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Injury Talk 4.0: Markov practicing with the team, now with contact

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03-05-2012, 04:03 PM
  #901
Andy
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Dude... please let's not waste time on that red herring

We're talking about Markov here and we're sitting in 3rd last place. We're already there. And since we're already there more victories mean zero.

You keep talking to me about the bigger picture... take your own advice.

If we move up in the standings and miss out on the picks we'd otherwise get it hurts us for years. Forget about me and your perceptions of me and my so-called 'tanking' strategy... none of that matters here.

What matters now is that we're sitting way outside the playoffs with a legit chance at getting a top three pick. Getting that pick is more important than anything to do with Markov. Sorry but that's the truth.

Stop digging your heels in and think about it.
I'm sorry man you are wrong. Markov is a part of the team, they need to know how to perform, you don't sit out a player because he might threaten your tank.

Markov will play when ready and it will be the right decision because having a healthy Markov is important for the team in the long-term and this needs to be known as soon as possible so the habs can act accordingly.

There's probably a better chance the habs don't pick a superstar with their pick then moving up in standings enough to lose out on one.

Let's stop playing Price while we're at it, as well as Desharnais, Pacioretty and Cole. This is ridiculous.

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03-05-2012, 04:05 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by GeneralManager View Post
David Fischer > Claude Giroux?
Ben Maxwell > Milan Lucic?

As much as I like Timmins, he's not perfect. To me the pick that we are likely to get will turn into a good NHLer, but how good NOBODY knows. But we do know how good Andrei Markov is and i'd like to see what we have in that asset.
Great... you can cherrypick some players who we didn't get, congratulations. You can do that for any scout in the league.

That means absolutely zero in what we're talking about here. For years Timmins has had to get what he can from mid round picks and we've gone without superstars. It makes absolutely no sense to try to argue that there's a benefit from drafting later. We should be giving him the best shot he can to get the best player we can.
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I'm sorry man you are wrong. Markov is a part of the team, they need to know how to perform, you don't sit out a player because he might threaten your tank.

Markov will play when ready and it will be the right decision because having a healthy Markov is important for the team in the long-term and this needs to be known as soon as possible so the habs can act accordingly.

There's probably a better chance the habs don't pick a superstar with their pick then moving up in standings enough to lose out on one.

Let's stop playing Price while we're at it, as well as Desharnais, Pacioretty and Cole. This is ridiculous.
It's not close to the same thing and you know it.

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03-05-2012, 04:05 PM
  #903
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Easy solution. Just play him every other game or something. Give him very few minutes when he plays. But I think he should play. There's no way he can lead us to victory right?

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03-05-2012, 04:09 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The benefits of playing him don't come close to outweighing the downside.

It'd be one thing to do this if we were solidly in last place with no chance of moving up but it's not. We're playing teams that we're 'competing' with for those top draft spots and winning those games could hurt us for YEARS.

We let Markov play, we Sit Price for those ''important game'' = Deal ?


Edit: just saw your answer to Andy.

So you really think Markov will have that much of an impact ?? wow...

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03-05-2012, 04:09 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I want Markov to play as soon as he can. The sooner we can see if he still looks like an NHL player the better. It will be important in determining what we do with Kaberle and just what we need to look for in the offseason. If Markov looks like he has something left, you get rid of Kaberle at all costs and see if you can get something for Weber.

Markov gains nothing for sitting out longer than he has to. His ACL surgery was a good 15 months ago at this point.
On this question whether Markov should play or not I'm divided.

But if he does come back and plays what does it prove? Last year Markov played how many games before he got hurt again? It's very conceivable that Markov comes back for the last few games and looks good, comes back next year and gets hurt again or he doesn't. Coming back and playing well doesn't really say anything about what will happen next year.

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03-05-2012, 04:09 PM
  #906
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Yes, I am laughing at your post.

There's no point to be made there. We all know that he won't turn us into playoff contenders...

It doesn't matter. If you're climbing in the standings it's a losing proposition for us. Lottery wins can go either way... but no matter what, climbing in the standings now hurts us.

As for Markov, bring him back on the last two or three games of the season but not now. It makes zero sense to do bring him back right now.

And unfortunately, that's exactly why PG will do it. We've got an idiot GM and he'll no doubt make the wrong choice here. Bringing Markov in could very easily get us wins against the very teams that we're behind in the standings and push us up. And for what? So Markov can feel better? Makes no sense to do it.
Let me ask you a question or rather propose a scenario...

