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Old
03-03-2012, 05:22 AM
  #76
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Sign Artyukhin in the offseason guys!

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Old
03-04-2012, 08:55 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No it hasn't.
Remember when Boychuk tried to take PK completely out? Ryan White didn't hesitate a second before rushing in and punching the crap out of him. The kid understands his role.
You're the one that likes to believe that it actually has changed something, but it really hasn't. Things are exactly as they were.
We still blow leads up, we still have a lot of problem on the D, we still don't score all that much, we still have Plekanec used as a 3rd liner, we still have Gomez used on the PP and now, more so than Plekanec.

Fans in Mtl have been missing this aspect of the game so much that they actually believe it is incredibly impactful, but it really isn't. It really doesn't have much bearing on the end result of a game. It might happen once in a blue moon, but generally speaking, it really doesn't change a whole lot. Some guys might feel better, some might even feel like the team is a little more united, but at the end of the day, it doesn't make you put a puck in the net any better.
Seems to me you're trying to not see it. Ever since we got Staubtiz, White has been going on a tear, the kid is energized like i've never seen him before. After the first match with Staubitz in uniform, White was saying how great it was to have a guy like that in uniform. You've never played the game so you don't know how it is having another brother-in-arm going to war with you. It has made a HUGE difference. And PK also mentioned it. It's always easier going to war with actual warriors that gonna put everything on the line for you. Cole works hard but if he sees a teamate getting beat, he'll take issue with it and drop the gloves to send the message that you don't do that to a teamate. Cole is the kind that would hit a guy and apologizes later on. With need guys that are gonna intimidate.

Hell even all the other tighasses who like European hockey like Francois Gagon have admited that things has been different lately.

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Old
03-04-2012, 06:46 PM
  #78
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Toughness does not equate to goal production.
The Flyers of 73,74 were not the most prolific team in history.

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03-04-2012, 08:46 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Seems to me you're trying to not see it. Ever since we got Staubtiz, White has been going on a tear, the kid is energized like i've never seen him before. After the first match with Staubitz in uniform, White was saying how great it was to have a guy like that in uniform. You've never played the game so you don't know how it is having another brother-in-arm going to war with you. It has made a HUGE difference. And PK also mentioned it. It's always easier going to war with actual warriors that gonna put everything on the line for you. Cole works hard but if he sees a teamate getting beat, he'll take issue with it and drop the gloves to send the message that you don't do that to a teamate. Cole is the kind that would hit a guy and apologizes later on. With need guys that are gonna intimidate.

Hell even all the other tighasses who like European hockey like Francois Gagon have admited that things has been different lately.
Things have been different alright. We are currently in one of the worst stretches in the modern history of this franchise and we are going to finish the season with possibly our worst position in the standings since before World War II. We got beaten at home last night by the coldest and most vulnerable team in the league and we barely created any scoring chances. Glad we're playing tougher.

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03-04-2012, 08:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Things have been different alright. We are currently in one of the worst stretches in the modern history of this franchise and we are going to finish the season with possibly our worst position in the standings since before World War II. We got beaten at home last night by the coldest and most vulnerable team in the league and we barely created any scoring chances. Glad we're playing tougher.
Cool, so instead we'll just continue to play soft and still get beat.

Some of you whiners are incredible.

At least if we're gonna go down we can show some anger and hate and aggression, and maybe entertain some people to boot. I can gaurantee you Palushaj and the rest dont entertain anyone.

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Old
03-04-2012, 11:19 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Things have been different alright. We are currently in one of the worst stretches in the modern history of this franchise and we are going to finish the season with possibly our worst position in the standings since before World War II. We got beaten at home last night by the coldest and most vulnerable team in the league and we barely created any scoring chances. Glad we're playing tougher.
Do you still support Pierre Gauthier?

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Old
03-05-2012, 03:20 AM
  #82
Beendair Donedat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Things have been different alright. We are currently in one of the worst stretches in the modern history of this franchise and we are going to finish the season with possibly our worst position in the standings since before World War II. We got beaten at home last night by the coldest and most vulnerable team in the league and we barely created any scoring chances. Glad we're playing tougher.
Written as if toughness was the reason the Habs were terrible all year!! What a joke. The team lost with the same bunch of gutless wonders they had all year, minus Kostitsyn and Cammelleri. Staubitz has played THREE games for the Habs. Ryan White has played NINE.

