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Injury Talk 4.0: Markov practicing with the team, now with contact

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:21 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Management's heads need to roll. What happened to me? I've watched this team go from promising to absolute mess in a few seasons. After working so hard to get out of the Houle mess.

It pains me to see the same mistakes made over and over again, by the same two people who have been involved. Anyone with half a hockey brain could've had this team a top contender by now, instead, we're rebuilding again.

My concern is that Markov coming back will win us a few more games we'd otherwise lose, which is the difference between 3rd over-all and 7th over-all right now. And reguardless of what you believe, there is a significant difference in the potential of the top 4 forwards and the next 4. If all of this season ends up with only a potential 2nd liner, I will be INCENSED.
u know what pains me?fairweather fans like you who have NO clue about running an nhl franchise.everything that could possibly go wrong this year has.yet we re only 6 games under .500 .if you dont see the potential in our core(price,pk.pacs,gorges,emelin,etc) you truly are blind.stop you re whining.no wonder habs fans have such a brutal rep.its cause half our fan base dont know anthing about the game,yet act like they could run a team.

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03-05-2012, 04:21 PM
  #877
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Glad you brought up Islanders...because they're a good example that tanking or trying to position yourself to draft in a particular spot, doesn't really always give the expected results.
Nobody wants to play on Long Island any more, that really brings down the entire season before it begins.

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03-05-2012, 04:22 PM
  #878
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How the heck are we rushing him back? If we rushed him back he would have been back by now with several games under his belt and perhaps another stint on the DL. The habs have no incentive to play Markov other than the simple fact that he's healthy/medically cleared, he hasn't played in over a calender year, we have to see how his knee holds up in NHL play before we can go into next season with ANOTHER question mark. Given that he's "healthy" I'd rather see Markov get hurt AGAIN this year so we can make decisions in the offseason knowing he's hurt as opposed going into the 2013 year thinking that markov is good and having him go down AGAIN and have no back up (like this disaster season).
This is also the way I see it.. If hes cleared, he should play.

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03-05-2012, 04:23 PM
  #879
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We have upcoming games against the Canes, Isles, Oilers, Sabres, Ligthing, Leafs... all lower tier clubs. Some of whom we could directly pass by winning games against them.

It just doesn't make any sense to do this now.
I'd love to know what the Habs record is against these teams this year...

Newsflash...the Habs stink

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03-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #880
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Markov will help us score on the powerplay. He won't help us when Kaberle and Campoli give up 3 goal leads.

I don't mind dipping in the standings, as long as we can atleast draft Forsberg. God I want a real Swedish star on the Habs, the Swedes seem like the most consistent of players.

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03-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'd love to know what the Habs record is against these teams this year...

Newsflash...the Habs stink
Again... what is there to gain here? Nothing. There is only downside.

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03-05-2012, 04:25 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
If Markov draws in, Crapoli draws out.

That in itself is a significant upgrade, despite Markov not playing for 2 seasons. It can give us an extra 5 points which would be enough to leapfrog a team.
If Markov is cleared to play he should play. He has been sitting long enough. If he is going to be that good, I want him in the lineup, because you either use it or lose it.

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03-05-2012, 04:27 PM
  #883
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Glad you brought up Islanders...because they're a good example that tanking or trying to position yourself to draft in a particular spot, doesn't really always give the expected results

But again, I reiterate that this edition of the Montreal Canadiens, even with Markov, from my obvservations, isn't likely to go on any extended winning streak. They can barely play 60 consecutive minutes of solid hockey...the coaching staff looks completely overwhelmed and a number of veterans are either hurt or mentally checked out.
The difference with the Islanders is that their management is even more incompetent than ours. Which is saying something.

I actually disagree on the statement that this team is far from being competitive; it's not.

All you have to do is compare it to a previous edition. This is the best team we've had, on paper, in over 10 years.

As I've mentioned in the past, there are three elements missing for this team to be good again.

1) A #1 Defense man. The stay at home kind, that can log big minutes and help protect leads.

2) Better coaching. Especially for the PP. An effective PP makes all the difference between a bottom feeder and a top end team. I brought up the stats in the past, and had the Habs been a middle of the pack team on the PP all season, we'd be comfortably sitting in the middle of top 8.

