with the Habs. He's said that he's only going to be signing with a winning/contending team.
I'm not thinking Parise at all....just saying he's an elite UFA and the only way we would ever even get into the equation is by offering him something that is head and shoulders above the rest...and as you point out even then it might not be enough.

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03-05-2012, 09:10 AM
  #54
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I only see a Dman being a target for UFA (for big names anyway)

and anyone that feels we aren't contenders. Well. We had a very competitive team...until this year. A bad year with many slumps and injuries. Many will bounce back. Add in a top draft pick and the youth coming up. Many UFAs would see that as a favorable situation. Not to mention we have the cap space and willingness to spend

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03-05-2012, 09:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
I only see a Dman being a target for UFA (for big names anyway)

and anyone that feels we aren't contenders. Well. We had a very competitive team...until this year. A bad year with many slumps and injuries. Many will bounce back. Add in a top draft pick and the youth coming up. Many UFAs would see that as a favorable situation. Not to mention we have the cap space and willingness to spend
People also probably hear from the players being shipped out of how big a circus it is and they also probably notice how many good players we've shipped out for nothing, I very much doubt a lot of players looking to win will want to be a part of that, especially considering we're in the cellar right now.

The 'many UFAs' that would consider Montreal are probably considering it because they'd get more money/term over any other place. And none of those guys would be top end UFAs (like Parise and Suter, which people all think we can throw even the kitchen sink at them).

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Old
03-05-2012, 12:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Really our best option is to overpay for one UFA and hope it attracts others. A trade works too but it's never simple. Gainey tried this with the Gomez trade, and while that arguably helped us get Cammalleri and Gionta (by overpaying all of it), it's turned out to be a disaster. What's funny is how much the Rangers built off that- they used the Gomez money to bring in Gaborik, than focused on freeing up more space for Richards.

I just don't think we have the talent to trade for an elite player without blind luck or being willing to give up either our pick or Subban. If we trade Plekanec it will probably be a younger but comparable player. Plekanec isn't going to get you Eric Staal.

Really UFAs are the best bet, unfortunately this is a bad year. I don't think we can get either Parise or Suter but if you offer a stupid enough deal you are in the mix. And I know a lot of people don't want to hear this, but if Semin hits free agency, you make him an offer. Nobody is knocking down the door to play with Semin but until we get more depth, I am sceptical a trade will be anything more than a step sideways.

The best way to start is not taking on more contracts. It's getting rid of Gomez and maybe Kaberle at all costs.
draft one ...remember we Kosty Draft ...OUCH

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03-05-2012, 04:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I think there's a distinction between saying "now" and "in my career". A lot of people, even habs fans, may want to play for the habs, but many wouldn't spend a career here. Winners, top players, want competitive teams, not bottom dwellers.
fair enough... but are we really "bottom dwellers"?

do you really think that we're likely to be a lottery team again next year?

I'm no fan of our results under Gainey/Gauthier, but this is definitely by far our worst season, and the only one were we could be considered a "bottom dweller".

Otherwise, we've been mediocre, but always a playoff contender.

heading into next season, even with no additions whatsoever, we should manage to compete in that 6-10 grouping... this year's colossal collapse is more a reflection of absolutely moronic management & continued bad luck on the injury front.

get a solid management team in place, a coach who isn't a lame duck, and some long-overdue injury reprieve, and we should resume our 6-10 standing.

a star player/star ego might very well view themselves as part of the solution to bump the team out of the 6-10 range we've mostly been, to a firm top-4 team.

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03-05-2012, 04:21 PM
  #58
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Superstars rarely become UFAs. So you won't find one that way to begin with.

Some guys do it to win cups (in which case we won't get them now) and others do it for the cash (we have managed to get these guys by overpaying) and probably won't lead you anywhere.

The sad truth is that right now we can't attract the best free agents and that probably won't change until we have a much better team.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:29 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
fair enough... but are we really "bottom dwellers"?

do you really think that we're likely to be a lottery team again next year?

I'm no fan of our results under Gainey/Gauthier, but this is definitely by far our worst season, and the only one were we could be considered a "bottom dweller".

Otherwise, we've been mediocre, but always a playoff contender.

heading into next season, even with no additions whatsoever, we should manage to compete in that 6-10 grouping... this year's colossal collapse is more a reflection of absolutely moronic management & continued bad luck on the injury front.

get a solid management team in place, a coach who isn't a lame duck, and some long-overdue injury reprieve, and we should resume our 6-10 standing.

a star player/star ego might very well view themselves as part of the solution to bump the team out of the 6-10 range we've mostly been, to a firm top-4 team.
I think this is something we know. I think the players are also aware of this, but top players don't want 6-10 range teams. Let's look at a recent case of Ilya Kovalchuk. Loved in atlanta, guy refused what was it 100+ over 12 years in a warmer climate. People say money is what matters, but nah, apparently someone people like to claim has the 'russian hockey player' mentality flat out refused top dollar to play for a more competitive team. Granted, NJD hasn't been a cup contender, but it's essentially besides the point.