Your figure skating heroes were brutal long before the Habs finally added some toughness. Pathetic attempt on your part to blame the season on toughness.

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Old
03-05-2012, 10:02 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Seems to me you're trying to not see it. Ever since we got Staubtiz, White has been going on a tear, the kid is energized like i've never seen him before. After the first match with Staubitz in uniform, White was saying how great it was to have a guy like that in uniform. You've never played the game so you don't know how it is having another brother-in-arm going to war with you. It has made a HUGE difference. And PK also mentioned it. It's always easier going to war with actual warriors that gonna put everything on the line for you. Cole works hard but if he sees a teamate getting beat, he'll take issue with it and drop the gloves to send the message that you don't do that to a teamate. Cole is the kind that would hit a guy and apologizes later on. With need guys that are gonna intimidate.

Hell even all the other tighasses who like European hockey like Francois Gagon have admited that things has been different lately.
First off, not only have I played 10years of hockey through juniors as a Dman, but I am a big guy myself and often got into scraps.
Second, I absolutely know, having gone through it myself, that everybody feels more secure when you go into a game with big tough guys around that have your back. Nobody ever argued against that.
What I am saying is, does it hold any impact on the end result of the game though? No, it doesn't.
Will it make a player get out of his funk? No, it won't.

So, you think White was re-energized. What about his first game back? He was amazing, but then what, he got tired? Of course White is going to love having another fighter there, he's the same type of player, it'll pump him up. So what? Aren't we still losing? Aren't we still blowing leads? Yes, we are.
Oh, but PK said it's good because they'll stick up for one another more now. Okay great. Now, let's not talk about what is really important, like winning.

Where is this huge difference that you talk of. What world do you live in seriously.
There is barely any difference in the game, and there's no difference in the end result. Our players feel more secure and stick up for one another more? Woohoo...
We still don't show up for the games though, well, we do for one period. After that it's still sucking time.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not even against having players like that, especially if we're to have such a useless 4th line as we have all year. But let's not pretend like it makes a world of a difference. Malkin makes a HUGE difference, not Brad freaking Staubitz. Leave your bubble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
Cool, so instead we'll just continue to play soft and still get beat.

Some of you whiners are incredible.

At least if we're gonna go down we can show some anger and hate and aggression, and maybe entertain some people to boot. I can gaurantee you Palushaj and the rest dont entertain anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Written as if toughness was the reason the Habs were terrible all year!! What a joke. The team lost with the same bunch of gutless wonders they had all year, minus Kostitsyn and Cammelleri. Staubitz has played THREE games for the Habs. Ryan White has played NINE.

Your figure skating heroes were brutal long before the Habs finally added some toughness. Pathetic attempt on your part to blame the season on toughness.
Did you guys even take the time to read what he was answering to?

He quoted a guy saying Staubitz has made a ''HUGE difference'', which is absolutely ridiculous.
We are still playing just as bad, if not worse given AK-Gill's departure, with 2wins in last 10games, we look absolutely horrible out there, to the point where people get overjoyed with seeing a fight and a couple checks, but only 8 shots on net.
It's pathetic.

We are absolute garbage out there.

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Old
03-05-2012, 11:50 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
First off, not only have I played 10years of hockey through juniors as a Dman, but I am a big guy myself and often got into scraps.
Second, I absolutely know, having gone through it myself, that everybody feels more secure when you go into a game with big tough guys around that have your back. Nobody ever argued against that.
What I am saying is, does it hold any impact on the end result of the game though? No, it doesn't.
Will it make a player get out of his funk? No, it won't.

So, you think White was re-energized. What about his first game back? He was amazing, but then what, he got tired? Of course White is going to love having another fighter there, he's the same type of player, it'll pump him up. So what? Aren't we still losing? Aren't we still blowing leads? Yes, we are.
Oh, but PK said it's good because they'll stick up for one another more now. Okay great. Now, let's not talk about what is really important, like winning.