3) A center that doesn't get pushed around and can log in big minutes.

3a) Better GM. But this is not crucial.

That's it. That's all that's needed. The Habs biggest problem this year has been holding on to leads and scoring on the PP. Both those problems are fixed by having a better d-corps and better coaching. The line from great to **** is really not that thick.

Unfortunately, seeing the team lose the way it has this year has truly tainted many folk's opinions on the quality of the roster. But most of you are looking at it from an emotional perspective, not a technical perspective.

There is also the psychological effect. The players have no confidence in their management, so that causes the trickle-down effect of having incompetent managers and incompetent players. A change in philosophy would go a long way in telling the players "We're committed. Are you?"

I think that this summer will truly tell us everything we need to know about what kind of owner Molson is and will be. He will have the opportunity to really take this team to another level (like Detroit), or truly destroy it like the Islanders.

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03-05-2012, 04:28 PM
  #884
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You don't think a guy who is coming off 2 serious knee surgeries and whose played 7 NHL games the last 2 years has a mental barrier?

And you're laughing at me?? pfffttt please
Yes, I am laughing at your post.
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Well it's my point...
There's no point to be made there. We all know that he won't turn us into playoff contenders...
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I don't care...but HE does. Again, maybe it's not important to you, but it is to him. He's been rehabbing ALL year, and now that he's ready to play you want to tell him to forget all the hard work he's put in and just go lay on a beach somewhere?

I never said to rush Markov back...when/if he's ready to play, he should play. Whether that means it's 15, 10, 5 or 1 game, when he's ready, he'll go and holding him out doesn't make much sense IMO.

Markov could sit out, the Habs could finish 27th and get the 3rd pick only to fall back when they do the draft lottery. So, again, trying to position yourself makes very little sense, that's why they have the weighted lottery draft.
It doesn't matter. If you're climbing in the standings it's a losing proposition for us. Lottery wins can go either way... but no matter what, climbing in the standings now hurts us.

As for Markov, bring him back on the last two or three games of the season but not now. It makes zero sense to do bring him back right now.

And unfortunately, that's exactly why PG will do it. We've got an idiot GM and he'll no doubt make the wrong choice here. Bringing Markov in could very easily get us wins against the very teams that we're behind in the standings and push us up. And for what? So Markov can feel better? Makes no sense to do it.

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03-05-2012, 04:30 PM
  #885
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The downside far outweighs any gains.

And I really don't see any gains by bringing him back to begin with. Him "feeling good" is irrelevant. And we can find out if he's ready next year. We don't need to see this guy play to know this. Besides even if he is skating well it doesn't matter. We should still treat him as an injury risk.

There's no point to doing this now. It only hurts us.
He wouldn't even be practicing if he wasn't medically cleared. How can we find out if he's ready next year if he hasn't played any games to prove it? I mean that's why you're holding him back this year right? How does an offseason of doing what he's doing now give us a better idea of Markov's health for next year? If he's healthy enough to play, he should play. It's a guessing game if he plays this season and its a guessing game if we wait for him to play next year. At least allowing him to play this year gives us the chance to plan around his absence if something does in fact goes wrong.

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03-05-2012, 04:31 PM
  #886
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I want Markov to play as soon as he can. The sooner we can see if he still looks like an NHL player the better. It will be important in determining what we do with Kaberle and just what we need to look for in the offseason. If Markov looks like he has something left, you get rid of Kaberle at all costs and see if you can get something for Weber.

Markov gains nothing for sitting out longer than he has to. His ACL surgery was a good 15 months ago at this point.

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03-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Again... what is there to gain here? Nothing. There is only downside.
It has been pointed out numerous times (and you have ignored it every time) that Markov has a lot to gain from coming back before the season ends.

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03-05-2012, 04:38 PM
  #888
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He wouldn't even be practicing if he wasn't medically cleared. How can we find out if he's ready next year if he hasn't played any games to prove it? I mean that's why you're holding him back this year right? How does an offseason of doing what he's doing now give us a better idea of Markov's health for next year? If he's healthy enough to play, he should play. It's a guessing game if he plays this season and its a guessing game if we wait for him to play next year. At least allowing him to play this year gives us the chance to plan around his absence if something does in fact goes wrong.
I honestly don't care... I really don't.