We have very little star power. Most players, beyond money and team rank sit back and say "damn, i'd love to play with malkin, crosby, ovechkin, etc..."

As of now, I'd say with 99.999% certainty we have close to no chance for Suter or Parise and very little on Semin. Now, if the GM goes out and acquires a top player with star power, a Weber, a Getzlaf or whatever. Do you honestly believe our chances to get a top player via free agency stay the same?

It's like a domino effect and granted, I'm not saying get a top player at all costs, but this franchise has reached the point where they just might have to. We love to hang on to our tradition and class and I've seen very little of it in last 2 years. As stupid as this sounds, that lottery pick is a blessing for Molson. Having a top prospect breeds optimism and people get excited and tune in. If we got stuck with another 9th place finish, we'd be so much worse down the road.

Like I said, i'm not trying to blow up the team, but let's call it for what it is. Getting a top player via trade will help:

Create a buzz
Attract UFAs
Our Standing/Team
Our perception around the league
etc..

I should have put my OP as we lack star power, because we do. Even with a top 3 pick this draft, it is uncertain if any of them will provide the star power we need.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:43 PM
  #60
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I say you never know..habs have to push hard at all top talents available in a buiding mode. We may not have been lucky catching those big names (not many available) but eventually there will be somebody who would love to play with the habs no matter the situation.. we need a clean up on ice and off ice at the end of the season still..


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Old
03-05-2012, 10:34 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
Imagine if you were a superstar in Montreal the money you could get from sponsors, the amount of fine women you could plow, a place in the history of NHL's most storied franchise..

Downsides:
Taxes (big downside)
Pressure (some people choke, true winners don't mind)
Weather

Language (hardly a downside IMO)
Epic. Should change your name to 69

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03-06-2012, 12:03 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think a similar move would be Semin this coming year. Things went badly for him in Washington this year, as long as we don't sign him for 6-7 years he could be a steal.

Dump Gomez(waive/minors) and use some of that cap hit to offer Semin 4-5 years front loaded(5 mil bonus plus 8 mil 6 mil 5 mil 4 mil 4 mil...6.4 mil cap hit). I think he is the most talented UFA this year and will probably cost us less than Parise would(overpayment like 65-70 mil over 8 years).

Penner could be another "buy low" option. I wouldn't mind offering him 2 years and 6.5-7 mil.

other solid buys? Stoll Hudler Gaustad(depending on $$$) Jones Stempniak McClement Parenteau(depending on cost)
Both great examples of what we should avoid at all costs. Thank you.

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03-06-2012, 12:31 AM
  #63
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money $

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Old
03-06-2012, 12:36 AM
  #64
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When you target guys like Gomer Pile instead of Gaborik you know the GM has a few screws loose. Most everyone knew it was a bad deal from the start. I had that hunch Gaborik was going to be healthy and back in form. He was that high profile player we needed. I said the Habs should be going hard after this guy at the time.

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Old
03-06-2012, 07:39 AM
  #65
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Sure, Montreal isn't as attractive as New York for UFAs, but we ain't exactly Minnesota or Carolina, either. The city and franchise still carry a strong appeal. You don't become stuck with a 'bottom dweller' tag because of one bad season.

A healthy and playing Markov adds some prestige to our team. Defensemen will want to play alongside him. Carey Price is considered elite and carries similar prestige.

Luckily, the rest of the league doesn't see all the squabbling and whining behind the scenes of our obsessive fan base. They see a team that fell off the map this season because they're young and rebuilding. The message is that the new Habs are reinventing themselves as younger, bigger and tougher.

Lastly, introducing a new coach early in the off-season will help build a buzz that we're headed in a fresh new direction.

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03-06-2012, 08:11 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Sure, Montreal isn't as attractive as New York for UFAs, but we ain't exactly Minnesota or Carolina, either. The city and franchise still carry a strong appeal. You don't become stuck with a 'bottom dweller' tag because of one bad season.

A healthy and playing Markov adds some prestige to our team. Defensemen will want to play alongside him. Carey Price is considered elite and carries similar prestige.

Luckily, the rest of the league doesn't see all the squabbling and whining behind the scenes of our obsessive fan base. They see a team that fell off the map this season because they're young and rebuilding. The message is that the new Habs are reinventing themselves as younger, bigger and tougher.

Lastly, introducing a new coach early in the off-season will help build a buzz that we're headed in a fresh new direction.
A well managed team that has a bright future with young players is very attractive to UFA's . Let's give that a try and see if we have any of the traditional Montreal barriers any more.

Problem is the team hasn't developed a good nucleus on which they could augment with the occasional high end free agent. Mismanagement created the need to rely on free agents just to remain competitive. Didn't work out so well in the long run.

A strong franchise will not have any problems getting talent, players like to win.
Recent UFA's the team has signed have been mercenaries. That's not the type of UFA that Montreal attracts, that's the type of UFA the currently mismanaged Montreal team attracts.