Let's say Markov does come back the last 10 games but he plays awful but Price stands on his head and is the biggest reason Habs win 7 of 10 let's say...

What are you gonna say then?

Its pretty ridiculous to assume a player who hasn't played any competitive hockey in almost 2 years cld singlehandedly make this team drop from 27th overall to 22nd thus removing them from lottery contention...

In fact, its a lot more realistic to think the Habs will lose their lottery pick because of the draft lottery

Get real man

P.S. - the fact you don't understand that a player like Markov cld greatly benefit from knowing his knee is sound heading into the offseason, makes me question whether this debate we're having is even worth it

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03-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by GeneralManager View Post
David Fischer > Claude Giroux?
Ben Maxwell > Milan Lucic?

As much as I like Timmins, he's not perfect. To me the pick that we are likely to get will turn into a good NHLer, but how good NOBODY knows. But we do know how good Andrei Markov is and i'd like to see what we have in that asset.
For the last time...Timmins DID NOT PICK FISHER. That was Gainey. Who went AGAINST what Timmins said.

And Ben Maxwell? He's not a first round choice...

And it's been said over and over how Timmins picks are the most consistent in generating NHL talent. Sure he didn't pick a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk (remind me which other team got this lucky again? Oh right. None.)

Timmins is the man. And I'm sure he has the team's best interest at heart and whoever he chooses to pick in the first round better stay the guy he picks and not get over turned by someone else who doesn't know **** about prospects.

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03-05-2012, 04:12 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Great... you can cherrypick some players who we didn't get, congratulations. You can do that for any scout in the league.

That means absolutely zero in what we're talking about here. For years Timmins has had to get what he can from mid round picks and we've gone without superstars. It makes absolutely no sense to try to argue that there's a benefit from drafting later. We should be giving him the best shot he can to get the best player we can.

It's not close to the same thing and you know it.
How is it not close to the same thing...all we need is to have Price get hot like he did during the 5 game winning streak not too long ago and it ruins our position. The way you are thinking is ridiculous. Anyway, I doubt Markov has that much of an impact where he pushes the Canadiens that far out of where they are. He needs to play for himself and for the team.

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03-05-2012, 04:12 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Let me ask you a question or rather propose a scenario...

Let's say Markov does come back the last 10 games but he plays awful but Price stands on his head and is the biggest reason Habs win 7 of 10 let's say...

What are you gonna say then?
I'm going to say that we shouldn't have played Markov.
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Its pretty ridiculous to assume a player who hasn't played any competitive hockey in almost 2 years cld singlehandedly make this team drop from 27th overall to 22nd thus removing them from lottery contention...
It's not ridiculous when you look at the schedule and standings.
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
In fact, its a lot more realistic to think the Habs will lose their lottery pick because of the draft lottery

Get real man

P.S. - the fact you don't understand that a player like Markov cld greatly benefit from knowing his knee is sound heading into the offseason, makes me question whether this debate we're having is even worth it
Markov isn't going to benefit "greatly" from playing. Give it a rest.

Will he be happy playing? No doubt. Can we gain some insight from his return? Sure.

But like I said, we should be planning the future without him in our plans anyway. We can't count on him to be healthy anymore.

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03-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #910
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I mean seriously, if your going to suggest Markov will hurt the chances of the Habs drafting in the top 5, then you might as well suggest they sit out Price, Subban, Gorges, DD, Pacio and Cole...maybe fire RC while at it and have Youppi coach the final 15 games

Pfffftttt!!!!

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03-05-2012, 04:14 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by The n00b King View Post
For the last time...Timmins DID NOT PICK FISHER. That was Gainey. Who went AGAINST what Timmins said.

And Ben Maxwell? He's not a first round choice...

And it's been said over and over how Timmins picks are the most consistent in generating NHL talent. Sure he didn't pick a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk (remind me which other team got this lucky again? Oh right. None.)

Timmins is the man. And I'm sure he has the team's best interest at heart and whoever he chooses to pick in the first round better stay the guy he picks and not get over turned by someone else who doesn't know **** about prospects.
Gainey went against Timmins? I'm pretty sure I've read not too long after he was picked that it was Timmins that fought for Fischer(and I'm a timmins fan). This is the first time I've that it was gainey that pushed for Fischer.

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03-05-2012, 04:14 PM
  #912
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Am I the only one who expects Markov to be absolutely terrible at first even if he's physically fine? He looked decent during his last 7 game stretch but it's been even longer now, and it's the end of the season. Honestly I'd be impressed if he's as good as Campoli.