The guy is an injury risk and we've screwed ourselves for two years waiting for him to be healthy. He's not healthy and we can't ever assume that he'll be healthy again. I don't care if we see him play again this year, it's not important for him to play again this year. If he comes back and plays 82 games next year... awesome. If not, oh well. But we have to stop planning everything around this guy.

What IS important right now is getting the best player we can at the draft. THAT should be what we're looking at.

By all means, put Markov in for a few games at the end but not now. Winning games now is a hollow victory for us. We all know the players and coaches will be playing as hard as they can to win (as they should) and nobody is suggesting that we try to lose. But by the same token we don't have to play Markov now and there's really no reason why we should.

I don't care how Markov feels. I don't care about his mental barriers and I don't care about him playing well down the stretch. I care about us winning a cup someday again and seeing Markov play this year or not won't mean diddly on that front.

Which is why PG will play him and screw us up. That's the way it usually works.
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It has been pointed out numerous times (and you have ignored it every time) that Markov has a lot to gain from coming back before the season ends.
I don't care about his gains. I care about our gains. I care about our success.

The benefits (if there are any at all) of him playing this year are hugely outweighed by the benefits of sitting him.
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I want Markov to play as soon as he can. The sooner we can see if he still looks like an NHL player the better. It will be important in determining what we do with Kaberle and just what we need to look for in the offseason. If Markov looks like he has something left, you get rid of Kaberle at all costs and see if you can get something for Weber.
What is seeing him going to tell us that we don't already know? We should be planning for him to be hurt anyway. It doesn't matter if he plays well down the stretch or not. We have to assume that we're not getting 82 games from him next year. That's what we should've done this year.
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Markov gains nothing for sitting out longer than he has to. His ACL surgery was a good 15 months ago at this point.
Who cares? It's about the team now not him.


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03-05-2012, 04:42 PM
  #889
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Lafleurs guy, you're really losing it in all this tank drama

Markov has nothing to gain, and no mental barriers by playing after 18 months of rehab? Whatever you say buddy.

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03-05-2012, 04:44 PM
  #890
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It has been pointed out numerous times (and you have ignored it every time) that Markov has a lot to gain from coming back before the season ends.
Both Markov and the Habs organization have a lot to gain from him coming back before the season ends, and playing in as many games as possible in order to really test the knee. It's crucial to gauge Markov's health as best as we can in order to plan for next season and beyond.

And I strongly doubt Markov coming doubt will affect the tanking mission. Just look at our lineup at forward...we've stripped ourselves of almost all our raw talent!!!

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03-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #891
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You don't care about Markov yet you're fearful that he's going to take the worst team in the conference out of the lottery? He must be a pretty important player if he can do that. Maybe you SHOULD care about him when you already think so highly of him.

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03-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #892
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LG when you say that you care about "our gains", Markov is included in that our. He and the org needs to know where he is at and they will only know once he plays.

If Markov is ready, he will play. He is a member of the team and a key one at that. Knowing how well he can perform will help with evaluations of the team moving forward in the 2012-2013 season.

I get your tanking narrative, but you are taking it too far. It's actually narrowed your already narrow vision. Actually come to think about it, it seems that you don't really care about "our team", rather you care about your personal vision.

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03-05-2012, 04:46 PM
  #893
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Lafleurs guy, you're really losing it in all this tank drama

Markov has nothing to gain, and no mental barriers by playing after 18 months of rehab? Whatever you say buddy.
Read my posts if you're going to comment.

I said I don't care about his gains. Any benefit that he derives here is of little consequence to us. I couldn't care less about his "mental barriers" I care about us getting the best player we can so we can win a cup again someday.

I know this doesn't mean anythign to you. I know you're happy with whatever slop management serves you up on your tray and defend the hell out of it. But some of us want to see a superstar player in a Hab uniform again someday.
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You don't care about Markov yet you're fearful that he's going to take the worst team in the conference out of the lottery? He must be a pretty important player if he can do that. Maybe you SHOULD care about him when you already think so highly of him.
Play him next year.
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LG when you say that you care about "our gains", Markov is included in that our. He and the org needs to know where he is at and they will only know once he plays.