Where is this huge difference that you talk of. What world do you live in seriously.
There is barely any difference in the game, and there's no difference in the end result. Our players feel more secure and stick up for one another more? Woohoo...
We still don't show up for the games though, well, we do for one period. After that it's still sucking time.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not even against having players like that, especially if we're to have such a useless 4th line as we have all year. But let's not pretend like it makes a world of a difference. Malkin makes a HUGE difference, not Brad freaking Staubitz. Leave your bubble.
I hate how every discussions turns into insults with you. I guess those that hate the physical play are the real bullies.

The season is over, it doesn't matter if we have one more gritty guy, it's a bad team. Period. But you seem to agree with me that the presence give the team more courage, right? That's a great step in the right direction as far the players sticking with one another, as having more team spirit.

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Old
03-05-2012, 12:01 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Fans in Mtl have been missing this aspect of the game so much that they actually believe it is incredibly impactful, but it really isn't. It really doesn't have much bearing on the end result of a game. It might happen once in a blue moon, but generally speaking, it really doesn't change a whole lot. Some guys might feel better, some might even feel like the team is a little more united, but at the end of the day, it doesn't make you put a puck in the net any better.
Worth repeating because it's so completely true. The Habs have been the skinny kid that's been picked on for so long that we're drunk with our new-found power to hit back. Feels good. But as Kriss said, let's not confuse our size and strength with talent. Let's not confuse our tough team with a good team. Yes, toughness is definitely one piece of the puzzle; now all we need is about six or seven other missing pieces.

And please, please, PLEASE can people stop using the ridiculous comeback, "You never played the game!". First of all, it's ignorant. We have no idea who has and hasn't played, and at what level. Second, it's a lame personal insult once you've run out of logic. Gather any dozen of us who have played the game and you'll still get 12 different opinions.

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03-05-2012, 12:05 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
The season is over, it doesn't matter if we have one more gritty guy, it's a bad team. Period. But you seem to agree with me that the presence give the team more courage, right? That's a great step in the right direction as far the players sticking with one another, as having more team spirit.
My comment above was aimed at you, but your last post sounds very reasonable. Almost all of us are happy that we've made some step forward with a more physical presence. Of course, it was the only step forward we were able to take. Still, it's something.

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03-05-2012, 04:49 PM
  #87
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Toughness does not equate to goal production.
The Flyers of 73,74 were not the most prolific team in history.
They made a team quit...

In 4 games habs fighting majros went up 50%

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Old
03-05-2012, 07:00 PM
  #88
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I remember the '74 and '75 Flyers very well. They were nasty SOBs, but they also had real scoring talent in Clarke, MacLeish, Leach and Barber. Toughness alone got them nowhere.

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03-05-2012, 07:52 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
I remember the '74 and '75 Flyers very well. They were nasty SOBs, but they also had real scoring talent in Clarke, MacLeish, Leach and Barber. Toughness alone got them nowhere.
But those 4 guys alone would got them nowhere The Canadiens had much more talent but the toughness of the Flyers won the Stanley Cup. It's a mix of different players and different skills.

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03-05-2012, 10:41 PM
  #90
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Real TEAM toughness isnt brought by one guy. Its brought by a team full of guys who are close and willing to stand up for each other.

Its more about mentality than any one guy you add.

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03-05-2012, 10:48 PM
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Real TEAM toughness isnt brought by one guy. Its brought by a team full of guys who are close and willing to stand up for each other.

Its more about mentality than any one guy you add.
thing is that adding "one guy" can go a long LONG way to affecting the mentality of the other guys...

if every guy feels even 1% "tougher" because he knows he has the support of a a guy with the fists to hold the other teams tough guys accountable, then all of a sudden the whole team's toughness "quotient" improves by a large margin.