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03-05-2012, 04:16 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Great... you can cherrypick some players who we didn't get, congratulations. You can do that for any scout in the league.

That means absolutely zero in what we're talking about here. For years Timmins has had to get what he can from mid round picks and we've gone without superstars. It makes absolutely no sense to try to argue that there's a benefit from drafting later. We should be giving him the best shot he can to get the best player we can.

It's not close to the same thing and you know it.
I can "cherry pick" way more than that if you want. The point is simple if the Habs are dead set on getting someone they will get that player. We have shown in the past that we will move assets to get the player we want. We are in a position to draft a good player regardless of how good markov plays...and quite frankly its pretty unrealistic to think you'll see a drastic overhaul of the teams performance costing us a top 5 pick. You were SO pessimistic during the "BELIEVE" threads being so adamant that we would have no chance to leap frog all the teams to get into the playoffs...but now you're thinking with Andrei Markov he can now leap frog us out of the lottery? Hypocrisy?

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03-05-2012, 04:19 PM
  #914
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Theres an exceptional difference between Grigorenko, Galchenyuk, Forsberg vs. Gaunce, Collberg, Faksa and Aberg.

Only Collberg and Aberg have the potential of being number 1 players, none of them the potential to be franchise players.
Tell 'hem like it is, yeahhh !! So you've seen Aberg play a whole lot this year ? He's been putting up good stats for an 18 year old in the SEL, but between his 2 injuries and the fact that he didnt't play in the WJC, it's been rather hard to catch a game of his. Now I guess you went out of your way to see him play on a livestream or something, but excuse me if don't believe your absolute statements about potential and such. It would be nice to have one of the top rated prospect, but most team's draft list don't look like the official lists from RLR, ISS or other agencies. Some of them might consider Collberg to be better than all the guys you mentionned above for example.

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03-05-2012, 04:22 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm going to say that we shouldn't have played Markov.

It's not ridiculous when you look at the schedule and standings.

Markov isn't going to benefit "greatly" from playing. Give it a rest.

Will he be happy playing? No doubt. Can we gain some insight from his return? Sure.

But like I said, we should be planning the future without him in our plans anyway. We can't count on him to be healthy anymore.
You know, it really surprises me coming from you that you don't see the benefit that it could bring Markov to play this year, the guy has been rehabbing ALL year, now that he's ready you're gonna tell him to take the rest of the year off?

He's been busting his *ss to play this year, how does that make ANY sense to you???

There's a HUGE mental barrier he is going to face until he actually plays whether you choose to acknowledge that or not, it is best for him and the organization to know that his knee is sound heading into this offseason.

Makes NO SENSE to keep a player that's healthy on the sidelines in order to secure an unsecurable draft pick

I've seen your post, you're way more intelligent and strong poster for me to actually believe, that's what you think

This putrid season by the Habs has made many fans delirious

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03-05-2012, 04:26 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by GeneralManager View Post
I can "cherry pick" way more than that if you want.
Sure, go ahead. It's not going to carry any more weight than your other post did.

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The point is simple if the Habs are dead set on getting someone they will get that player. We have shown in the past that we will move assets to get the player we want. We are in a position to draft a good player regardless of how good markov plays...and quite frankly its pretty unrealistic to think you'll see a drastic overhaul of the teams performance costing us a top 5 pick.
No we haven't.

We've gotten one top five pick in 25 years and it came via the lottery. So I'm not sure what makes you think that we can suddenly do this now without having that draft position to begin with.
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You were SO pessimistic during the "BELIEVE" threads being so adamant that we would have no chance to leap frog all the teams to get into the playoffs...but now you're thinking with Andrei Markov he can now leap frog us out of the lottery? Hypocrisy?
?

Dude, fact of the matter is that we're sitting here two points behind Carolina and aren't far behind the Islanders. We're close to the Oilers as well and we play ALL these teams.

Absolutely we could pass them.
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blah blah blah, i'm a Timmins fan...but he's not perfect...nobody is. But what is this jargon about Fischer not being his boy? He's a tall lanky american dman, seems pretty Timmins-like to me!
I'm sorry but this post is flat out stupid. There's absolutely no benefit to having a lower pick. None. All that happens there is that you give other teams the benefit of picking in front of you.

Nobody said Timmins was perfect. But to sit there and try to insinuate that we'd be better off with a lower pick makes no sense.


