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top D for top offense

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:32 PM
  #1
bernmeister
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top D for top offense

After the season, before the draft, if Edmonton has 2012 2nd pick:

Girardi and Del Zotto
for
Taylor Hall and the 2nd pick overall

Discussion: Rangers sacrifice All Star D shutdown, shotblocker extraordinaire + MDZ is no slouch on D, but also exceptional +/-, not an offensive D like Doughty or Letang at rushing into the zone, but solid and sensible once there. Oilers get both up front.

For such an instant high quality 1st pair D, Oilers would be giving up one actual roster player a bonafide sniper in Hall. They would suffer the opportunity cost of that first rounder, although typically 1st rounders do not go directly to NHL. Even if conventional wisdom has a Russian F at the pick, it's not clear that at day 1, the guy will fit like hand in a glove, so he might be there contributing at some point but not likely fully contributing up to full potential in first year.

Obviously, losing any sniper without replacement on any team will hurt.
If Rangers lost Gaborik and didn't have likes of Parise to step in, no question it would hurt.

But Edmonton has Ryan Nugent Hopkins + Gagner and some nice potential, with horrible G and bad D. Can still do enough damage and improve if goals against is addressed.

Using the 2 on the best D in the draft --- assuming there is agreement --- is that wise? It's not c clear cut Adam Larsson....

Rangers would probably take another Russian and hope Anisimov gets him up to speed asap in terms of a blend into Torts system. Eventually, they almost can't go wrong with such a high pick if the guy is not a total bust. Ultimately, they come out ahead, Their D would take a big hit. But they need more balance, and Erixon could fill be one replacement right away.

So ...
Helps both sides? Neither? One not the other? Constructive comment always welcomed.

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:39 PM
  #2
5RingsAndABeer
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I don't think it would be worth it for Edmonton. NYR would have to add a bit.

The problem I have with it is that the likely 2nd overall in this year's draft is going to be a fantastic player. Chances are, it'll be a player with similar value to MDZ or Girardi. I wouldn't do Hall straight up for MDZ or Girardi.

Also I'd like to add that although Edmonton has some nice offensive players, we're still not a great offensive team at ES. We only have 170 GF total, which isn't actually that great. Losing Hall would be a massive blow to the offense as well.

And that's not even considering the non-hockey value Hall has - franchise player, fan favorite, intangibles, bromance with Ebs.

Would NYR consider 2012 2nd overall straight up for MDZ? I'd do that.

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:40 PM
  #3
lebdafor norris
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Value is not fair for EDM.

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:42 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
After the season, before the draft, if Edmonton has 2012 2nd pick:

Girardi and Del Zotto
for
Taylor Hall and the 2nd pick overall

Discussion: Rangers sacrifice All Star D shutdown, shotblocker extraordinaire + MDZ is no slouch on D, but also exceptional +/-, not an offensive D like Doughty or Letang at rushing into the zone, but solid and sensible once there. Oilers get both up front.

For such an instant high quality 1st pair D, Oilers would be giving up one actual roster player a bonafide sniper in Hall. They would suffer the opportunity cost of that first rounder, although typically 1st rounders do not go directly to NHL. Even if conventional wisdom has a Russian F at the pick, it's not clear that at day 1, the guy will fit like hand in a glove, so he might be there contributing at some point but not likely fully contributing up to full potential in first year.

Obviously, losing any sniper without replacement on any team will hurt.
If Rangers lost Gaborik and didn't have likes of Parise to step in, no question it would hurt.

But Edmonton has Ryan Nugent Hopkins + Gagner and some nice potential, with horrible G and bad D. Can still do enough damage and improve if goals against is addressed.

Using the 2 on the best D in the draft --- assuming there is agreement --- is that wise? It's not c clear cut Adam Larsson....

Rangers would probably take another Russian and hope Anisimov gets him up to speed asap in terms of a blend into Torts system. Eventually, they almost can't go wrong with such a high pick if the guy is not a total bust. Ultimately, they come out ahead, Their D would take a big hit. But they need more balance, and Erixon could fill be one replacement right away.