I dislike fighting, and hate having a pure "goon" in the lineup... but unless you have several seriously "tough" players sprinkled throughout the lineup ("tough" in the physically imposing sense, not in the "gionta is "tough" b/c he goes to the tough areas despite his size b.s), in the current NHL, having an enforcer type is almost a necessity.


when you're defense features:
Diaz
Kaberle
Weber
Campoli

with only Subban, Gorges & Emelin to complement them, you have a serious lack of toughness that needs a "staubitz" type in the lineup to keep the Mike Brown's of the world a little more in check & to give the rest of the guys a little more confidence sticking up for themselves, knowing a guy with the actual toughness to back it up is backing them up.

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Old
03-05-2012, 10:50 PM
  #92
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I hate how every discussions turns into insults with you. I guess those that hate the physical play are the real bullies.

The season is over, it doesn't matter if we have one more gritty guy, it's a bad team. Period. But you seem to agree with me that the presence give the team more courage, right? That's a great step in the right direction as far the players sticking with one another, as having more team spirit.
I'm not sure how I insulted you really, but wtv.


As for the ''great step in the right direction'' comment, well, the team has absolutely no direction right now. None. Staubitz is also set to become an UFA, so who knows what will happen next year.
As I said, if it's to have a crappy line with Palushaj or Engqvist, might as well bring in a goonish type instead.
But as you just mentioned, the season is over, so it really doesn't matter what happens this year. It'll be interesting to see what management decides this summer.

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03-05-2012, 11:35 PM
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thing is that adding "one guy" can go a long LONG way to affecting the mentality of the other guys...

if every guy feels even 1% "tougher" because he knows he has the support of a a guy with the fists to hold the other teams tough guys accountable, then all of a sudden the whole team's toughness "quotient" improves by a large margin.

I dislike fighting, and hate having a pure "goon" in the lineup... but unless you have several seriously "tough" players sprinkled throughout the lineup ("tough" in the physically imposing sense, not in the "gionta is "tough" b/c he goes to the tough areas despite his size b.s), in the current NHL, having an enforcer type is almost a necessity.

when you're defense features:
Diaz
Kaberle
Weber
Campoli

with only Subban, Gorges & Emelin to complement them, you have a serious lack of toughness that needs a "staubitz" type in the lineup to keep the Mike Brown's of the world a little more in check & to give the rest of the guys a little more confidence sticking up for themselves, knowing a guy with the actual toughness to back it up is backing them up.
Thats a problem I'd rather solve by ditching Campoli and trading Weber and bringing in 20 minute per game physical D man.

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03-06-2012, 09:48 AM
  #94
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Thats a problem I'd rather solve by ditching Campoli and trading Weber and bringing in 20 minute per game physical D man.
absolutely... but when your management team does the opposite, going out and waisting the cap space needed to try to get such a player on another soft/fragile bottom pairing dman, then your options get limited pretty quickly.


I'm all for building a roster with team toughness instead of relying on a few goons to up the "toughness" identity of your team, but with how this roster has been assembled & where our cap $$ are currently allocated, it becomes very difficult to go out and spend on the Stuart/Jackman types.

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03-06-2012, 10:15 AM
  #95
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absolutely... but when your management team does the opposite, going out and waisting the cap space needed to try to get such a player on another soft/fragile bottom pairing dman, then your options get limited pretty quickly.


I'm all for building a roster with team toughness instead of relying on a few goons to up the "toughness" identity of your team, but with how this roster has been assembled & where our cap $$ are currently allocated, it becomes very difficult to go out and spend on the Stuart/Jackman types.
With Cammy, Gill, Akost already gone
and
with Laraque's buyout and Campoli about to be next
and
with ditching Gomez via Hamilton or an amnesty buyout

There is room to re-sign Price, Subban and others necessary, add our high pick if he can crack the roster, and add a top 6 wing and a top 4 D (assuming neither guy is a cap busting contract like Parise or Suter)

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03-06-2012, 10:28 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
With Cammy, Gill, Akost already gone
and
with Laraque's buyout and Campoli about to be next
and
with ditching Gomez via Hamilton or an amnesty buyout

There is room to re-sign Price, Subban and others necessary, add our high pick if he can crack the roster, and add a top 6 wing and a top 4 D (assuming neither guy is a cap busting contract like Parise or Suter)
posted this in another thread:
Quote:
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this is our roster for next year if we basically maintain the status quo...

modest raises for most of our RFA's, plus big raises for our two "gems" (Subban ~5M$ & Price ~6M$ is what I expect, +/- 500-750k)

and re-signing Moen/Darche at roughly same cap hit.

amazingly (and sadly) leaves us with a roster slightly over the current cap, with zero upgrades...