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03-05-2012, 04:31 PM
  #917
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blah blah blah, i'm a Timmins fan...but he's not perfect...nobody is. But what is this jargon about Fischer not being his boy? He's a tall lanky american dman, seems pretty Timmins-like to me!
I'm pretty sure even Gainey admitted not knowing anything about Fisher when he picked him.

I never said anyone was perfect, but if you want the closest thing, Timmins is that guy. The guy has a flair for picking NHL talent.

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03-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #918
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For the last time...Timmins DID NOT PICK FISHER. That was Gainey. Who went AGAINST what Timmins said.
Sounds like fiction. I know for a fact that it was a scout that pushed for Timmins because he coached him in the past.

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03-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #919
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Didn't Parise come back the last few games of a season from injury not too long ago?

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03-05-2012, 04:36 PM
  #920
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I would love to see a convo between the Habs brass and Markov, when he's ready to play and they tell him to sit out the rest of the year because they're trying to secure a draft pick they have no way of securing for a player they won't even know if he'll be there when they pick.

I'm sure that will go over well...lol

Maybe they could ask him to sit out next year too, Nathan McKinnon is slated to go #1

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03-05-2012, 04:37 PM
  #921
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I would love to see a convo between the Habs brass and Markov, when he's ready to play and they tell him to sit out the rest of the year because they're trying to secure a draft pick they have no way of securing for a player they won't even know if he'll be there when they pick.

I'm sure that will go over well...lol
At least it will give people other reasons to whine about how management and Gauthier are classless.

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03-05-2012, 05:06 PM
  #922
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I heard if Markov returns the fans aren't allowed to clap as the sound vibrations from 21,000+ clapping might damage his knees, but rather they're suppose to whistle like they use to do in the forum 30 years ago... or 40... long time ago.

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03-05-2012, 05:12 PM
  #923
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The Habs are already too down to make waves, so it's farfetched to believe that dressing Markov in one of last 15 or so games would risk falling out of the lottery bracket. Rather, it would be a preview of what we might expect for next season. Shouldn't we be relieved that he's approaching game readiness? Anyone who doesn't agree with that is fixated on dumping Gauthier. For the next few seasons, a healthy Markov would have a greater positive impact than the particular Russian the Habs draft. It's not clear which of the highly rated draft eligibles will have the best NHL career.

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03-05-2012, 05:55 PM
  #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The n00b King View Post
For the last time...Timmins DID NOT PICK FISHER. That was Gainey. Who went AGAINST what Timmins said.

And Ben Maxwell? He's not a first round choice...

And it's been said over and over how Timmins picks are the most consistent in generating NHL talent. Sure he didn't pick a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk (remind me which other team got this lucky again? Oh right. None.)

Timmins is the man. And I'm sure he has the team's best interest at heart and whoever he chooses to pick in the first round better stay the guy he picks and not get over turned by someone else who doesn't know **** about prospects.
And Maxwell was a great Junior who I thought would make it

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03-05-2012, 06:02 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by The n00b King View Post
The difference with the Islanders is that their management is even more incompetent than ours. Which is saying something.

I actually disagree on the statement that this team is far from being competitive; it's not.

All you have to do is compare it to a previous edition. This is the best team we've had, on paper, in over 10 years.

As I've mentioned in the past, there are three elements missing for this team to be good again.

1) A #1 Defense man. The stay at home kind, that can log big minutes and help protect leads.

2) Better coaching. Especially for the PP. An effective PP makes all the difference between a bottom feeder and a top end team. I brought up the stats in the past, and had the Habs been a middle of the pack team on the PP all season, we'd be comfortably sitting in the middle of top 8.

3) A center that doesn't get pushed around and can log in big minutes.

3a) Better GM. But this is not crucial.

That's it. That's all that's needed. The Habs biggest problem this year has been holding on to leads and scoring on the PP. Both those problems are fixed by having a better d-corps and better coaching. The line from great to **** is really not that thick.

Unfortunately, seeing the team lose the way it has this year has truly tainted many folk's opinions on the quality of the roster. But most of you are looking at it from an emotional perspective, not a technical perspective.

There is also the psychological effect. The players have no confidence in their management, so that causes the trickle-down effect of having incompetent managers and incompetent players. A change in philosophy would go a long way in telling the players "We're committed. Are you?"

I think that this summer will truly tell us everything we need to know about what kind of owner Molson is and will be. He will have the opportunity to really take this team to another level (like Detroit), or truly destroy it like the Islanders.
The Habs dont even need a big centre. Imagine adding Horton, Chara and Lucic

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