So ...
Helps both sides? Neither? One not the other? Constructive comment always welcomed.
With the pieces your asking from the Oilers, Staal better be going the other way. Not worth to the Oilers from an neutral perspective.

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:46 PM
  #5
IceDaddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
After the season, before the draft, if Edmonton has 2012 2nd pick:

Girardi and Del Zotto
for
Taylor Hall and the 2nd pick overall

Discussion: Rangers sacrifice All Star D shutdown, shotblocker extraordinaire + MDZ is no slouch on D, but also exceptional +/-, not an offensive D like Doughty or Letang at rushing into the zone, but solid and sensible once there. Oilers get both up front.

For such an instant high quality 1st pair D, Oilers would be giving up one actual roster player a bonafide sniper in Hall. They would suffer the opportunity cost of that first rounder, although typically 1st rounders do not go directly to NHL. Even if conventional wisdom has a Russian F at the pick, it's not clear that at day 1, the guy will fit like hand in a glove, so he might be there contributing at some point but not likely fully contributing up to full potential in first year.

Obviously, losing any sniper without replacement on any team will hurt.
If Rangers lost Gaborik and didn't have likes of Parise to step in, no question it would hurt.

But Edmonton has Ryan Nugent Hopkins + Gagner and some nice potential, with horrible G and bad D. Can still do enough damage and improve if goals against is addressed.

Using the 2 on the best D in the draft --- assuming there is agreement --- is that wise? It's not c clear cut Adam Larsson....

Rangers would probably take another Russian and hope Anisimov gets him up to speed asap in terms of a blend into Torts system. Eventually, they almost can't go wrong with such a high pick if the guy is not a total bust. Ultimately, they come out ahead, Their D would take a big hit. But they need more balance, and Erixon could fill be one replacement right away.

So ...
Helps both sides? Neither? One not the other? Constructive comment always welcomed.
I think NY has to add.

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:48 PM
  #6
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That is horrendous value for Edmonton

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:59 PM
  #7
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lol, awful for edmonton

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:06 PM
  #8
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Just outright terrible for EDM.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:08 PM
  #9
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Murray has the potential to be beyond those d-men. Not to mention you want to break up the kids. Let's just say Hall will not be in any trade talks for a number of years.

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03-05-2012, 04:08 PM
  #10
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Tambellini laughs in your face. That's terrible.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #11
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HAHAAHAHAH. I'm an Avs fan and this is one of the worst deals I've seen in awhile.
Counter: Dubinsky, Callahan, 1st in 2013 to Edm for:
Paajarvi & Petry

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:18 PM
  #12
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
I don't think it would be worth it for Edmonton. NYR would have to add a bit.

The problem I have with it is that the likely 2nd overall in this year's draft is going to be a fantastic player. Chances are, it'll be a player with similar value to MDZ or Girardi. I wouldn't do Hall straight up for MDZ or Girardi.

Also I'd like to add that although Edmonton has some nice offensive players, we're still not a great offensive team at ES. We only have 170 GF total, which isn't actually that great. Losing Hall would be a massive blow to the offense as well.

And that's not even considering the non-hockey value Hall has - franchise player, fan favorite, intangibles, bromance with Ebs.

Would NYR consider 2012 2nd overall straight up for MDZ? I'd do that.
Rangers need a sniper.
Would prefer Hall, who is a sniper, and not someone who may have other skills with higher potential but is less of a sniper.

Would have preferred Girardi + other overpay and not give up additional D where we have, but not in surplus abundance.

Overdid that to accommodate this deal.
MDZ has more potential. Consider MDZ for Hall
Consider Girardi + small + for the #2.

Remember, that pick is not gonna contribute on all cylinders on day 1.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #13
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Rangers take that deal all day.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:27 PM
  #14
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedea View Post
Murray has the potential to be beyond those d-men. Not to mention you want to break up the kids. Let's just say Hall will not be in any trade talks for a number of years.
Fair enough as to the rest of it. But even if Murray has the potential you think he does, and he'd have to be pretty friggin good to be better than an All Star or MDZ, is he playing for you next year? or does he need more seasoning?

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03-05-2012, 04:28 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Rangers need a sniper.
Would prefer Hall, who is a sniper, and not someone who may have other skills with higher potential but is less of a sniper.