That Gomez/Kaberle & the 11.5M$ of cap space they use up NEED to be moved, pretty much goes without saying...

but until it happens, looks like we'll be in line for another "playoff's at best/ 6-10th" type season for 2012-2013.



CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Erik Cole ($4.500m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m) / Rene Bourque ($3.333m)
Louis Leblanc ($1.170m) / Lars Eller ($1.850m) / Blake Geoffrion ($1.062m)
Travis Moen ($1.750m) / Ryan White ($0.825m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m)

DEFENSEMEN
P.K. Subban ($4.875m) / Josh Gorges ($3.900m)
Raphael Diaz ($1.400m) / Alexei Emelin ($1.400m)
Yannick Weber ($0.850m) / Tomas Kaberle ($4.250m)
Andrei Markov ($5.750m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.250m) / Peter Budaj ($1.150m)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,847,976; BONUSES: $300,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$547,976

so yes, IF we do move Gomez (and Kaberle, I hope), then we have 7.4-12M$ in cap space to go out and target a guy like Stuart or Jackman...

but that is a big IF, regardless of how obvious it seems to all of us, PG & the current management team have proven themselves capable of worse decisions.

it also requires us to be able to land one of those players.

Outside of those 2 (Stuart/Jackman), and the obvious gem (Suter), there really isn't anyone else available as a UFA that falls into the ~20min/game "tough as nails" type.

Allen
Sarich
Souray
O'Brien

... that's what's left otherwise, not exactly "20min" types.


Optimistically, Gomez/Kaberle will be gone, and one of Suter/Stuart/Jackman will be in a habs jersey... realistically, odds aren't in our favour for that to happen.

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Old
03-06-2012, 12:53 PM
  #97
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Gomez has to go.

And we need to figure out what the cap will be as well. You are also assuming no cap increase. Its hard to know that because being in Winnipeg over Atlanta has no doubt raised revenues, but the 56% number might also drop in the new CBA, so the actual cap number could change and we don't know which way yet, and how that will be dealt with.

As for defence I'd go after

B. Jackman
B. Stuart
B. Allen
N. Grossman (low PIMs but lots of hits)
M. Jurcina

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Old
03-06-2012, 06:43 PM
  #98
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
I remember the '74 and '75 Flyers very well. They were nasty SOBs, but they also had real scoring talent in Clarke, MacLeish, Leach and Barber. Toughness alone got them nowhere.
Ed Snyder was saying that the year before they became the BSB, they were pretty abused. In fact the Flyers had been abused for a few years. And when they made the change, they completly changed the team makeup, adding countless tough guys from the minors. And in a relatively short span they became the most feared team in the league and they started winning games after games. Sure they had Clarke but the intimidation was a big part of why it was hard to play against the Flyers. They bullied their way to the top and teams were literaly shaking when they played at the Spectrum. And it took the Habs to take it to them physicaly after a huge brawl to shut them up. Then the Habs won the series against them and it was all over for the BSB.

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03-06-2012, 06:45 PM
  #99
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I'm not sure how I insulted you really, but wtv.
.
"What world do you live in seriously"

"Leave your Bubble"


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03-06-2012, 06:50 PM
  #100
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during the habs glory years they ALWAYS had enforcer types from ferguson to chartraw to nilan to kordic etc...
habs surrounded their skill guys, their 'flying Frenchmen' with mean tough protectors that were able to handle the BSB
also in 86 and 93 we had enforcers...
this team needs size and nastiness - and an edge.
staubitz and white are a start. we need someone on D. maybe tinordi is that guy.
go watch NJ / NYR two 'elite' teams that have enough room in their lineups to dress boulton, prust, scott, rupp and jannsen + tough gritty guys like dubinsky, callahan, bickell and clarkson.
how about boston? thornton, mcquaid, lucic, chara
and we don't need tough guys with jam?
give me a ****ing break

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