If Markov is ready, he will play. He is a member of the team and a key one at that. Knowing how well he can perform will help with evaluations of the team moving forward in the 2012-2013 season.

I get your tanking narrative, but you are taking it too far. It's actually narrowed your already narrow vision. Actually come to think about it, it seems that you don't really care about "our team", rather you care about your personal vision.
I care only about a cup man. And you should know this by now.

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03-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #894
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After Yakupov the guys going between picks 2-6 is essentially a crapshoot and that's where the Habs will be drafting. We'll be getting one of the guys we want regardless of Markov...quit worrying about Markov turning us into a .600 team when the majority of the teams ahead of us are already playing like that.

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03-05-2012, 04:48 PM
  #895
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I honestly don't care... I really don't.

The guy is an injury risk and we've screwed ourselves for two years waiting for him to be healthy. He's not healthy and we can't ever assume that he'll be healthy again. I don't care if we see him play again this year, it's not important for him to play again this year. If he comes back and plays 82 games next year... awesome. If not, oh well. But we have to stop planning everything around this guy.

What IS important right now is getting the best player we can at the draft. THAT should be what we're looking at.

By all means, put Markov in for a few games at the end but not now. Winning games now is a hollow victory for us. We all know the players and coaches will be playing as hard as they can to win (as they should) and nobody is suggesting that we try to lose. But by the same token we don't have to play Markov now and there's really no reason why we should.

I don't care how Markov feels. I don't care about his mental barriers and I don't care about him playing well down the stretch. I care about us winning a cup someday again and seeing Markov play this year or not won't mean diddly on that front.

Which is why PG will play him and screw us up. That's the way it usually works.

I don't care about his gains. I care about our gains. I care about our success.

The benefits (if there are any at all) of him playing this year are hugely outweighed by the benefits of sitting him.

What is seeing him going to tell us that we don't already know? We should be planning for him to be hurt anyway. It doesn't matter if he plays well down the stretch or not. We have to assume that we're not getting 82 games from him next year. That's what we should've done this year.

Who cares? It's about the team now not him.
Fine, even if it's all about the team, your stance is somewhat misguided. The team absolutely needs to know whether or not it can count on Markov next season, because it will directly affect which assets we need to acquire the most.

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03-05-2012, 04:51 PM
  #896
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Fine, even if it's all about the team, your stance is somewhat misguided. The team absolutely needs to know whether or not it can count on Markov next season, because it will directly affect which assets we need to acquire the most.
We should assume that we need a top blueliner anyway. 15 games of Markov shouldn't change this no matter how well he plays. Bottom line is that he's an aging player with a history of bad injuries and we can no longer count on him to be healthy. I'm sorry but that's how it is. We should've assumed that this year but didn't. We can't make that mistake again.

Anything he provides is a bonus. If you plan for his absence and he stays healthy... you're just that much better a team. If he gets hurt, you're prepared for it. That's how a smart team would handle it.
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After Yakupov the guys going between picks 2-6 is essentially a crapshoot and that's where the Habs will be drafting. We'll be getting one of the guys we want regardless of Markov...quit worrying about Markov turning us into a .600 team when the majority of the teams ahead of us are already playing like that.
Says you.

I'd much rather let Timmins get first pick of that lot.

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03-05-2012, 04:51 PM
  #897
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You really are underestimating the impact of psychology on the game.

Not to sound dramatic, but at Markov's age to have missed as much time as he has, even if he is physically fine there is a chance he's already mentally finished. The clock is ticking. A couple more months and it's even more likely he will never be able to get up to pace again.

I think giving Markov as much chance as possible to return to being even a fraction of the player he once was is in this team's long term interests. The benefit is much more about the next two seasons than now, because if Markov isn't a complete liability out there at first I'd consider it impressive.

I agree that we need to plan a defense that functions with or without Markov next year, but it's in our benefit to have one with him, and that's more likely to happen if he can play 10 games right now than it will be if he has to sit out for more time.

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03-05-2012, 04:52 PM
  #898
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Read my posts if you're going to comment.