Would have preferred Girardi + other overpay and not give up additional D where we have, but not in surplus abundance.

Overdid that to accommodate this deal.
MDZ has more potential. Consider MDZ for Hall
Consider Girardi + small + for the #2.

Remember, that pick is not gonna contribute on all cylinders on day 1.
Did I read that right? Are you saying MDZ = Hall?

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03-05-2012, 04:32 PM
  #16
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No dice. if you wanted Hall, you're looking around the value of Nash (for arguments sakes), and then you would add a possible 2nd overall too?

I'm sorry, but this is horrendous value for the Oilers. Staal, Giriardi, and MDZ for Hall and 2nd overall is definitely more realistic in terms of value, but both teams don't do it.

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03-05-2012, 04:36 PM
  #17
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Don't mind him everyone, Bernmeister has a Taylor Hall obsession and is dead set on acquiring Hall through any means possible. He actually thinks that Hall is available, too.

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03-05-2012, 04:36 PM
  #18
bernmeister
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I did ask for honest opinions and I appreciate same.

Behind this proposal is the thought that sure, you don't trade Ted Williams, but if you traded Ted Williams for Larry Doby and Bob Feller, or Ted Williams for Whitey Ford and Yogi Berra, the Sox win more games that way.

Hall is Edmonton's Ted Williams.
Enjoy and savor his greatness.
But if you want to accelerate development, you take some D and get some balance.

Whether this is the right combo (it certainly is first pair talent) or not is another question, which is why we're talking...

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03-05-2012, 04:40 PM
  #19
Phion Keneuf
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Hall >>> MDZ

2nd overall >>> Girardi


am i missing something in this trade?

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03-05-2012, 04:41 PM
  #20
ChrisKreider20
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Can we not?

We make our team worse by making that trade.
Having Hall over Del Zotto & Girardi makes our team worse. I don't really care if Hall has more 'value' because the result is us icing a worse hockey team - with a defense that is thin as hell. Let's not forget how popular these two are in the dressing room are...
The 2nd overall pick (Grigorenko) is being questioned by scouts and likely won't be an impact (if he is one, there are always questions even with the highest draft picks) for 2-3 years. By then Lundqvist and Gaborik are ending their primes.

Let's keep our good young puck moving defenseman, and let's keep our our all star shutdown dman. We can get a top line LWer other ways. There are other options like Parise, or Nash (if the price drops). Heck I'd rather sign Semin to a 1 year contract before shipping out Del Zotto & Girardi.

God I hate when people include Girardi in trades...

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03-05-2012, 04:43 PM
  #21
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
No dice. if you wanted Hall, you're looking around the value of Nash (for arguments sakes), and then you would add a possible 2nd overall too?

I'm sorry, but this is horrendous value for the Oilers. Staal, Giriardi, and MDZ for Hall and 2nd overall is definitely more realistic in terms of value, but both teams don't do it.
Nash was way overpriced, even at what Sather offered, forget about what that lunatic in Columbus wanted. But I get your point.

Does that mean you think Girardi + MDZ for just Hall would be close enough?
I think that's close but slightly too much but can be modified to a final deal.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:48 PM
  #22
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Hall >>> MDZ
2nd overall >>> Girardi
am i missing something in this trade?
The following post at #20 is a counter perspective to the one you suggested.

I think yours is more accurate but off as to degree, i.e.,
Hall> MDZ
2nd overal >>Girardi.

These are in a vaccum, however.
You would get 2 starters for first pair now.

Rangers would only get one starter.
We'd have to wait for that pick to contribute, and the longer we wait, the more quality we want..

Just added factors to consider.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:59 PM
  #23
YoSoGordo
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Eww imagine the oilers lw,
Prv (seems to be improvin but definetely not a #1 lw
Smyth (plays half the season)
Eager
Hordichuck

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:03 PM
  #24
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MDZ
Kreider
McDonaugh
for

Hall

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:14 PM
  #25
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoSoGordo View Post
Eww imagine the oilers lw,
Prv (seems to be improvin but definetely not a #1 lw
Smyth (plays half the season)
Eager
Hordichuck
Yeah, but consider your D as it is now....

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