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Old
03-06-2012, 09:35 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think a similar move would be Semin this coming year. Things went badly for him in Washington this year, as long as we don't sign him for 6-7 years he could be a steal.

Dump Gomez(waive/minors) and use some of that cap hit to offer Semin 4-5 years front loaded(5 mil bonus plus 8 mil 6 mil 5 mil 4 mil 4 mil...6.4 mil cap hit). I think he is the most talented UFA this year and will probably cost us less than Parise would(overpayment like 65-70 mil over 8 years).

Penner could be another "buy low" option. I wouldn't mind offering him 2 years and 6.5-7 mil.

other solid buys? Stoll Hudler Gaustad(depending on $$$) Jones Stempniak McClement Parenteau(depending on cost)
Why you want them? Penner is lazy and Semin way over rated. Only big points Semin put up was playing with Ovechkin, he'll only get 50 points here at 6.4 cap hit that is way too much

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Old
03-06-2012, 09:56 AM
  #68
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I think if we offered Suter 42 Million over 6 years (7M Cap hit, and double what he makes now) he might take it. Unless he gets offered more. It would make Suter the 3rd highest paid D in the league tied with Doughty.

And then if we did get a big UFA like Suter and then buried Gomez/Kabs in the minors if they can't be traded someone like Parise could possibly be willing to sign for 7+M per year. The UFA signings definitely snowball, when you land one others often follow. And burying big contracts in the minors would indicate seriousness on the part of the owners on winning.

I look at lineups like this and salivate all too much i think. So unlikely to happen, but oh would it be grand.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($7.500m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Erik Cole ($4.500m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m) / Rene Bourque ($3.333m)
Louis Leblanc ($1.170m) / Lars Eller ($1.500m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Travis Moen ($1.700m) / Ryan White ($0.625m) / Blake Geoffrion ($1.000m)
Mike Blunden ($0.615m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($7.000m) / P.K. Subban ($3.500m)
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / Alexei Emelin ($1.200m)
Raphael Diaz ($1.000m) / Josh Gorges ($3.900m)
Yannick Weber ($0.850m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($5.500m) / Peter Budaj ($1.150m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,268,333; BONUSES: $300,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $31,667


Last edited by HockeyF3ind: 03-06-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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Old
03-06-2012, 10:05 AM
  #69
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Grabovski just set the bar high for free agents this summer. If he's getting 5.5, Parise and Suter will probably both get 7.5

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Old
03-06-2012, 10:05 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post

Penner could be another "buy low" option. I wouldn't mind offering him 2 years and 6.5-7 mil.
?

how is 3.25-3.5M$ for a guy playing <15min/night, while often being a healthy scratch, while putting up <10g & <20pts, considered "buying low"?

If anyone gives Penner a penny over 2.5M$ i'll be amazed (ditto being shocked if he gets more than a 1 year deal, much like Tanguay got a few years back).


I'd take a flyer on him, late in the summer, assuming we flamed out in other UFA/Trade options, and I wouldn't be offering anything more than ~1.5M$ on a 1 year deal.

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03-06-2012, 10:14 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
I think if we offered Suter 42 Million over 6 years (7M Cap hit, and double what he makes now) he might take it. Unless he gets offered more. It would make Suter the 3rd highest paid D in the league tied with Doughty.
The problem is that that doesn't seem like a 'blow your socks off' kind of offer, that seems like the starting point for offers for Suter if he makes free agency. And that's a pretty big 'if' because Nashville will probably put an offer along those lines on the table before July even comes. Probably a year longer, 7x7, same as Rinne got.

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Old
03-06-2012, 10:14 AM
  #72
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I dont think we even have the cap space for Parise AND Suter. Dont we need to resign RFA's like Price,Subban,Emelin......

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03-06-2012, 10:18 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Am I the only who feels that beyond the taxes, language and yada yada that if the habs want a top UFA like Suter, Parise or whatever that they'll need to make a blockbuster trade?

I know it sounds stupid, but if you're a UFA who wants to win, I highly doubt montreal's record+controversy are a selling point.

If the habs were to make a splash and say trade Plekanec+ for a legit big #1 center then I'm sure our perception around the league would change.

If you were UFA, can you seriously say you feel this management would do what it takes to win? I really don't see UFAs thinking that despite if it's true or not.
I still don't understand that one ....

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03-06-2012, 10:51 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I think this is something we know. I think the players are also aware of this, but top players don't want 6-10 range teams. Let's look at a recent case of Ilya Kovalchuk. Loved in atlanta, guy refused what was it 100+ over 12 years in a warmer climate. People say money is what matters, but nah, apparently someone people like to claim has the 'russian hockey player' mentality flat out refused top dollar to play for a more competitive team.
You know he's getting paid an average of 11 million dollars a year for the next six years, right?

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Old
03-06-2012, 12:25 PM
  #75
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Are we ever gonna see a superstar player from Quebec sign with the Habs as an UFA?
Quebec would first have to produce a superstar. There hasn't been one other than Brodeur(in his prime) since Lemieux and Roy retired.

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