I said I don't care about his gains. Any benefit that he derives here is of little consequence to us. I couldn't care less about his "mental barriers" I care about us getting the best player we can so we can win a cup again someday.

I know this doesn't mean anythign to you. I know you're happy with whatever slop management serves you up on your tray and defend the hell out of it. But some of us want to see a superstar player in a Hab uniform again someday.

Play him next year.

I care only about a cup man. And you should know this by now.
It takes more than a tank to win a cup. A healthy Markov is a key part of a successful team. Not knowing where he is now will affect team evaluations in the future. Maybe the habs don't pick up an insurance policy in the summer if they know Markov is 100% ready. They will know this by having him play, not by having him sit out on the sideline.

Your narrow tanking narrtive is obscuring your analysis of the bigger picture. You get on management's case that they are too short-sighted and concerned with immediate gains, yet you take it the other extreme. A hockey team needs to balance long-term and short-term goals and evaluating Markov's ability to play is important for the team's success in the future as it could shape the way the team reacts in shaping the defense.

If he is healthy maybe they don't get an insurance policy, but you can't know until he plays.

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03-05-2012, 04:58 PM
  #899
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You really are underestimating the impact of psychology on the game.

Not to sound dramatic, but at Markov's age to have missed as much time as he has, even if he is physically fine there is a chance he's already mentally finished. The clock is ticking. A couple more months and it's even more likely he will never be able to get up to pace again.

I think giving Markov as much chance as possible to return to being even a fraction of the player he once was is in this team's long term interests. The benefit is much more about the next two seasons than now, because if Markov isn't a complete liability out there at first I'd consider it impressive.

I agree that we need to plan a defense that functions with or without Markov next year, but it's in our benefit to have one with him, and that's more likely to happen if he can play 10 games right now than it will be if he has to sit out for more time.
The benefits of playing him don't come close to outweighing the downside.

It'd be one thing to do this if we were solidly in last place with no chance of moving up but it's not. We're playing teams that we're 'competing' with for those top draft spots and winning those games could hurt us for YEARS.

It's not worth it.
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It takes more than a tank to win a cup. A healthy Markov is a key part of a successful team. Not knowing where he is now will affect team evaluations in the future. Maybe the habs don't pick up an insurance policy in the summer if they know Markov is 100% ready. They will know this by having him play, not by having him sit out on the sideline.

Your narrow tanking narrtive is obscuring your analysis of the bigger picture. You get on management's case that they are too short-sighted and concerned with immediate gains, yet you take it the other extreme. A hockey team needs to balance long-term and short-term goals and evaluating Markov's ability to play is important for the team's success in the future as it could shape the way the team reacts in shaping the defense.

If he is healthy maybe they don't get an insurance policy, but you can't know until he plays.
Dude... please let's not waste time on that red herring.

We're talking about Markov here and we're sitting in 3rd last place. We're already there. And since we're already there more victories mean zero.

You keep talking to me about the bigger picture... take your own advice.

If we move up in the standings and miss out on the picks we'd otherwise get it hurts us for years. Forget about me and your perceptions of me and my so-called 'tanking' strategy... none of that matters here.

What matters now is that we're sitting way outside the playoffs with a legit chance at getting a top three pick. Getting that pick is more important than anything to do with Markov. Sorry but that's the truth.

Stop digging your heels in and think about it.

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03-05-2012, 04:59 PM
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We should assume that we need a top blueliner anyway. 15 games of Markov shouldn't change this no matter how well he plays. Bottom line is that he's an aging player with a history of bad injuries and we can no longer count on him to be healthy. I'm sorry but that's how it is. We should've assumed that this year but didn't. We can't make that mistake again.

Anything he provides is a bonus. If you plan for his absence and he stays healthy... you're just that much better a team. If he gets hurt, you're prepared for it. That's how a smart team would handle it.

Says you.

I'd much rather let Timmins get first pick of that lot.
David Fischer > Claude Giroux?
Ben Maxwell > Milan Lucic?

As much as I like Timmins, he's not perfect. To me the pick that we are likely to get will turn into a good NHLer, but how good NOBODY knows. But we do know how good Andrei Markov is and i'd like to see what we have in that asset.

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